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  #381  
Old 03-25-2011, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by lwbohm View Post
I think edward deserves the title duke of edinbourgh.
He has worked hard for his fathers legacy and although sticky i think it is deserving.

And he will probably get it - when it is available at some time in the future but...first of all it has to be available for regrant and that can't happen until both the Queen and the present Duke are dead. It is also necessary that either Charles or William are alive to become King (and there is no reason why they shouldn't be but...). If William has a daughter first and then he and Charles die before the Queen then Harry will inherit Edinburgh and it won't be available for Edward - that is why the announcement in 1999 included the mention of the death of both the Queen and Philip and the title merging with the crown.
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  #382  
Old 04-20-2011, 12:45 PM
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The Battenberg/Mountbatten family name did not have an auspicious beginning. However, it has become very important in British history.

I raised a point in another thread. Prince Phillip seems very concerned about his family name not vanishing. All the male line Mountbatten lines seem to be dead. The children of Viscount James will be non-royal and have the surname Mountbatten-Windsor. I thought that Prince Phillip would like to see them also bear the ducal name of Edinburgh.

Of course there was no positive way to know that Edward would have a son. But he seemed to be the last hope. Princes Harry and William could eventually have common male line descendants , but since that may not happen for many decades, the hyphenated last name may be ignored by then.

The limited response I got was this idea has no merit. That Prince Edward wanted to be an Earl, simply because he wanted lower visibility. The following news article suggest that Prince Edward got the name from the movie character in Shakespeare in Love.

Anyone else see some validity to this theory that the motivation to make Edward a temporary Earl may have come from Prince Phillip ? If you think the idea is stupid, then I will accept that opinion as well.

Although you can always postulate scenarios, it is highly unlikely that Prince Edward will not receive the title of Duke of Edinburgh
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  #383  
Old 04-20-2011, 03:07 PM
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Posts about the revenues from the Crown Estate have been moved to the Royal Wealth and Finances thread
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  #384  
Old 04-20-2011, 04:16 PM
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I don't know how much Philip really cares at this point in his life about "Mountbatten". It was never a real family name, but in fact, was totally made up in 1917 by his grandfather when George V informed his German relatives who were British subjects to relinquish their royal styles and titles.

Philip was never a Mountbatten. He was born a Prince of Greece and Denmark and like most titled royals, never had a surname.
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  #385  
Old 04-20-2011, 06:05 PM
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It is more symbolic to him to pass on something to his children and grandchildren.

He also most certainly did use the name Mountbatten. That was the name he chose when he became a British citizen so he was Lt Philip Mountbatten. It was also the name that was used officially on the wedding programme in 1947 - because that was all done before his creation as Duke of Edinburgh. e.g. Queen Elizabeth II & Prince… - General Memorabilia - Charles Leski Auctions Pty. Ltd. - Antiques Reporter

This image clearly refers to Philip as Lt Philip Mountbatten and is an invitation to their wedding.
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  #386  
Old 04-20-2011, 07:14 PM
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Yes, of course. But my point is he had to assume a surname as part of his naturalization process before he married The Queen. It wasn't something he was particularly attached to and he soon became a Royal Duke afterward, again with no surname.

Royal do not usually use a surname as they are titled and of royal rank.
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  #387  
Old 05-14-2011, 04:14 PM
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Hello!
I am most probably the latest member of this great forum, an Austrian student (18) with some minor ties to German and British nobility. As I am very interested in Britain, I have a question nobody has ever been able (or willing) to answer:
I do know that except the Duchy of Lancaster and the Duchy of Cornwall no Royal Dukedom is associated with lands or estates (p.e. the Dukedoms of Kent, Gloucester, York, Cambridge and many other currently unassigned ones as well). However, there are sill many non-royal dukes (I'm not sure whether really all) that still own vast amounts of lands. (In 2005, the Duke of Norfolk even had difficulties obeying the law that called for land registration.) So, WHY are members of the reigning house not conferred on dukedoms that go along with land property? Wouldn't it be self-evident that is people who carry out public and royal duties to possess these rewards for serving the Crown (which dukedoms orinially were)? Is there any official reason for that? Seems very illogical to me. Thank you in advance.
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  #388  
Old 05-14-2011, 04:18 PM
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What's the point in actually owning land when you're King or Queen of the entire country?
The public would probably say something about the royals owning more than they should. They have enough, why take the land that ordinary people could own?
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  #389  
Old 05-14-2011, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomeFriedrich7A View Post
As I am very interested in Britain, I have a question nobody has ever been able (or willing) to answer:
WHY are members of the reigning house not conferred on dukedoms that go along with land property? Wouldn't it be self-evident that is people who carry out public and royal duties to possess these rewards for serving the Crown (which dukedoms orinially were)? Is there any official reason for that? Seems very illogical to me. Thank you in advance.
The Queen and the Royal Family have access to numerous official residences and vast amounts of land held by the Crown Estate, as well as their private ownership of several estates throughout Britain.

The Royal Family privately owns Sandringham House (20,000 acres), Balmoral Castle (49,000 acres), Highgrove House (37 acres), Birkhall House (53,000 acres), Llwynywormwood (192 acres), Gatcombe Park (730 acres) and St. Mary's in the Isles of Scilly - the entire island is privately owned except the main settlement at Hugh Town.

Then, of course, they have the use of all the official residences held by the Crown (i.e. Buckingham, Kensington, St. James's, Clarence House, Windsor Castle and the Palace of Holyroodhouse).

It really has never been the case that a non-royal dukedom was created with land attached.. it was the other way around.. titles were generally conferred upon gentlemen who were already the owners of large estates.

The extant non-royal dukedoms have existed for centuries - Norfolk (1483), Somerset (1547), Grafton (1675), Beaufort (1682) and Bedford (1694) - to name a few.

With the exception of Grafton, all these titles existed in another form prior to the creation of the ducal title.

For example, the 1st Duke of Beaufort came from a line of Earls and Marquesses of Worcester, and there were Earls of Norfolk and Earls of Bedford before there were Dukes.. so these families have existed for far longer than the ducal titles they hold today. Naturally, these families acquired vast amounts of property and wealth over the centuries, which has been handed down to the heir of each generation.

More recent non-royal dukedoms like Fife (1900) and Westminster (1874), were conferred upon gentlemen who were already prominent members of the nobility with fortunes or connections.

The Duke of Fife came from a long line of earls and he happened to marry into the BRF, thereby becoming a duke. The Duke of Westminster also came from a line of earls and marquesses. He was a noted politician and philanthropist, and was the richest man in Britain when he was elevated.

In modern times, there have been no new creations of ducal titles other than those created for members of the royal family.. and since the royal family already owns or has access to vast estates, it has not been necessary to purchase, grant or bestow property along with the title..

Although individual estates have been purchased by members of the royal family as residences, those are private properties and are not connected to any title they may hold.. the same is true for the private estate of any non-royal duke. If a non-royal duke died without any male heir, the estate would be inherited by his daughter.. but she could not inherit his title unless there was a specific remainder allowing her to do so.

As far as royal duties are concerned, it is the main role of the BRF to carry out public duties and ceremonials for the British public. As a constitutional monarchy, their very existence depends upon the will of the British people.. and if they do not perform their duties, the monarchy could be abolished.

Hope this helps answer your question
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  #390  
Old 06-13-2011, 07:35 PM
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I read many posts back:
" If that happens while the Queen is still alive then Charles will add the Edinburgh titles to his present titles. When Charles becomes King the Edinburgh title will merge with the crown.
• If Philip outlives the Queen then the Edinburgh title will pass to Charles, who is already King, and thus will automatically merge with the crown."

So if Philip outlives the Queen according to this statement Philips Duke of E title passes to Charles who is already king and merges with the crown....so what will Philip be if not the DoE.?? Would he lose that title of DoE and be known as prince Philip
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  #391  
Old 06-13-2011, 08:15 PM
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No. Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh will retain his ducal title until he takes his last breath. He is also a Prince of the United Kingdom (created in 1957), and will remain a prince as long as he lives.

If the Queen dies before he does, he will not lose any of the titles he now holds.. but Charles will become king upon the death of his mother.

If events unfold this way, then as soon as Prince Philip dies the ducal title of Edinburgh will merge with the crown (because Charles is his eldest son and heir and will have already ascended the throne).

At that point, it is the intention and wish of the Queen and Prince Philip, that Charles (as King) will regrant the title to his brother, Prince Edward.. making him the new Duke of Edinburgh.

If however, Prince Philip dies before the Queen, then Charles (still as Prince of Wales) will inherit the dukedom of Edinburgh, the earldom of Merioneth and the barony of Greenwich. In this case, he will be the 2nd Duke of Edinburgh (of the 4th Creation), following his father.

Again, upon the death of the Queen, all of Charles' titles will merge with the crown when he succeeds to the throne.

When that happens, the title will be available again for regrant to Prince Edward.. and he will be the 1st Duke of Edinburgh (of the 5th Creation). I am assuming here that Edward would retain his title Earl of Wessex, and that the earldom of Merioneth and the barony of Greenwich may not be included in his ducal creation.. but one never knows - he may get those titles in addition to Wessex and Severn - or give up his current titles entirely.. for that we will have to wait and see.

I believe the intention has always been that Prince Philip's title is left as a lasting legacy within the family. Charles would not be able to hold the title for very long, as it will merge with the crown when he is king (William is now Duke of Cambridge and his situation will be the same as Charles' and Harry presumably will receive a royal dukedom in due course).. Andrew has no sons to carry on the title.. and so it will fall to Edward, who has a son to inherit after him..

Though Edward's children are entitled to HRH, his grandchildren will not be.. so his family is actually best suited to found a lasting ducal line.
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  #392  
Old 06-13-2011, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HM Queen Catherine View Post
When that happens, the title will be available again for regrant to Prince Edward.. and he will be the 1st Duke of Edinburgh (of the 5th Creation).
I'm sorry, I don't understand this... Why 1st Duke, of the 5th Creation? Why not 2nd Duke? And what are the "creations"?
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  #393  
Old 06-13-2011, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Daphoenyx View Post
I'm sorry, I don't understand this... Why 1st Duke, of the 5th Creation? Why not 2nd Duke? And what are the "creations"?

When a new title is given out e.g. William becoming Duke of Cambridge on 29th April this year the technical term is 'created'.

As William didn't inherit this title directly from an ancestor who held the title Duke of Cambridge he is the 1st Duke of the current creation, which is actually the 5th creation of this title. This means that 4 times in the past the title was given to someone and then it has become extinct. So William is the 1st Duke of the 5th creation.

With Philip - he is the 1st Duke of 3rd creation (Wikipedia doesn't include the son of George III who was Duke of Gloucester and Edinburgh in its calculations of creations). Edward would thus be the 1st Duke of the 4th creation (unless he inherited it directly which is possible but highly unlikely). If Charles inherits it during the present reign i.e. Philip dies before the Queen then Charles will be the 2nd Duke of the 3rd creation.
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  #394  
Old 06-14-2011, 05:22 AM
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Iluvbertie is right about the number of creations for the dukedom of Edinburgh.. I normally don't count the Gloucester and Edinburgh creation either, but I didn't have my database notations open when I wrote the reply.

There have only been three creations of the title "Duke of Edinburgh" - Prince Philip being the 3rd Creation - so Prince Edward will be the 4th.

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  #395  
Old 06-14-2011, 06:34 AM
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I have to confess that my eyes glazed over whilst reading about "creations" :-)
But my question is: what is the correct verb in these transactions - is it "confer" or "create" or what ?
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  #396  
Old 06-14-2011, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Renata4711 View Post
I have to confess that my eyes glazed over whilst reading about "creations" :-)
But my question is: what is the correct verb in these transactions - is it "confer" or "create" or what ?
The correct word is Create.
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  #397  
Old 06-14-2011, 04:35 PM
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Thanks Iluvbertie for the explanation! Now it's all clear to me
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  #398  
Old 01-29-2012, 12:21 PM
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I'm not sure if this has been asked or discussed and as I'm on my phone it would take me ages to go through the whole thread so forgive me if it has...

Do Dukedoms have any order of precedence? If P. Phillip and P. Charles die, and P. William becomes Duke of Edinburgh is it a higher title, or is it equal to that of Duke of Cambridge? (I'm fairly sure I already know the answer I just want to verify).

Also when P. Charles ascends the throne and P. William is made the Prince of Wales (I'm assuming, based on tradition, this will happen. I am aware it's not an inheritable title, so I'm making the assumption that he will be made PoW), do we think he and Catherine will be known by those titles, or stick with being "The Cambridges'," as that's who they've been since marriage as how their children will be recognized? Or will they all switch (children included) to being "the Wales',"?

Hopefully that makes sense...
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  #399  
Old 01-29-2012, 12:33 PM
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Until they are created Prince of Wales, they will be known as Dukes of Cambridge and Cornwall, after the creation they will use the Wales title, because PoW is superior. e.g. George V.
George V - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 01-29-2012, 06:09 PM
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Dukedoms do have an order of precedence, yes. When Philip dies, his dukedom passes to Charles. Charles would then be the Duke of Edinburgh, along with all his other titles. When Charles dies, the title merges with the crown to be re-created for another person. It is expected that Charles will create a new Dukedom of Edinburgh for the current Earl of Wessex. Now, if Philip and Charles die before the Queen does, William becomes the Duke of Edinburgh as the oldest male inheritor. He would then be the Duke of Edinburgh and Cambridge. I believe as the current Duke of Edinburgh is the consort of the Queen, if William were to inherit the title, it would take precedence over his current dukedom. So, he and Catherine would be the Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh and Cambridge, until such a time as the Queen creates William Prince of Wales. Once William is King, all his titles merge with the crown, and then he'd re-create the dukedom for his uncle.

To answer your question about what William and Catherine would be called after Charles takes the throne, the press would probably still call them the Cambridges until William is created Prince of Wales, at which point they'd be the Wales', just like his parents were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte_Aster View Post
Until they are created Prince of Wales, they will be known as Dukes of Cambridge and Cornwall, after the creation they will use the Wales title, because PoW is superior. e.g. George V.
George V - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Actually, they'd be the Duke and Duchess of Cornwall and Cambridge, with Cornwall coming first as Duke of Cornwall is the title of heir to the throne. George V wasn't the Duke of York and Cornwall, he was the Duke of Cornwall and York.
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