Royal Dukes, Royal Duchies and Royal Ducal Titles

[Lumutqueen]

Originally Posted by HM Queen Catherine

Since he will become the Duke of Edinburgh on the death of his parents, that particular title will not be given to Prince Harry.

How may I ask do you know this?
I haven't heard it as fact that the title Duke of Edinburgh is definitely being given to Prince Edward after his parents death. Also why will it not be given to Harry?

[wbenson]

It is of course impossible to bind future monarchs on this type of action (so it will always be strictly possible that it won't go this way), but in 1999 the Palace stated that upon the death of the current Duke and the Queen, Edward would be created Duke of Edinburgh. The official website (rather sloppily) alludes to this:

Prince Philip’s youngest son, Prince Edward, will take the title on his death.

[Lumutqueen]

Originally Posted by wbenson

It is of course impossible to bind future monarchs on this type of action (so it will always be strictly possible that it won't go this way), but in 1999 the Palace stated that upon the death of the current Duke and the Queen, Edward would be created Duke of Edinburgh. The official website (rather sloppily) alludes to this:

Thank you for this information. I had known that it was sort of said and around about, but the way it was phrased above i thought something had been released this year that it was a definite. I also still don't understand why Prince Harry could not inherit the title first or after Edward.

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by lumutqueen

Thank you for this information. I had known that it was sort of said and around about, but the way it was phrased above i thought something had been released this year that it was a definite. I also still don't understand why Prince Harry could not inherit the title first or after Edward.

Currently the heir to the Edinburgh title is Charles.

The stated intention is that Charles will inherit the Edinburgh title on the death of his father.

If that happens while the Queen is still alive then Charles will add the Edinburgh titles to his present titles and Edinburgh will merge with the crown when Charles becomes king.

If Philip outlives the Queen then the Edinburgh title will pass to Charles, who is already king, and so will automatically merge with the crown.

It is then intended to recreate the Edinburgh title for Edward.

However:

If Charles predeceases the Queen then the title would pass to William, who presumably would honour his grandmother's stated wish but....

If Charles and William predecease the Queen then that sitution reaches Harry, who again presumably would honour his grandmother's stated wish but...

There is a scenario whereby the title is not available for anyone to regrant it to Edward:

William marries and has a daughter (or a couple of daughters) but no son.
Charles, William and Philip die before the Queen leaving the daughter (or eldest daughter) as the Queen's heir - then Harry inherits directly the Edinburgh title and it doesn't merge with the crown.

The current succession to the Edinburgh title is the same as for the throne in the first four people.

So:

Philip dies
Charles dies
William dies
Queen dies
Harry inherits and it merges with the crown

add a daughter in their for William and it changes

Philip dies
Charles dies
William dies leaving the daughter as heiress apparent (can't be replaced by a son)
Queen dies
Harry becomes Duke of Edinburgh and Edward misses out.

The deaths above can happen in any order so long as the three men die before the Queen and William has a legitimate daughter and no sons.

Of course Edward could also inherit the Edinburgh title directly from his father - if

Charles, William, Harry and Andrew all predecease Philip (or again William and/or Harry leave only legitimate daughters) then the title would pass to Edward by direct inheritance (along with the Merioneth and Greenwich titles).

Harry can't inherit the title, as it is currently set up, from Edward as Edward has a son who would inherit it assuming that a new regrant would use the standard Letters Patent of 'heirs male of the body'. It would be strange to set LPs for a new title that grants the father only the title and not allow it to go to his son when his other titles - Wessex and Severn - will go to James.

There is no way that BP can say that Edward would definitely get the Edinburgh title as they are fully aware of the inheritance possibilities and so know that there is a chance that

a) Edward won't get it at all or
b) that he could get it through direct inheritance or
c) the most likely that he will get it as a regrant when it merges with the crown at Charles' accession.

[Lumutqueen]

Hang on so your telling me that Charles is next to get the title Duke Of Edinburgh, when Prince Phillip dies, and if Charles is king it merges with the crown?

What about Harry or Edward then, they're just left with nothing while the King and heir get titles??

William will become Prince Of Wales when his dad is king, there is little doubt about that.

But Charles will then also become Duke Of Edinburgh aswell as king.

If the succesion to the title of DofE is the same as the line of the succesion to the crown then why does it say on the royal website that it will go to Edward?

Styles and titles

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

Of course Edward could also inherit the Edinburgh title directly from his father - if

Charles, William, Harry and Andrew all predecease Philip (or again William and/or Harry leave only legitimate daughters) then the title would pass to Edward by direct inheritance (along with the Merioneth and Greenwich titles).

So your saying that Edward will only get the title IF Charles, William, Harry an Andrew die before Phillip?

List of titles and honours of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It also says here that after Edwards wedding it was announced that he would become the Duke of Edinburgh.

[AuroraB]

It would be up to Charles when he is king to regrant the title of Duke of Edinburgh to his brother Edward.

[Marsel]

Originally Posted by lumutqueen

Hang on so your telling me that Charles is next to get the title Duke Of Edinburgh, when Prince Phillip dies, and if Charles is king it merges with the crown?

What about Harry or Edward then, they're just left with nothing while the King and heir get titles??

Prince Charles is the Duke of Edinburgh’s eldest son, so he will inherit the title, unless his father survives him., in which his eldest son (William) will inherit it.
Prince Harry will most probably be granted a Dukedom upon his marriage. If he marries within the lifetime of Queen Elizabeth, letters patent will be issued by his grandmother, allowing his children (if they are born during the Queen's lifetime) to enjoy a royal and princely status to which they otherwise would not have been entitled.

If the succesion to the title of DofE is the same as the line of the succesion to the crown then why does it say on the royal website that it will go to Edward?

Styles and titles

So your saying that Edward will only get the title IF Charles, William, Harry an Andrew die before Phillip?

It also says here that after Edwards wedding it was announced that he would become the Duke of Edinburgh.

It has been announced that the title of the Duke of Edinburgh is intended to eventually go to Prince Edward. It is possible if:
1) Charles, William, Harry and Andrew all die without legitimate male heirs
2) If the title merges with the Crown, it can be then recreated for Edward.

Since the second option is the most probable one, it is almost certain that the Queen, Prince Philip, Prince Charles and Prince Edward have all agreed to act accordingly - that is, Charles (or William, if Charles predeceases his mother or father) with recreate the title for Edward once he is King.

[HM Queen Catherine]

Originally Posted by Marsel77

It has been announced that the title of the Duke of Edinburgh is intended to eventually go to Prince Edward. It is possible if:
1) Charles, William, Harry and Andrew all die without legitimate male heirs
2) If the title merges with the Crown, it can be then recreated for Edward.

Since the second option is the most probable one, it is almost certain that the Queen, Prince Philip, Prince Charles and Prince Edward have all agreed to act accordingly - that is, Charles (or William, if Charles predeceases his mother or father) with recreate the title for Edward once he is King.

There two other possibilities regarding the succession to the Dukedom of Edinburgh.

First:
If Prince Philip dies before the Queen, then both Prince Charles and Prince Andrew can formally renounce their rights to the Dukedom for themselves and their heirs, which would leave Prince Edward next in line to become Duke of Edinburgh. In this case, Edward would become the 2nd Duke of Edinburgh of his father's creation, rather than having a new creation granted to him.

It is even possible that both Charles and Andrew have done this already, in compliance with the wishes of their parents to give the title to Edward.. but we can't be sure of that.

Second:
The letters patent for the Duchy of Edinburgh could be amended to have the title revert to the crown upon the death of Philip. In which case, if the Queen outlives him it will be in her gift to re-create the Duchy for Edward. Or, if Philip outlives the Queen, then it would be Charles that would re-create the title for his brother.

Both of these scenarios are a lot less complicated than having Charles inherit Edinburgh, wait to become King, have his sons and Prince Andrew renounce their claim to the Duchy and then re-create the title for Edward.

[Marsel]

You are quite right, both options are possible. If Prince Philip dies before Charles is King, I believe the first option in your post is the most probable outcome, if renouncing the title is possible at all.
Just one note; if Charles inherits the Dukedom of Edinburgh and waits till he is King, I don't think his heirs or Prince Andrew would have to renounce anything, as the title would be merged with the Crown. The Monarch would then be free to have a new creation for Prince Edward.

[Kotroman]

Originally Posted by HM Queen Catherine

There two other possibilities regarding the succession to the Dukedom of Edinburgh...

Actually, you are wrong.

1) I don't think that anyone can legally renounce the right to succeed to a title. The Peerage Act 1963 only enabled peers to disclaim their titles, but that person's heir could not hold the disclaimed title until the death of the person who disclaimed it. In other words, only Philip can disclaim the title of Duke of Edinburgh, but Charles would still succeed to the title after Philip's death.

2) I've never heard of letters patent being amended. When a change is wanted, simply a new title is created. That's what was done to enable Princess Alexandra of Fife to succeed to the Dukedom of Fife.

In the end, it's less complicated for Edward to be patient and wait for the current Dukedom to merge with the Crown.

Also, Philip holds the Dukedom of Edinburgh. There are only two duchies in the United Kingdom: the Duchy of Lancaster and the Duchy of Cornwall.

[Lumutqueen]

Originally Posted by Kotroman

Also, Philip holds the Dukedom of Edinburgh. There are only two duchies in the United Kingdom: the Duchy of Lancaster and the Duchy of Cornwall.

You are quite right on that one. The Queen is the Duke of Lancaster and Prince Charles is the Duke of Cornwall.

[Iluvbertie]

The succession to the Edinburgh dukedom follows that of the crown until Andrew because only the heirs male of the body can inherit that title and Philip's heirs are also The Queen's heirs.

If either William or Harry marry during the present reign I suspect that both of them will get their own dukedoms, meaning that at some point in the future William will be known as Duke of Cornwall and xxxx in the same way that George V was known as Duke of Cornwall and York for most of 1901. Only when, and if, William is created Prince of Wales would he cease to have be known usually by both those titles together. There is no guarantee that William will ever be Prince of Wales - although probable given some of the attitudes in Wales it is possible that Charles could be the last holder of that title.

The most likely way that Edward will get the Edinburgh dukedom is through Charles re-creating the title for his brother after he becomes king and the title merges with the crown.

That is what was announced in 1999 - that when the title merged with the crown it would be recreated for Edward.

[HM Queen Catherine]

Originally Posted by Kotroman

Actually, you are wrong...

You are quite correct regarding the Peerage Act of 1963. In that case, should Prince Charles inherit the Dukedom of Edinburgh, he may disclaim it, which would suspend the title, although I don't know whether he would be able to re-grant it once he is King. I suppose legally it would revert to the Crown once he ascends the throne, but whether that would change the status of a suspended title is uncertain.

However, I must disagree with you regarding the amendment of the letters patent. The Dukedom of Edinburgh itself may only be inherited according to the remainder defined in the Letters Patent of creation, unless modified by an Act of Parliament. And this has been done before.

George V had his Letters Patent amended to include the style and title of HRH for the children of Elizabeth and Philip. His original Letters Patent, dated 30 November 1917, did not include this provision, and were amended in October 1948.

The letter of George V regarding this states "... We deem it expedient that the aforesaid Letters Patent should be amended and extended in manner hereinafter declared..."

and the letter from Whitehall dated 18 October states "It will be observed that the Letters Patent will in effect constitute an amendment and extension of the Letters Patent of the 30th November, 1917, of which a copy was enclosed with Dadd's letter of the 12th Oct."

The style of HRH is nothing more than a title, as is the Dukedom of Edinburgh, even though the former is not hereditary and the latter is.

Sorry about the 'Duchy' error. Of course I meant Dukedom, but sometimes my mind races faster than my fingers. LOL. You were right to point out that error.

[wbenson]

Originally Posted by Kotroman

1) I don't think that anyone can legally renounce the right to succeed to a title. The Peerage Act 1963 only enabled peers to disclaim their titles, but that person's heir could not hold the disclaimed title until the death of the person who disclaimed it. In other words, only Philip can disclaim the title of Duke of Edinburgh, but Charles would still succeed to the title after Philip's death.

Philip can't disclaim his peerage. That had to be done within a year after the act became law.

[Iluvbertie]

George VI, in 1948, added to the LPs issued by his father in 1917, more than actually change them from the existing line of inheritance. What you are suggesting is actually passing over the first four in line of inheritance to that title.

As there is a way that Harry could inherit the title directly it wouldn't be possible to really change the LPs to pass them to a younger son over the second son of the current heir.

If William has a daughter and no son, then dies before The Queen, Philip and Charles (highly unlikely I know but still possible) then the crown would pass to that daughter but Edinburgh to Harry directly.

If a change was made to exclude Charles', William's, Harry's and Andrew's claim to the Edinburgh title it would really open a can of worms for titles.

The easiest way of dealing with the matter is the way proposed. Wait until it merges with the crown (assuming it does) and then recreate it for Edward.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Elspeth

I wonder if he'd be created Earl of Something like Edward, in the expectation that eventually he'll take the Duke of York title probably during William's reign. On the other hand, it probably makes more sense for that title to wait for William's second son. At least that means it'll be longer before the York title leaves the royal family. I think it's a shame that the Gloucester title, with all its royal history, will no longer be royal when the present Duke dies.

If William or Harry marry while The Queen still reigns, she may choose to create them Earls, rather than Dukes. Given that her youngest son was created Earl of Wessex, with the understanding Charles would create him Duke of Edinburgh in due course, the same reasoning could be applied to William or Harry, even though they are much closer to the throne than Edward.

Once Charles is King, William will automatically become The Duke of Cornwall and Harry could be granted a dukedom once he is a son of The Sovereign. Their sons could then use the earldoms as courtesy styles, possibly in place of being known as HRH Prince X, similar to James, Viscount Severn.

The Dukedom of Gloucester will no longer be of royal rank after the death of HRH Prince Richard, but it will remain a royal dukedom in the sense it is only created for the blood royal.

[Lady Marmalade]

Well, in William and Harry's case..we can only speculate. What I think will happen is this: Charles becomes king...the title merges back into the Crown, and then he re-creates it for Edward...plain and simple. Assuming everyone lives in line to it...and Charles is king and both Philip has obviously passed away.

I have enjoyed reading all your posts, as it helps me to understand this. But..it is still speculative at this point...and it is fun to try and guess.

I sometimes really wonder if the Queen reads things like this and says to herself... "Hahahahaha, they really have no idea just how many jewels I really have, or what will happen to William and Harry' titles when they marry!" LOL!!!!!!!

[king of scotland]

I will make a prediction and predict, that if The Queen is still alive when Princes Willaim and Harry marry, Prince William will be granted the Dukedoms of either Clarence or Cambridge. And I think Prince Harry will be given the Dukedom of Sussex.

When Harry has children will his children be titled Prince/Princess? Or would it take a letters of patent from the Queen, or if she is deceased, letters from Charles?

[MAfan]

If the Queen would still be alive, Henry's children would not be Princes, because they would be great-grandchildren of the Queen; but if (or when) Charles would become King Henry's children would be Princes, as granchildren of the King.

[king of scotland]

If the Queen issued Letters of Patent they could be titled Princes/Princesses?

I read somewhere that if the Queen is still alive, and Prince Harry has children she would created Letters to entitle them to these titles, if Harry wanted to.