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  #421  
Old 06-02-2012, 06:14 PM
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It is in today's DM in the article on the Queen's godchildren and relatives born in during her reign - under Peter Philips entry, explaining why he was the first non-royal member of the royal family in over 500 years.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...orn-reign.html

25 Peter Mark Andrew Phillips.BORN: 15 November, 1977, to Princess Anne and Captain Mark Phillips. NAPPY NOTE: The first Royal technically born a commoner in 500 years after his father declined a title and Anne turned down a duchy. SUCCESSION: 11th.
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  #422  
Old 06-02-2012, 07:34 PM
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I think Princess Royal is a lovely title. It's like the holder's not just a Princess; she's the Princess Royal. Kinda like being a Princess squared.
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  #423  
Old 06-04-2012, 10:50 AM
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I don't think Anne was ever offered a dukedom in her own right, especially since she was adamant at the time of her marriage to Mark that she would support his decision to remain a commoner, rather than an Earl.

The Queen reportedly offered to elevate Peter and Zara to the rank and style of HRH Prince/Princess, but Anne declined that as well, wanting her children to have a normal upbringing without the burden of being royal.
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  #424  
Old 06-04-2012, 06:44 PM
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When reading this the other day I was struck by the mention of her turning down a dukedom in her own right as I had never heard that before - doesn't mean it wasn't offered of course but to my knowledge this was the first time it had been stated.

It was, of course, also reported in the DM - not the most reliable of sources for royal stories.
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  #425  
Old 06-04-2012, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
I don't think Anne was ever offered a dukedom in her own right, especially since she was adamant at the time of her marriage to Mark that she would support his decision to remain a commoner, rather than an Earl.

The Queen reportedly offered to elevate Peter and Zara to the rank and style of HRH Prince/Princess, but Anne declined that as well, wanting her children to have a normal upbringing without the burden of being royal.
I cannot imagine Anne wanting her children to have any titles, as the children of an earl or a duchess, let alone be burdened with being HRH. She has always made a great point of saying her children are commoners who just happen to have The Queen as a grandmother.

If the Queen consented to Edwards children being styled as the children of an Earl it would seem off to elevate Peter and Zara to HRH, especially when it has been said for years that there is a wish to pare down the size of the royal family. Sounds like DM rubish.
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  #426  
Old 06-04-2012, 07:47 PM
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If the Queen consented to Edwards children being styled as the children of an Earl it would seem off to elevate Pater and Zara to HRH, especially when it has been said for years that there is a wish to pare down the size of the royal family. Sounds like DM rubish.
The Queen's offer, if in fact it ever took place, was probably made when Anne became pregnant with her first child. I do not believe she would have made the offer after the birth of Peter and Zara.

The decision to eventually downsize the royal family hasn't actually been made at this time. James and Louise remain HRH by right of the 1917 Letters Patent, however, at their parents' request, they are not using their royal styles.
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  #427  
Old 11-12-2012, 08:58 PM
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And there is certainly nothing flimsy or girlish about the Princess and if she wanted a title, she would ask and, I think, get it. But she wouldn't want either her parents or Prince Charles to break a promise
Anne said in an interview that, as the only girl in a family of boys, there were certain assumptions as to what girls did in the royal family, and she doesn't think she fit it very conveniently. She would have probably been regarded as a tomboy, and she wasn't terribly interested in the rather more girly aspects of life. :)
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  #428  
Old 02-24-2013, 06:56 PM
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Once the dukedoms etc are vacant can't the Queen re-issue them to someone else?


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  #429  
Old 02-24-2013, 07:01 PM
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The dukedoms will not become vacant. The eldest son of the current Duke of Kent inherits the title. What I was saying was that they will no longer carry out royal duties
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  #430  
Old 02-24-2013, 07:05 PM
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Once the dukedoms etc are vacant can't the Queen re-issue them to someone else?
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When a Peerage title becomes extinct (no heirs to inherit it) or merges with the Crown (if the holder becomes Monarch), then the Sovereign is indeed free to issue new creations of the title. However, that's not what will happen to he Dukedoms of Kent and Gloucester: they will merely stop being Royal Dukedoms, but since both the current Duke of Kent and the Duke of Gloucester have male issue, the Dukedoms will be inherited by their respective eldest sons.

A Royal Dukedom is a Dukedom held by the Monarch's Consort, the Monarch's sons and male-line grandsons. A Royal peerage title (usually Dukedom) has precedence over all other titles. For instance, the Duke of Cambridge title may have been created just two years ago, yet it has precedence over the Duke of Norfolk title which is substantially older. The Earl of Wessex title also has precedence over higher peerage titles - Marquisates and Dukedoms - simply because it's a royal peerage title.

When such a Dukedom in inherited by people more distantly related to the Monarch (great-grandchildren for instance), it becomes an ordinary Dukedom and takes precedence by normal peerage rules (first, by ranking - Dukes, Marquises, Earls, etcetera - then by the date of creation).
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  #431  
Old 04-11-2013, 07:29 PM
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The CC does refer to her, on occasions as a peer - e.g. The Queen, The Duke of Lancaster...
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  #432  
Old 04-11-2013, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
The CC does refer to her, on occasions as a peer - e.g. The Queen, The Duke of Lancaster...
That's true. And I believe when in the Duchy of Lancaster they refer to her as the Duke of Lancaster (not Duchess - always Duke, for a King OR a Queen regnant).

Also in the Channel Islands she is the Duke of Normandy, like Charles is referred to as the Duke of Rothesay when in Scotland.

So really she is a Queen but also has lesser titles of Duke and Duchess (and Countess and Baroness too, from Philip's subsidiary peerages).
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  #433  
Old 04-11-2013, 08:00 PM
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The Duke of Lancaster isn't a peerage title as such any more though. It's part of the titles of the Monarch - along with the Duke of Normandy, etcetera - ever since it merged with the Crown back when it was a peerage title. It's not even counted among the Dukedoms in the Peerage of England (or any other, for that matter).
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  #434  
Old 04-11-2013, 08:25 PM
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The argument as to whether or not the Duchy of Lancaster is a peerage was made awhile back in the conversation regarding Camilla's future title. I think the consensus reached was that it's not technically a peerage, more a courtesy title used by the monarch.
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  #435  
Old 04-11-2013, 08:34 PM
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There is nothing 'courtesy' about it.

It is a title held by the monarch and only the monarch.

A 'courtesy' title is one the person is allowed to hold but isn't really theirs but someone else's e.g. The Earl of Ulster is actually also The Duke of Gloucester but his elder son and heir uses Earl of Ulster as a courtesy to show that he is the heir.

The Duke of Lancaster is a substantive title held by The Queen and used when dealing with the Duchy of Lancaster business, along with her title of The Queen - and as she is the one who approves the CC I am sure that she knows what she is doing in allowing herself to be referred to as The Duke of Lancaster.

A title that has merged with the Crown is no longer in existance and can be regranted. The Duke of Lancaster title can't be regranted as it is an automatic title held by the monarch.
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  #436  
Old 04-11-2013, 08:37 PM
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Can a Queen consort use the title of Duchess of Lancaster?

That would be a solution for the Duchess of Cornwall's dilemma (although I prefer to see her as Her Majesty the Queen).
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  #437  
Old 04-11-2013, 08:43 PM
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A title that has merged with the Crown is no longer in existance and can be regranted. The Duke of Lancaster title can't be regranted as it is an automatic title held by the monarch.
The Duke of Lancaster title merged with the Throne when its last holder (as a peerage title, obviously) became King. Since then, the Duchy of Lancaster has been providing the Monarch with income. And as head of the Duchy of Lancaster, the Monarch is called the Duke of Lancaster.

My point was that since the title merged with Crown (and all the peerage titles a person possesses at the time of his/her accession automatically merge with the Crown) and after it was decreed the title would belong to the Monarch, it ceased to be a peerage title. Nowhere, not in one single list of all titles in the United Kingdom in whatever peerage will you find a mention of the Dukedom or Duchy of Lancaster. At least, not in any credible ones.
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  #438  
Old 04-11-2013, 08:54 PM
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Can a Queen consort use the title of Duchess of Lancaster?

That would be a solution for the Duchess of Cornwall's dilemma (although I prefer to see her as Her Majesty the Queen).
I don't think there is a straightforward answer to that question simply because such a situation has never taken place yet.

It is generally agreed the Duke of Lancaster cannot be considered a proper peerage title. Normally, a woman shares all of her husband's titles and styles, thus if the King were a Duke of Lancaster as a Peer, his wife would automatically be the Duchess. However, the Sovereign - as fount of all honours - cannot hold a peerage title. That means the rules that would normally apply to peerage titles don't work here.

My personal opinion is that it would be wrong for the Duchess of Cornwall to be known as the Duchess of Lancaster simply because the title (in whatever form, the Duke or the Duchess) belongs to the Sovereign only. In that respect, it is similar to the Dutch title The Prince(ss) of Orange: it belongs to the Heir(ess) Apparent only, and never to his/her spouse. Thus, Princess Maxima - the wife of the current Prince of Orange - isn't the Princess of Orange. This said, if King Charles said that it is his wife's desire to be addressed to as the Duchess of Lancaster, then it would be so.


I should also note that while Queen Victoria (and Queen Elizabeth now) use the male version of the title - the Duke of Lancaster, the female version does exist. During the reign of Mary I, the feathers on the official seal of the Duchy bore the letters M.R.D.L, which stood for Maria Regina Ducissa Lancastriae (Mary, Queen, Duchess of Lancaster).
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  #439  
Old 04-11-2013, 09:40 PM
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There is nothing 'courtesy' about it.
It is a title held by the monarch and only the monarch.
Sorry, Iluvbertie, I misspoke. Thank you for correcting me.
I meant to say that it is more a styling (not a courtesy title), and not a title in itself. An individual who holds the title of Duke (or Duchess in her own right) is a member of the peerage. The Queen, as the source of all titles, cannot be a member of the peerage, therefore she cannot hold a title that is a peerage - therefore the Duke of Lancaster is a styling and not a title in itself.

As you pointed out, the current Earl of Ulster holds his title by courtesy through his being the Duke of Gloucester's heir apparent. However, in the event of the Duchy of Gloucester going extinct or merging with the crown, one day the Earldom of Ulster could be created by itself, or the Duchy of Gloucester created without the Earldom of Ulster. The Duchy of Lancaster cannot go extinct or merge with the crown, and cannot be created separate of the crown, suggesting that it in itself is not a title the monarch holds but rather a styling associated with land.

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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
Can a Queen consort use the title of Duchess of Lancaster?
This is what the debate was in regards to her future titles. That she would be the Queen consort regardless, but that she could use one of Charles' lesser titles, i.e. Duchess of Lancaster, as she does now.

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I should also note that while Queen Victoria (and Queen Elizabeth now) use the male version of the title - the Duke of Lancaster, the female version does exist.
Victoria (I believe) used the male version because she decided that the title "Duchess" was in reference to a Duke's wife and thus used only by courtesy. As she held the Duchy of Lancaster in her own right (regardless of whether it's a title or a styling) she didn't want to be seen as lesser.
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  #440  
Old 04-11-2013, 09:43 PM
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You are quite right on this. I merely pointed out that while Victoria and Elizabeth II have used the male form of the title, previous Queens Regnant (definitely, Mary I, Elizabeth II and, if I am not mistaken, Queen Anne and Mary II as well) have all used the female form.
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