The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > British Royals

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #441  
Old 04-11-2013, 09:46 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Rio de Janeiro and Petrópolis, Brazil
Posts: 1,124
I read she used the title of Duchess of Lancaster to travel incognito through Europe.

Well, as the Monarch's will is the only necessary requirement to creat a title, it's possible to say that Queen Victoria set a precedent for the title of Duchess of Lancaster?
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #442  
Old 04-11-2013, 09:51 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is online now
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
You are quite right on this. I merely pointed out that while Victoria and Elizabeth II have used the male form of the title, previous Queens Regnant (definitely, Mary I, Elizabeth II and, if I am not mistaken, Queen Anne and Mary II as well) have all used the female form.
Oh, yeah. I wasn't trying to disregard what you'd said, merely supplement it - although I would argue that Mary II would be a special case; you can't have two Dukes of Lancaster.

Actually, if Mary II and William III used Duchess and Duke of Lancaster respectively, then there's a precedent for both titles being used at the same time and therefore we could argue that Camilla, as consort to the king (when Charles succeeds) is entitled to be called the Duchess as the Duke's wife.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #443  
Old 04-11-2013, 10:01 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,261
^^^^
Well not a really good precedent since William & Mary were co-monarchs, not monarch and consort.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #444  
Old 04-11-2013, 11:38 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
The argument as to whether or not the Duchy of Lancaster is a peerage... it's not technically a peerage, more a courtesy title used by the monarch.
It is a style used by The Sovereign when conducting Duchy business as the Dukedom itself merged with the Crown. It is not a courtesy title as the Crown is fount of all enoblement and cannot hold a Peerage. It is impossible for the wife of The King to be The Duchess of Lancaster since her husband is The Sovereign, not a Duke of the Realm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
I read she used the title of Duchess of Lancaster to travel incognito through Europe.
Victoria liked to use Countess of Lancaster to travel, which is a non-existent title. Edward VII and Queen Alexandra used Duke and Duchess of Lancaster to travel privately. The Sovereign can do whatever they wish in terms of using styles informally, but that doesn't mean they are actually a Countess or Duke.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #445  
Old 04-12-2013, 01:46 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,527

It didn't 'merge' with the crown as that makes it available for regrant.
It remains for the sole use of the monarch and is used by the monarch - it is a title and is still used.
.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #446  
Old 04-12-2013, 02:00 AM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,425

With respect, the title Duke of Lancaster did merge with the Crown when Henry of Monmouth, the Prince of Wales became Henry V of England. At that point all his titles, including the Duke of Lancaster one (he was 1st Duke of Lancaster in its 3rd creation) merged with the Crown.

I think there is a bit of a confusion between the Duchy and the Dukedom of Lancaster. The Dukedom of Lancaster - a peerage - basically ceased to exist in 1413, when Henry V ascended to the Throne (although for a short period, it remained available for a new creation). The Duchy of Lancaster is what exists today (one of the only two duchies in England, alongside the Cornwall one). The Monarch - as the "head" of the Duchy" - is titled the Duke (or Duchess) of Lancaster but it is not a peerage title as the Dukedom of Lancaster once was.

Back during the reign of Henry IV, he declared that the Dukedom of Lancaster was reserved for his heirs male and was separate from other possessions of the Crown. For the period after Henry V's and Edward IV's accessions to the Throne, the title was available for recreation, albeit only for the male descendants of Henry IV. After Edward IV won the Throne, he confirmed the separation and also stipulated that the Duchy of Lancaster (and the title of the Duke of Lancaster) would be independent from other Crown possessions and would only belong to him (the Monarch) and his successors on the Throne of England. It's thanks to that separation that the Duchy of Lancaster wasn't included in George III's surrender of the Crown Estates (because the Duchy wasn't part of it).
.
Reply With Quote
  #447  
Old 04-13-2013, 05:52 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: pinner, United Kingdom
Posts: 501
Future of current Britsh Royal Ducal titles.

{I'm unsure about how to create a new thread, or where this subject for discussion might best be placed, so perhaps the moderators could move it to where they think it should be ?}

I think it will be a shame if the {traditionally royal} Ducal titles of Kent & Gloucester cease to be so, on the death of their present holders. These titles have a royal history of great resonance, and i think it would be regretable if their royal nature was to be lost forever.

Perhaps the 'fount of honours', {at the time} could instigate the reversion of those titles to the crown, enabling their use in the future ?

The current heirs to the dukedoms could remain the Earls of St Andrews and of Ulster, respectively, also keeping their associated courtesy titles ?

I'd be interested to know what other members of this forum think about this.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #448  
Old 04-13-2013, 06:23 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,527
I disagree.

George V knew what he was doing when he changed the LPs and then created his sons Dukes of Gloucester and Kent.

The only way to remove the titles from the heirs is to go through Parliament and have them deprived of their titles - and that would be all their titles - so St Andrews, Ulster, Culloden and Downpatrick would go as well.

There is no way Parliament would waste the time on such a trivial matter as depriving perfectly acceptable young men from holding titles.

What about Edinburgh - which if the intention announced in 1999 is followed through will also cease to be associated with an HRH in time as it will be recreated for Edward, possibly even with a neutral remainder in keeping with the equal nature of the monarchy.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #449  
Old 04-13-2013, 06:27 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,527
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post

With respect, the title Duke of Lancaster did merge with the Crown when Henry of Monmouth, the Prince of Wales became Henry V of England. At that point all his titles, including the Duke of Lancaster one (he was 1st Duke of Lancaster in its 3rd creation) merged with the Crown.

I think there is a bit of a confusion between the Duchy and the Dukedom of Lancaster. The Dukedom of Lancaster - a peerage - basically ceased to exist in 1413, when Henry V ascended to the Throne (although for a short period, it remained available for a new creation). The Duchy of Lancaster is what exists today (one of the only two duchies in England, alongside the Cornwall one). The Monarch - as the "head" of the Duchy" - is titled the Duke (or Duchess) of Lancaster but it is not a peerage title as the Dukedom of Lancaster once was.

Back during the reign of Henry IV, he declared that the Dukedom of Lancaster was reserved for his heirs male and was separate from other possessions of the Crown. For the period after Henry V's and Edward IV's accessions to the Throne, the title was available for recreation, albeit only for the male descendants of Henry IV. After Edward IV won the Throne, he confirmed the separation and also stipulated that the Duchy of Lancaster (and the title of the Duke of Lancaster) would be independent from other Crown possessions and would only belong to him (the Monarch) and his successors on the Throne of England. It's thanks to that separation that the Duchy of Lancaster wasn't included in George III's surrender of the Crown Estates (because the Duchy wasn't part of it).
.

Thank you for confirming what I am saying - that it is a separate title to the monarchy - not merged at all as it:

a) isn't available for regrant
b) is only held my the monarch

Thus it isn't merged with the crown (had been as you pointed out in you post at one time) but was effectively regranted to the monarch and the monarch alone by the monarch (Edward IV).
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #450  
Old 04-15-2013, 10:58 AM
Excalibur's Avatar
Gentry
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Jacksonville, Florida, United States
Posts: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
What about Edinburgh - which if the intention announced in 1999 is followed through will also cease to be associated with an HRH in time as it will be recreated for Edward, possibly even with a neutral remainder in keeping with the equal nature of the monarchy.
If Edinburgh were to be recreated with a neutral remainder, then Lady Louise would inherit the Dukedom of Edinburgh (as the eldest child), and James would inherit the Earldom of Wessex (as the eldest male), since it was created with a male remainder. Correct?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #451  
Old 04-15-2013, 11:03 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
If Edinburgh were to be recreated with a neutral remainder, then Lady Louise would inherit the Dukedom of Edinburgh (as the eldest child), and James would inherit the Earldom of Wessex (as the eldest male), since it was created with a male remainder. Correct?
Correct, and unless subsidiary titles were added to the Edinburgh creation her heir would have no official courtesy titles. James would have the earldom and Viscountcy.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #452  
Old 04-15-2013, 11:40 AM
Lumutqueen's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Carlton, York, United Kingdom
Posts: 17,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post

Correct, and unless subsidiary titles were added to the Edinburgh creation her heir would have no official courtesy titles. James would have the earldom and Viscountcy.
Lady Louise can inherit the Dukedom of Edinburgh?
__________________
We Will Remember Them.
Reply With Quote
  #453  
Old 04-15-2013, 11:58 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
Lady Louise can inherit the Dukedom of Edinburgh?
The post above mine was suggesting that when Edinburgh is recreated for Edward it could have gender neutral succession in which case Louise would inherit the Edinburgh dukedom as the eldest child. The Wessex/Severn peerages were created with heir male succession rights so that would be inherited by James.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #454  
Old 04-15-2013, 12:30 PM
Lumutqueen's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Carlton, York, United Kingdom
Posts: 17,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post

The post above mine was suggesting that when Edinburgh is recreated for Edward it could have gender neutral succession in which case Louise would inherit the Edinburgh dukedom as the eldest child. The Wessex/Severn peerages were created with heir male succession rights so that would be inherited by James.
I missed that bit. That would be dandy if it did.
__________________
We Will Remember Them.
Reply With Quote
  #455  
Old 04-15-2013, 06:28 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,527
It is nice to speculate but I really don't see it happening.

Interestingly the Cambridge title - the most recent - has 'heirs male' as the remainder so - a daughter first to inherit the throne and then a son to inherit Cambridge if William dies before becoming King.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #456  
Old 05-13-2013, 02:44 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Brantford, Canada
Posts: 2
I'm curious...

I don't know if this has been asked before but I was wondering, if Andrew were to remarry, what would his new wife's title be? Or would she not have one at all?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #457  
Old 05-13-2013, 03:06 AM
MichelleQ2's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Los Angeles, United States
Posts: 742
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmStudentSarah View Post
I don't know if this has been asked before but I was wondering, if Andrew were to remarry, what would his new wife's title be? Or would she not have one at all?
Perhaps she would be styled as the Countess of Inverness, following the precedent set by his brother,and she would assume the female counterpart of Andrew's second title: Earl of Inverness.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #458  
Old 05-13-2013, 03:19 AM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is online now
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,271
Her title would be Duchess of York. The chance of her using one of Andrew's lesser titles is slim, as Sarah doesn't have the same legacy or appeal with the masses as Diana did.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #459  
Old 05-13-2013, 03:40 AM
Princess Pillow's Avatar
Commoner
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Rome, United States
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Her title would be Duchess of York. The chance of her using one of Andrew's lesser titles is slim, as Sarah doesn't have the same legacy or appeal with the masses as Diana did.

I believe I agree with you. The HRH that the 2nd Duchess of York would be entitled to use would differentiate the 2nd wife of Andrew from Sarah adequately, I would think.
However, I don't see Andrew remarrying.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #460  
Old 05-13-2013, 04:27 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,527
Andrew's second wife would be HRH The Duchess of York, Countess of Inverness and Baroness Killyleagh - just as Sarah had them.

Sarah would remain, Sarah, Duchess of York. The use of her first name and no HRH The would be the distinction for those who 'get this stuff' but for the press there would be confusion as they don't understand how titles work.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
dukedom, royal dukes, styles and titles


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Royal Titles Zina Royal Family of Brunei 23 01-10-2014 01:11 PM
Royal, Princely and Comital Titles MAfan Royal Families of Italy 31 11-26-2011 04:30 AM
Moroccan Royal Names and Titles bjanka66 Royal Family of Morocco 61 07-05-2011 07:21 PM
Royal Titles Through the Generations IslandDweller Royal House of Norway 13 02-24-2008 09:26 AM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
abdication birth charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria duchess of cambridge dutch royal history fashion genealogy grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri infanta leonor infanta sofia jordan king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg nobility olympic games ottoman pom pregnancy president komorowski prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince felipe prince floris prince maurits prince pieter-christiaan princess anita princess astrid princess beatrix princess charlene princess claire princess laurentien princess mabel princess madeleine princess marilene princess mary princess mary fashion princess of asturias queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal royal fashion russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit sweden the hague wedding winter olympics 2014



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:37 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]