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  #141  
Old 07-05-2009, 05:24 PM
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I had neve tought to this aspect...I think you're right, as non royal Dukedoms they will drop in the end of the list, since they are the last created.
I guess these two dukedoms are in the Peerage of the United Kingdom, so they will be the last dukedoms of all.
Btw, also today the Earl of Ulster and the Earl of St. Andrews are the last in the order of Precedence in the UK, so nothing will change for them...
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  #142  
Old 07-05-2009, 05:41 PM
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jonnydep, You are absolutely correct in your assumption: once the present Duke of Kent and Gloucester pass away, both Dukedoms will rank at the very bottom of the precedence list (unless Letters Patent are issued, which is highly unlikely).
As peerages of the United Kingdom, they come last in the precedence of countries, after England, Scotland, Great Britain and Ireland (as you have noted in your post). As the latest-created non-Royal Dukedoms (from the moment of death of the present holders), both Duke of Gloucester and Duke of Kent will rank below Duke of Fife in the list of precedence.

I've never thought of this issue as well, so thanks for reminding of the interesting and tangled word of precedence!
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  #143  
Old 07-06-2009, 04:30 PM
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Hi,

When would this assembly of dukes ever come together at one time to even worry about precedence??
A Coronation? A Royal Funeral? The Opening of Parliament?

Are all the dukes required to be present for any or all of these events?

Larry
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  #144  
Old 07-06-2009, 05:38 PM
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Most of them no longer have seats in the Parliament (following the reforms of 1999) so Parliament is out but certainly at a Coronation when they, at least through a representative, swears allegiance directly to the monarch. Up to 1902 they all individually swore allegiance at the coronation but that was changed in 1902 due to Edward VII's recent appendectomy. It was felt that the ceremony would have been too long and taxing if all the nobles had to individually swear so now only the most senior (I believe) in each order of noblity actually does the swearing on behalf of all (this is after royal dukes etc who still do so individuall e.g. Duke of Edinburgh at Elizabeth II's).
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  #145  
Old 07-07-2009, 07:57 AM
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Question was the dukedom of fife considered royal ?

back in 1889, the elder daughter of the prince of wales, louise had married the 6th earl of fife, whom was later created duke of fife in 1900. the couple had two children - lady alexandra and lady maud. however both was declared by king edward VII as princesses in 1905 ( the same year inwhich louise, the duchess of fife had become the princess royal).
her husband the duke of fife died in 1912, thereby the elder daughter princess alexandra became the duchess of fife in her own right. she died in 1959 to be succeeded by her nephew.

well i am wondering that if the dukedom of fife was considered to be a royal dukedom between the years 1912-1959, due to the fact that holder was a princess !!. it was not between 1900-1912 and not since 1959.

cheers
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  #146  
Old 07-07-2009, 08:10 AM
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This i an interesting question; although it was held by HRH the Princess Alexandra of Connaught, the Dukedom of Fife has never been considered as a Royal Dukedom.
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  #147  
Old 07-07-2009, 08:31 AM
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It's not a dukedom of the blood royal in the sense Victoria elevated an extant Earl to the rank of Duke upon marriage to her granddaughter, HRH Princess Louise. When it was clear they would not have a son, Victoria then re-created it in the Peerage of the UK with a remainder to the female line.

Royal dukedoms are only inherited by male heirs of the body and cannot pass outside the original line to a brother. Once re-merged with the Crown, they are only created again for another member of the royal family. Fife passed from Alexandra to her nephew, Lord Carnegie, upon her death, which will not occur with a royal dukedom like York or Edinburgh.

However, The Queen could choose to re-create the York dukedom in the Peerage of the UK with a remainder to her granddaughters, Eugenie and Beatrice, if she wanted to.
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  #148  
Old 07-07-2009, 09:18 AM
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Smile thanks mafan

on second thoughts given that both the princesses was given precedence immediately after members of the royal family with the qualification of royal highness as declared in 1905 , perhaps there was not the need to regard the dukedom as royal.

another interesting note - at the same time when the king declared his granddaugthers princesses in 1905, he also stated they should have the qualification of highness !!. certainly the younger sister maud was referred as her highness and not her royal highness , the elder sister the duchess was a royal highness via her marriage to her cousin prince arthur anyway.

this seems somewhat strange how can the princesses be a highness and a royal highness at the same time (except by marriage). it must have been confusing for the court, as on the grand state occasions the princesses was royal highnesses, but on every day terms just highnesses.

very strange....... wouldnt it have been far easlier for all concerned for the king to declare them only as royal highnesses and be done with it. i do get the impression that royalty does make life more difficult for themselves and others at times !!!

so why did the king do this, any ideas out there ?
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  #149  
Old 07-07-2009, 09:44 AM
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As far as I know, only the children and grandchildren in male line of a Sovereign were (and still are) Royal Highnesses; the descendants of a grandchild of the Sovereign in male line, so who were Princes, were "only" Highnesses.
An example is King Edward VIII or his brother King George VI: they were born great-grandchildren of the reigning Queen, and at the time of their birth they were only Highnesses; later, in 1898, they were elevated to Royal Highnesses.

When Alexandra and Maud were created Princesses, they were not entitled to be Royal Highnesses, because they were not descendants in the male line from King Edward VII, who was their grandfather. So they were created Princesses and "only" Highnesses; later, when Alexandra married Prince Arthur, who was a Royal Highness because he was a grandson of Queen Victoria, she took the style of her husband, and became a Royal Highness too. Maud remained a Highness.
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  #150  
Old 07-07-2009, 10:09 AM
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thankyou mafan, yes i do understand every thing what you have mentioned in your last reply. i feel you have slightly missed the point i was trying to make.

king edward VII declared that his granddaughters

"should bear the title of princess with the qualification of highness and precedence immediately after the members of the royal family with the qualication of royal highness "

surely the princesses can not be both "highness and royal highness" its not logical.......

any ideas mafan, why this is so ?
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  #151  
Old 07-07-2009, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnydep View Post
surely the princesses can not be both "highness and royal highness" its not logical...
You make it out to be more complex than it is.
Lady Alexandra and Lady Maud Duff were made Princesses with the style of Highness in 1905.
HH Princess Alexandra married HRH Prince Arthur of Connaught in 1913 thereby assuming the style of Royal Highness.
Their son Alastair was an HH Prince from his birth in 1914 until 1917 when he was styled Earl of Macduff.
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  #152  
Old 07-07-2009, 10:43 AM
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I guess this mean that in the order of precedence, the two princesses came soon after the Royal Highnesses, or the children and male line grandchildren of the Sovereign.
They were not both Highnesses and Royal Hignesses:

Maud:
from 5 nov 1905 to 12 nov 1923: Her Highness Princess Maud of Fife
from 12 nov 1923 to 10 nov 1941: Her Highness Princess Maud, Lady Carnegie
from 10 nov 1941 to her death: Her Highness Princess Maud, Countess of Southesk

Alexandra:
from 5 nov 1905 to 22 jan 1912: Her Highness Princess Alexandra of Fife
from 22 jan 1912 to 15 oct 1913: Her Highness Princess Alexandra, Duchess of Fife
from 15 oct 1913 to ger death: Her Royal Highness Princess Arthur of Connaught, Duchess of Fife
She became Royal Highness due to her marriage to a Royal Highness (Prince Arthur), and no longer was a Highness.

I hope to have been easily understandable.
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  #153  
Old 07-07-2009, 11:12 AM
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnydep View Post
king edward VII declared that his granddaughters
"should bear the title of princess with the qualification of highness and precedence immediately after the members of the royal family with the qualication of royal highness "
it would appear that i had missundertood the wording of the adove !.
now if it was worded as follows
"immediately after those members of the royal family, who bear the qualification of royal highness"
well things would had been differant...
what a plonker i have been !!!. well warren and mafan, with both of your help i now fully understand ! sorry about my gaffe..........

regarding the dukedom of fife.....
well it is as i had thought - not a royal dukedom !!
thanks for your input, am sorry that i had not back to you sooner, but as you can see i got side tracked with another matter of my own making
cheers anyway
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  #154  
Old 07-07-2009, 04:22 PM
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Smile news to me !!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAfan View Post
King Edward VIII or his brother King George VI: they were born great-grandchildren of the reigning Queen, and at the time of their birth they were only Highnesses; later, in 1898, they were elevated to Royal Highnesses.
most interesting, i did not know this. i will have to take a look into this. why 1898 and not at their births, as both were in the direct line of succession to the throne after the duke of york and the prince of wales. however i do know that both brothers were referred as prince edward and prince albert of york.
mafan, my friend, i hope you are not getting confused with the guidelines set down by king george V, as who should be entitled to be royal highnesses, as that came much later !!.
but i am sure, you will be correct as always, i have no reason to think otherwise...... it does seem logical considering that another of the queens great grandsons via the male line was a highness (prince alastair, the future 2nd duke of connaught) and he was born in 1914, still before king george's guidelines !!! .

ps
BTW the dukedom of connaught was yet another royal dukedom, thus linking the post to the tread as a whole !!
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  #155  
Old 07-07-2009, 04:42 PM
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Since the reign of George I, all the male line descendants of the Sovereign were Princes; only the children and grandchildren of the Soverign were Royal Highnesses, and the other descendants were Highnesses.
In 1898 Queen Victoria released Letters Patent, that stated that the children of the first son of the Prince of Wales were Royal Highnesses instead of Highnesses.
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  #156  
Old 07-07-2009, 10:22 PM
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Victoria was in her final decline by 1898 and wheelchair bound. Her York great-grandchildren were the only surviving male-line descendants of her son, Edward VII, so she elevated them to HRH knowing they would soon be next-in-line as spares.

Alexandra and Maud were both unmarried when their grandfather elevated them to Princesses in 1905. At the time, great-grandchildren in the male-line of The Sovereign enjoyed the style and attribute of HH Prince/Princess of Great Britain and Ireland. The King essentially granted his Fife granddaughters the rank they would have been entitled to automatically at the time of their birth if they had been in the male-line of Victoria.

When George V succeeded to the throne, he made it clear he did not approve of his father's actions in elevating his cousins to Princesses. As such, Maud stopped using her style as a Princess when she married Lord Carnegie and Alexandra used her married title as "HRH Princess Arthur of Connaught". The Fife dukdeom was then inherited by her nephew after she died.
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  #157  
Old 07-30-2009, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muriel View Post
Members of the BRF are not allowed to vote in the British General Elections. My question was really at what stage are the members of the family considered not close enough to the throne and allowed to vote in the elections?

I remember when they lowered the voting age in Britain in 1969 having a discussion in class about the fact that Princess Anne would actually be able to vote in the next General Election but that Prince Charles, as a royal duke (Duke of Cornwall) wouldn't.

It was also reported, in our papers (and I still have the cutting somewhere I think) reporting that she had stated that she wouldn't be exercising that right. That was in 1970 when she came to Australia with her parents and Prince Charles. There was a lengthy piece on her in our local paper as she came to the small town where I was at school, with the Queen and Duke of Edinburgh but not Charles (he wasn't allowed to fly on the same plane as the Queen) and that paper included her saying that she wouldn't vote although fully entitled to do so.

One of the reasons for creating the sons Dukes was so that they couldn't vote in or stand for election to the House of Commons.
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  #158  
Old 08-07-2009, 07:31 AM
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Has anyone mentioned that George VI bestowed the title of Duke Of Edinburgh to Prince Philip before the royal wedding in 1947? Philip didn't have a British title, and he's not a British prince. The Edinburgh dukedom doesn't automatically go to Prince Charles because it wasn't given as a hereditary title. When Philip dies, regardless of who has predeceased him, the Edinburgh title will go to Prince Edward, unless he happens to have predeceased Philip.
As to the Duke of Albany, the last one was Leopold, Queen Victoria's youngest son. His son became Duke of Saxe-Coburg and a German citizen, so he was stripped of his British titles after WWI.
When the Earl of Wessex got married, there was some talk that he might be granted the title Duke of Albany, but he ended up with Wessex.
Also, don't forget that the monarch can pretty much decide who gets what title, and if someone doesn't appear to be worthy of a title, then you can bet that the title will disappear. Monarchs may not have political power, but they can have fun with their power over the social strata!
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  #159  
Old 08-07-2009, 01:50 PM
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I don't think that the British started creating life peer titles until the '60s, long after Philip was made Duke of Edinburgh. It is a hereditary title.
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  #160  
Old 08-07-2009, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by lac2003 View Post
Has anyone mentioned that George VI bestowed the title of Duke Of Edinburgh to Prince Philip before the royal wedding in 1947? Philip didn't have a British title, and he's not a British prince. The Edinburgh dukedom doesn't automatically go to Prince Charles because it wasn't given as a hereditary title. When Philip dies, regardless of who has predeceased him, the Edinburgh title will go to Prince Edward, unless he happens to have predeceased Philip.
Phillip was granted the title DofE on the morning of his wedding.
There has been alot of debate over the DofE title. It does go to Charles when Phillip dies, if Charles is King he will merge it with the crown or choose to give it to his brother.

Duke of Edinburgh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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