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  #501  
Old 07-21-2015, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by VictoriaB View Post
I thought it was possible for a hereditary Peer to renounce his title. This happened when Viscount Stansgate renounced his peerage to become Tony Benn so that he could continue to sit in the commons.
Tony Benn disclaimed his peerage for his lifetime in order to allow him to maintain his seat in the commons. It's an interesting case; he was an MP before his father's death and was denied his seat when he became Viscount Stansgate. Despite not being able to sit in the house, he still ran for and won a seat in the next election and campaigned for change - which ended up being supported by the Conservative Government who had several members facing the same issue. After the passage of the Peerage Act 1963 a peer could disclaim his/her title for their lifetime, thus being eligible to sit in the commons.

That said, the title didn't cease to exist. Tony Benn did not use his title and wasn't held back by it, but when he died his title was still passed on to his son.

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Secondly, There are a small number of hereditary peers still sitting in the upper house (according to Parliament's website 88). I recall the idea was that the hereditary peers who were having their right to sit in the house removed were allowed to vote for some of their number who would continue to be members of the house. Since the Constitutional Reform Act, there have been rumblings that the Government should do away with this anomaly and remove the right of all hereditary peers to sit but it clearly hasn't happened yet.

You are completely right here. I over simplified things a bit in regards to the House of Lords.

Some 90 or so Hereditary Peers do sit in the House. In addition, there are also 26 Lords Spiritual sitting in the House who are members of the clergy.
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  #502  
Old 07-21-2015, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by fearghas View Post
Is this going to be the only way that HERIDITARY titles will enter the peerage from now on, through cadet branches of the British Royal family?
Yes, I think so. With three exceptions in the early 80s, no hereditary peerages have been created for non-royals since 1964.
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  #503  
Old 07-22-2015, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Tony Benn disclaimed his peerage for his lifetime in order to allow him to maintain his seat in the commons. It's an interesting case; he was an MP before his father's death and was denied his seat when he became Viscount Stansgate. Despite not being able to sit in the house, he still ran for and won a seat in the next election and campaigned for change - which ended up being supported by the Conservative Government who had several members facing the same issue. After the passage of the Peerage Act 1963 a peer could disclaim his/her title for their lifetime, thus being eligible to sit in the commons.

That said, the title didn't cease to exist. Tony Benn did not use his title and wasn't held back by it, but when he died his title was still passed on to his son.
Thank you for the explanation Ish.
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  #504  
Old 09-23-2015, 12:06 AM
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In that case the agreement worked out between the Queen, Prince Philip and their son would be worth nothing. Experts would no doubt have been consulted at the time of Edward's marriage and every possible scenario and permutation would have been looked at then. I have no doubt that Charles knows the wishes of his parents in the matter of his brother's peerage as do his own sons.
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  #505  
Old 09-23-2015, 12:34 AM
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Only parliament can alter the Letters Patent once a title has been created. Not even the Queen can do it. So however unlikely there is a scenario where Harry will inherit the dukedom of Edinburgh and no one can do anything about it other than an Act of Parliament.

But given what will have to happen the dukedom will merge with the crown and Edward can receive a new creation.
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  #506  
Old 09-23-2015, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
After the death of the Queen and Prince Philip however, the title merges with the Crown, especially if Charlotte would ascend the throne as a young single woman. Harry would undoubtedly have a dukedom of his own by then and would likely be regent until Charlotte was 18.

Therefore if there is a new creation then the title could be given to Edward by the new monarch as per the family agreement. I don't believe that whoever is on the throne in this hypothetical scenario, that Edward would be subjected by the sovereign to being leapfrogged over. He obviously accepted the terms of the agreement at the time the Earldom of Wessex was created.

It's not a case of Edward being leapfrogged over.

The line of succession to the peerage is:
1. Charles
2. William
3. George
4. Harry
5. Andrew
6. Edward
7. James

However, this isn't the same as the line of succession to the throne - Charlotte, Beatrice, and Eugenie are all in the succession to the throne, but not the peerage, before Edward.

In order for Edward to inherit his father's title, everyone in the succession before him has to die without having become the monarch. In order for it to become available to be recreated then it either has to become extinct - meaning there are no living legitimate, male male-line descendants of Prince Philip - or it has to merge with the crown - the person who holds the title becomes monarch, or the monarch inherits the title.

While it's unlikely that the title won't merge with the crown - the direct line of succession to the throne is all male - it's still possible and if that happens there's nothing the Queen, the DoE, or their successors can do about it. If Harry were to become the Duke of Edinburgh the only way he could make it so that his uncle (or his uncle's heirs) would one day hold the title is to either become the monarch or not have legitimate sons himself.
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  #507  
Old 09-23-2015, 01:05 AM
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To cause this amount of possible complication there must have been some compelling reason for the Queen and Duke to wish Edward to get the title used by his father for so many decades.

When it merges with the Crown as it probably will when Charles ascends the throne it would be an unjustice for Charles to go against his parents' wishes in this matter.

The Queen would probably have done better to have bitten the bullet (in spite of the prevailing public atmosphere at the time of the Wessex wedding) and given Edward Cambridge or Sussex and have done with it. As it is he's had to wait for sixteen years already.
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  #508  
Old 09-23-2015, 01:27 AM
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I don't think there's any reason to expect Charles to not create his brother DoE when the time comes - unless it ends up being a purely political thing, where creating the title would cause upset with the public.

As for why the Queen and DoE would have made this decision (along with Edward and Sophie), I actually think it is typical of them. We all know that his position, and his wife's position, has been something that the DoE has struggled with at times; he is an old fashioned man who has been unable to pass his names on to his children - something which has been noticed as an issue for him in the past.

Charles will never be his father's heir, not truly. Even if he were to hold his father's titles, Charles will always be his mother's heir, and known by those titles.

Andrew got the traditional title of the second son of the monarch, and I don't think it would have been in his personality to accept a lesser title (Earl) and wait for an indefinite period of time before being "upgraded" - the idea of it doesn't mesh with what we know of Andrew's personality.

Edward, though, came into the stage much later than his siblings in many ways; he married well after his siblings (all 3 of his elder siblings' first marriages had ended before Edward married), and he didn't become a full time royal until after that. In general he seems to be content to draw less attention to himself than his siblings.

Another big thing here is that because Edward waited so long to become a full time royal it gave him an opportunity to step into his father's shoes that his siblings didn't have; it wouldn't have made sense if Andrew had taken a lesser title and begun to slowly follow his father's footsteps and begin preparing to take on the Duke of Edinburgh Award and associated charities in the late 80s/early 90s. It makes sense, however, for Edward, to do a decade later.
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  #509  
Old 09-23-2015, 03:12 AM
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Just a note - Andrew didn't leave the Navy until 2001 - after Edward and Sophie married. As such he didn't become a full-time royal until 2001.


Andrew has taken over Philip's role with Outward Bound just as Edward has taken on the Duke of Edinburgh Awards' Scheme.
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  #510  
Old 09-23-2015, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
To cause this amount of possible complication there must have been some compelling reason for the Queen and Duke to wish Edward to get the title used by his father for so many decades.



When it merges with the Crown as it probably will when Charles ascends the throne it would be an unjustice for Charles to go against his parents' wishes in this matter.



The Queen would probably have done better to have bitten the bullet (in spite of the prevailing public atmosphere at the time of the Wessex wedding) and given Edward Cambridge or Sussex and have done with it. As it is he's had to wait for sixteen years already.

It is not very complicated. In almost every scenario, the title merges with the crown and then it can be recreated. The one scenario when it's not merge, would require Charles in his 60s, a 33 yr old William and a 2 yr old George to die before the 89 and 94 years old Queen and Philip. This is highly unlikely to happen.




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  #511  
Old 10-06-2015, 02:16 PM
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William's style and title in full is His Royal Highness Prince William Arthur Philip Louis, Duke of Cambridge, Earl of Strathearn, Baron Carrickfergus, Royal Knight Companion of the Most Noble Order of the Garter Knight of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle Personal Aide-de-Camp to Her Majesty The Queen

William's more formal style

"William hath the Title of Grace, and being writ to, is stil'd, most High, Potent and Noble Prince: And Dukes of the Blood are stil'd, most High, most Mighty, and Illustrious Princes." "Dukes are usually stil'd by the King or Queen our Right Trusty and Right entirely Beloved Cousin, and when of the Privy Council, then with the Addition of Counsellors."
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  #512  
Old 11-02-2015, 11:53 AM
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Is it possible that a third royal duchy could be founded to provide an income for the heir to the heir to the throne, when there is one? This would give Willuam his own independent income.
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  #513  
Old 11-02-2015, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by royal-blue View Post
Is it possible that a third royal duchy could be founded to provide an income for the heir to the heir to the throne, when there is one? This would give Willuam his own independent income.
The Duchy of Cornwall alone generates more money than some European monarchies get in total... There are plenty of funds to finance the functional and private costs of the Duke and his heir.

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Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
[...]The one scenario when it's not merge, would require Charles in his 60s, a 33 yr old William and a 2 yr old George to die before the 89 and 94 years old Queen and Philip. This is highly unlikely to happen.
When Prince Philip dies today, his eldest son The Prince of Wales will be the 2nd Duke of Edinburgh, so I don't understand your point. The Dukedom will always merge with the Crown when Prince Philip dies while his eldest son is King. As long as Charles is no King, he will see the titles Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth and Baron Greenwich added to his impressive titulature.
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  #514  
Old 11-02-2015, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
When Prince Philip dies today, his eldest son The Prince of Wales will be the 2nd Duke of Edinburgh, so I don't understand your point. The Dukedom will always merge with the Crown when Prince Philip dies while is eldest son is King.

You didn't read the scenario properly. The way that it doesn't merge with the crown is for Charles, William and George to die before Philip and the Queen. So Charlotte becomes Queen and Harry inherits the DoE title. No one said it doesn't merge if the first born males Charles, William or George come to the throne. There is a very remote scenario where it doesn't merge with the crown.


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  #515  
Old 01-28-2016, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Mirabel View Post
When Charles succeeds, won't William also become Duke of Edinburgh?
(Provided Phillip is no longer living, of course).
I thought it had been decided that Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex, was to succeed as Duke of Edinburgh.
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  #516  
Old 01-28-2016, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MarNoe View Post
I thought it had been decided that Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex, was to succeed as Duke of Edinburgh.

It has been. But Edward isn't the heir to the Edinburgh title, Charles is. So when Philip dies, Charles becomes the Duke and when the Queen dies and Charles becomes King. The Edinburgh dukedom merges with the Crown and can be given to Edward as a new creation of the title.

The same thing will most likely happen to William's dukedom of Cambridge. It merges with the crown when William becomes King and isn't passed to George but maybe given to a second son of William and Kate. If George is ever the Duke of Cambridge that means that William died before ever becoming King.


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  #517  
Old 01-28-2016, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by MarNoe View Post
I thought it had been decided that Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex, was to succeed as Duke of Edinburgh.

Regarding the DoE title:

When the DoE dies, his title will pass on to his heir (the line of succession to the title is William, George, Harry, Andrew, Edward, James). If/when the holder of the title becomes the monarch, the title will merge with the crown. At that time, it is expected that the title will be recreated for Edward.

William will only become DoE if his father dies without the title merging with the crown - either Charles died without becoming King, or he becomes King and dies while his father is still alive.

Edward will only succeed to the title if it passes to him without merging with the crown - meaning that Charles, William, George, Harry, and Andrew would all have to die without becoming monarch.
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  #518  
Old 02-01-2016, 06:06 PM
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Out of curiosity, why did Edward agree to an Earldom instead of being a Duke? Did he especially desire to be Duke of Edinburgh and opted to wait?
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  #519  
Old 02-01-2016, 06:19 PM
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Ish: You forgot Charles in your line of succession to the Dukedom when you listed, he obviously places before his son.

You're right he cant succeed unless those before him were to die. But the plan isn't for him to succeed the title. It is believed in all good reasoning, that Charles will out live his parents. At the time he ascends the throne the title merges with the throne and becomes extinct. At that point it can be re-created for Edward. That was what has been the plan it seems since Edward's wedding. So unless Charles dies before his parents, or he decides to be a jerk and ignore his parents' wishes, Edward will be DOE.

Considering the years that Edward has focussed on the DOE awards and been groomed to take them over, there is no reason to believe that this doesn't remain the plan.
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  #520  
Old 02-01-2016, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by COESpiral View Post
Out of curiosity, why did Edward agree to an Earldom instead of being a Duke? Did he especially desire to be Duke of Edinburgh and opted to wait?
On the day of the marriage between Edward and Sophie (June 19, 1999) it was announced by Buckingham Palace that "The Queen, The Duke of Edinburgh and The Prince of Wales have also agreed that The Prince Edward should be given the Dukedom of Edinburgh in due course, when the present title now held by Prince Philip eventually reverts to the Crown."
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