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  #121  
Old 03-02-2017, 09:36 AM
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The Spanish press agency Europa Press also published yesterday that according to diplomatic sources both countries were working to recover the visit this year, but that they had problems in finding dates

Reino Unido ofrece a los Reyes reprogramar en 2017 su visita de Estado
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  #122  
Old 03-02-2017, 09:53 AM
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I really want this visit to take place. According to the press, the visit should take place in June. It should be announced after the state visit of the Spanish Kings to Japan.
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  #123  
Old 03-06-2017, 04:38 PM
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According to this Spanish web the visit could be the 6, 7 and 8 of June

Los Reyes Felipe y Letizia visitarán en junio en Reino Unido a Isabel II
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  #124  
Old 03-06-2017, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by lula View Post
According to this Spanish web the visit could be the 6, 7 and 8 of June

Los Reyes Felipe y Letizia visitarán en junio en Reino Unido a Isabel II
Thanks lula! I'm really looking forward to this visit. It will be the first state visit to the UK by an European monarch since Queen Margrethe II's state visit in 2000. The Norwegian royal family's official visit in 2005 resembled a state visit and included a carriage procession (without the Queen) and a state banquet.
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  #125  
Old 03-06-2017, 07:04 PM
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Will the King's recent comments concerning Gibraltar not have affect on the possibility of a state visit.
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  #126  
Old 03-06-2017, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by RoyalHighness 2002 View Post
Will the King's recent comments concerning Gibraltar not have affect on the possibility of a state visit.
Those comments were made in September - if you are referring to a recent blog posting.

The issues re Gibraltar were there when the original visit was proposed, so nothings changed (for decades!)
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  #127  
Old 03-07-2017, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cepe View Post
Those comments were made in September - if you are referring to a recent blog posting.

The issues re Gibraltar were there when the original visit was proposed, so nothings changed (for decades!)
The original invite was in the lead up to the EU referendum. David Cameron was looking to build support from other European countries, to try and convince them to give him a good 'deal' to convince us to vote to stay. Hence the Queen's visits to France, Italy and Germany, the important European countries, in the preceding 2 years. Seen in that context the invite made some sense even if it was misjudged.

It all turned out to be a complete waste of time as we know. Cameron wasn't given a deal he could sell by those states and the sight of the Queen with the other European heads of state didn't garner any pro-European warmth among the British people.

This state visit is now an utter waste of money, effort and time. Felipe went to the UN, denounced the UK as colonisers in a quite extraordinary way and supports denying the people of Gibraltar their fundamental right to self-determination (unbelievable in the 21st Century!). That alone should have been enough to withdraw any future invite but I suppose HM is too polite to do so.

But, people on this board seem to be obsessed with seeing British royals with other royals for whatever reason amid tiaras and orders and fancy outfits
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  #128  
Old 03-07-2017, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lula View Post
According to this Spanish web the visit could be the 6, 7 and 8 of June

Los Reyes Felipe y Letizia visitarán en junio en Reino Unido a Isabel II
That would be great news if it went ahead!
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  #129  
Old 03-07-2017, 03:58 PM
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Spain has been whinging about Gibraltar since forever. The Spanish government forced Queen Sofia to turn down an invitation to The Queen's Diamond Jubilee lunch in 2012.

Personally, though, I do believe they get along. Not sure what HM thinks of Felipe.
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  #130  
Old 03-07-2017, 04:18 PM
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I suppose HM is too polite to do so.
Indeed She is, as well as mentioning Spain's OWN history of Colonisation, and the striking similarity in the positions of Gibraltar , Ceuta and Melilla..
Sadly only HM Government can revoke the invitation..
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  #131  
Old 03-07-2017, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by PetticoatLane View Post
Felipe went to the UN, denounced the UK as colonisers in a quite extraordinary way and supports denying the people of Gibraltar their fundamental right to self-determination (unbelievable in the 21st Century!).
Agree!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetticoatLane View Post
That alone should have been enough to withdraw any future invite but I suppose HM is too polite to do so.
The Government decides, not HM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetticoatLane View Post
But, people on this board seem to be obsessed with seeing British royals with other royals for whatever reason amid tiaras and orders and fancy outfits
The reason why I look forward to this visit has nothing to do with fancy outfits (something I don't care about at all) tiaras and orders. That's because there are 17 years since we last had a state visit from a European monarch to the UK.

But I agree that the majority of new and remaining former members here seems to be most interested in fashion etc. I try to start historical discussions (as the Sapphire Jubilee), but nobody seems to care.

I think I'm going to take a long break from this forum (again) after King Harald and Queen Sonja's 80th birthday celebrations in May.
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  #132  
Old 03-07-2017, 05:50 PM
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That would be great news if it went ahead!
King Felipe will probably become a Knight of the Garter, but which Spanish orders is he likely to bestow on the British royals ? No heir to the throne other than the Prince of Asturias has ever been given the Order of the Golden Fleece, but Charles already has the Order of Charles III, so do you think he might become a Knight of the Golden Fleece ? I also imagine that Camilla, William and Kate might get the Order of Isabella the Catholic.
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  #133  
Old 03-07-2017, 05:59 PM
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Felipe will certainly become a Knight of the Garter. Don't know anything about Spanish orders to comment.
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  #134  
Old 03-07-2017, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
Indeed She is, as well as mentioning Spain's OWN history of Colonisation, and the striking similarity in the positions of Gibraltar , Ceuta and Melilla..
Sadly only HM Government can revoke the invitation..
Apples and oranges (as always when the Gibraltar – Ceuta&Melilla thing arises). I think we all can benefit of putting some facts into context, shall we? Because using Ceuta and Melilla as scapegoats is quite unfair and almost offensive for a Spanish like me.

Summary: NO, Ceuta and Melilla ARE NOT like Gibraltar.

Argumentation:

1- Legal status, or What is a colony (and What is not):

You said it before: Spain, just as Britain, has a colonizer past. But Spain, unlike Britain, DOES NOT HOLD any colony nowadays. Not only Ceuta and Melilla are not colonies today, they never were on the first place.

The United Nations Chart contains a Declaration Concerning Non-Self-Governing Territories, a list of places that the United Nations General Assembly deems to be "non-self-governing" and subject to the decolonization process. The list was first established in 1946. Some of the original territories have been removed and others have been added. Gibraltar has been on the list since 1946 and remains, even after the various referendums in which the locals manifested their wish to remain as a British colony. The current list can be found here (no hint of Ceuta/Melilla. We’ll explain that): http://www.un.org/en/events/nonselfg...overning.shtml

To be removed from that list has been a long ambition of the sucesive governments of Gibraltar. Actually, it’s quite difficult that, given their current legal and political status, they can cease to be considered a colony. Many countries mantain some overseas territories. For instance, and just choosing a different example from Spain or Britain, the overseas French territories: French Guiane, Guadeloupe, Martinique, etc. These are not considered colonies, but overseas national lands. Why is so? Overseas regions have exactly the same legal status as mainland France’s regions: they have representation in the French Parliament, their inhabitants are French citizens in equal status and rights, they vote in the Presidential Elections. And, maybe above all, all the French laws and regulations apply (mainly) in those territories in the same way than they do in the mainlands. They are, to all effects, as much as a French territory as Provence.

That is equally the status of Ceuta and Melilla to Spain. They are considered part of the autonomous communities of Spain, with an autonomy and dependence from the State equal to any other region of Spain (same as the autonomous community of Madrid, for instance), their citizens are Spanish, they can vote in the same conditions and to the same elections as every Spaniard, they have representation at the parlament (as all autonomies do) and the Spanish constitution and laws apply there in the same way as it does in the rest of the country.

Gibraltar is a whole different story to these cases. It is no part of the United Kingdom, although it’s administrated by it and, although individually their citizens hold all the rights of every British citizen, they have no representation at the parlament and (and this is the question where every concern lies) they have their own legal system, although mainly base don the English one, but with their own constitution and laws approved by their own parliament. Moreover, when the UK joined the EU, a significant part of the negotiations was to mantain Gibraltar out from many of the European common legislation, quite significantly the common customs territories and the common comercial policy and it is, if I remember it correctly, the only territory inside the EU with such an “special” legal status. That is what has lead Gibraltar to become a tax haven and a nest of smuggling.

I assure you, you’ll never find such an enormous and problematic legal hole in Ceuta and Melilla.

2- The “Historical” status (you can never claim what never belonged to you)

The history of “occupation” of Gibraltar and Ceuta and Melilla is so different that it is actually the cause for such a different legal status.

It’s Morocco who claims the soberanity in Ceuta and Melilla against Spain. But, while Ceuta has been a Spanish territory for 420 years and, before of that, a Portuguese one for 84, and Melilla has been Spanish for over 500 years, Morocco only exists as an independent State since 1956. Morocco was before that a French – Spanish Protectorate, but Ceuta and Melilla had been complete Spanish territories for a lot longer than that, and for that reason they could not be claimed by Morocco at the time of its Independence.

In Ceuta and Melilla’s case, the historical relation with the Iberian territories is such that, even in the Middle Ages and under the Muslim occupation of Spain, they were under the Cordoba’s Caliphate ruling. They were always either under the peninsular ruling or that of small independent kingdoms in the North of Africa.

If we base the claims for the cities in History, only Portugal could call for Ceuta, because any other State that occupied them before Spain does no longer exist.

Once again, completely different story to Gibraltar. Gibraltar was part of Spain's territories until 1704, when it was occupied by the English Crown, during the course of the Spanish Succession Wars (together with the island of Menorca, that was later given back to Spain –in the 19th century, I think). It was King Felipe V of Bourbon, the winner at the war, who granted the sovereignty over Gibraltar (and Menorca) to Britain, through the Utrecht Treatry in 1713. A treatry, by the way, that has been constantly transgressed by Gibraltar and the UK, blatantly occupating the established neutral area that conforms the border between the two countries (among other ways, by building there the city’s airport).

I don’t know if the qualification of the UN as non-self-governing territory, or the breaking of the original Treatry’s terms by the UK are enough reason for Spain to claim back the sovereignty of Gibraltar against the opinions of the locals showed on the polls. IMO it's not, and I could not care less.

But wouldn’t it be nice if, for just one time, the UK would not try to hide the “no international laws” status and the problematic that the “special snowflake” legislation of Gibraltar causes to Spain and to the EU under those childish claims that Spain “does the same” because that is simply FALSE.
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  #135  
Old 03-07-2017, 07:16 PM
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And after that good explanation, based on historical facts and international legality ... other comments...

- Spain and the United Kingdom have many common interests and they are two countries condemned to understand each other. Gibraltar is one of the reasons, its future after the Brexit is very complicated, and the agreements with Spain are going to be necessary. The very important economic relations and the situation of migrants (both countries are one of the main emigration destination of the other) also force dialogue.

- The visit may now be more a priority for UK than for Spain:

Spain is one of the big countries of the European Union that is not pending elections this year, and also has a conservative and moderate government. Spain is another monarchy, historical and family ties are strong. There is even a territorial conflict between the two countries. It's a good way to show, that in spite of everything, relations will continue to be good. The Royal Family, with the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge's upcoming trips to France, Germany, and Poland, is being used to improve ties with Europe. (Or are these trips also unnecessary and must be canceled?)

A meeting of two important European monarchies will give lots of material and joy to the press. With the controversy with Trump's visit and his whims, it will be a good distraction.

For the Spanish Government and for King Felipe is not an easy trip, because Spain is a country quite pro Europe. Also the international agenda this year is very full ... King Felipe traveled to Saudi Arabia in January, he and Queen Letizia will travel to Japan in April and Morocco in the coming months... would be enough royal visits for this year. In addition to other scheduled trips.

- King Felipe and Queen Letizia did not make a presentation visit to the United Kingdom, both countries decided directly on a State Visit. It is the meeting of two monarchies important in world history. The meeting of the longest-living monarch on the throne in Europe, with the most recent King... and that together they reunite the history of many European dynasties. That is what makes this visit wonderful ...
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  #136  
Old 03-07-2017, 08:10 PM
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Thanks to Rudolph and Dman for your kind words!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
King Felipe will probably become a Knight of the Garter, but which Spanish orders is he likely to bestow on the British royals ? No heir to the throne other than the Prince of Asturias has ever been given the Order of the Golden Fleece, but Charles already has the Order of Charles III, so do you think he might become a Knight of the Golden Fleece ? I also imagine that Camilla, William and Kate might get the Order of Isabella the Catholic.
Perhaps some of the Spanish members here can explain which Spanish orders Felipe is likely to bestow on British royals (If this visit happens)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lula View Post
The meeting of the longest-living monarch on the throne in Europe, with the most recent King... and that together they reunite the history of many European dynasties. That is what makes this visit wonderful ...
Agree!
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  #137  
Old 03-08-2017, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
King Felipe will probably become a Knight of the Garter, but which Spanish orders is he likely to bestow on the British royals ? No heir to the throne other than the Prince of Asturias has ever been given the Order of the Golden Fleece, but Charles already has the Order of Charles III, so do you think he might become a Knight of the Golden Fleece ? I also imagine that Camilla, William and Kate might get the Order of Isabella the Catholic.
I think is doubtful Prince Charles will get the Golden Fleece. The Order has always been given to kings, queens and people the Spanish crown wants to specially recognise ie, Sarkozy former President of France.

One of the reasons I'm doubtful Charles will get t is reading the other day in the Dinastias forum that Queen Sofia, after a lifetime of service to Spain, does not have the Golden Fleece. Incredible.

Annie. lula

I'm so glad you answered. Most people have no idea how much Gibraltar is a centre of smuggling in Europe these days. Not only they smuggle tobacco into Spain but their police keep interfering with their Spanish counterparts who are trying to stop illegal boats carrying drugs from Tanger and Fez to Europe through the Strait. Added to this is the online gambling business- most of Europe's is located in Gibraltar and its tax heaven "no questions asked".

As to the visit, I'm looking forward to it. It's always special to see two of the oldest and important royal families in Europe get together on an state visit.

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  #138  
Old 03-08-2017, 01:04 AM
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Do they have to bestow a new title on Charles I mean he and his parents have the order if Charles III which they can easily wear to the event. Am I wrong in thinking they may simply award orders to those members who don't currently have them like Camilla and the Cambridges?

Camilla is likely the order of Isabella. Most of the senior royal ladies, wives of the heirs or now queens, were given it on state visit.

Perhaps the order of civil merit for William and Kate as they are further back. Astrid, Martha Louise and others have been given it.
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  #139  
Old 03-08-2017, 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Alondra View Post
I think is doubtful Prince Charles will get the Golden Fleece. The Order has always been given to kings, queens and people the Spanish crown wants to specially recognise ie, Sarkozy former President of France.

One of the reasons I'm doubtful Charles will get t is reading the other day in the Dinastias forum that Queen Sofia, after a lifetime of service to Spain, does not have the Golden Fleece. Incredible.
...
I know that Foro Dinastias venerates Queen Sofia, but as far as I know no Queen Consort has ever been given the Golden Fleece. Sofia would be the first one, although a very deserving one, of course. Even female monarchs had to wait until 1985 (Queen Beatrix) to be appointed.
If any it would be interesting if the government decided to bestow the Collar of the Order of Charles III on Letizia. I know Sofia only got in 1982, but since Letizia is not going to get any decoration from the UK it would be a good occasion (besides it could be the closest to a necklace she might ever wear xD).

Anyway, according to the Wikipedia list of the knights of the Order of the Golden Fleece, a few monarchs have been bestowed the order when they were still crown princes (Victor Emanuel III, George V, Christian X, Edward VI, Leopold III, Umberto II) but that was before Franco. Since then the appointements have been sporadic and mostly of Heads of State.

So my guess is that only Felipe (Order of the Garter) and maybe Camilla (Grand Cross of the Order of Isabella the Catholic) will get new decorations. I know that many members of the BRF usually attend the State dinner but I think that happened in 1986 too and yet only Charles got a Spanish order.
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  #140  
Old 03-08-2017, 05:12 AM
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It is very unlikely that the Prince of Wales receives the Golden Fleece, since the only heiress who has it is the Princess of Asturias. The decoration has been reserved in recent years to Heads of State and very relevant Spanish citizens. He received in 1986 the Grand Cross of the Order of Carlos III which is the highest decoration that can receive a Crown Prince, because the necklace is reserved for Heads of State.


When King Juan Carlos traveled to the United Kingdom in 1986, he received the Royal Victorian Chain and Queen Elizabeth, the necklace of the Order of Carlos III.

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/...4804?s=594x594
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/...2364?s=594x594

King Felipe currently has the Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order which he received from Queen Elizabeth II when the Queen visited Spain in 1988. Then the queen received the Golden Fleece.

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/...2626?s=594x594
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/...6208?s=594x594

So it is most likely that King Felipe will receive the Royal Victorian Chain. The Duchess of Cornwall and the Cambridge, or other members of the British Royal Family, the Grand Cross of the Order of Isabel la Católica. The others will stay as they are.
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