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  #361  
Old 08-02-2010, 01:12 PM
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So there are only two Duchy (ies)....and the rest are Dukedoms.
And they are in fact different because of income?
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  #362  
Old 08-02-2010, 01:50 PM
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The Queen is also Duke of Normandy, so would that not count as a duchy aswell.

A duchy is ruled over by a Duke, I don't know what differs Lancaster and Cornwall from others such as Windsor or Cambridge, possible to do with money. Or the fact they belong to the Crown.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchies_in_England
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  #363  
Old 08-02-2010, 02:09 PM
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I Believe that is the key...that these dukedoms belong to the Crown.
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  #364  
Old 08-02-2010, 06:45 PM
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Riveting stuff people....I love reading all this.


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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
There are no duchies in the UK except for Lancaster and Cornwall.
Yes I should have said Dukedom instead of Duchy.It's what I meant of course...thank you
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  #365  
Old 08-02-2010, 07:27 PM
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I Believe that is the key...that these dukedoms belong to the Crown.
Actually, any Peerage created by the Crown for a member of the royal family is considered to be of the "blood royal" meaning it can only pass through "heirs of body". Unlike other peerages, upon merging with the Crown, it is eventually re-created for another member of the royal family then living.

So, in that sense, these Peerages always are associated with the Crown even after a successor no longer holds royal rank as HRH. This will happen with Kent and Gloucester after the deaths of Princes Richard and Edward, and would have occurred with Windsor as well if The Duke had male issue.
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  #366  
Old 08-02-2010, 07:28 PM
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But how do the other dukedoms differ from the Duchies?
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  #367  
Old 08-02-2010, 07:35 PM
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A duchy was traditionally associated with an independent, sovereign state in Europe during the Holy Roman Empire or in Germany before unification under the Empire in 1871.

Great Britain really never had a collection of duchies that were truly independent, although the Crown in medieval times would certainly award Peerages to loyal, wealthy supporters associated with geographic areas under their feudal and military control. But, even if in name only, these feudal peers pledged allegiance to the Crown and a united England.

Lancaster and Cornwall are called "duchies" because, by Act of Parliament, they are held by The Sovereign in right of the Crown and the income is paid without restriction to provide funds for the monarchy not under the control of Parliament.

Given that George III surrendered the Crown Estate, it is somewhat compensation to the monarchy to retain these lands, although in reality, they belong to the State and are not their personal property. If the Crown is dissolved, these lands return to the State, not the royal family.
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  #368  
Old 08-16-2010, 05:46 PM
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Isn't that all about that the Duchies are some portion of land that is the property of the Sovereign, and the Dukedoms are just titles, not connected to any land, in name only?
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  #369  
Old 08-17-2010, 04:54 PM
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Isn't that all about that the Duchies are some portion of land that is the property of the Sovereign, and the Dukedoms are just titles, not connected to any land, in name only?
Yes, pretty much so. And the property actually held by the Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster are not limited to those areas. They hold property all over Britain, including in London.
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  #370  
Old 08-20-2010, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg View Post
Given that George III surrendered the Crown Estate, it is somewhat compensation to the monarchy to retain these lands, although in reality, they belong to the State and are not their personal property. If the Crown is dissolved, these lands return to the State, not the royal family.
It's not automatic that the Crown Lands belong to Parliament and the British people, it's simply been tradition that every Monarch since George III has continued to give up the revenue from them in return for the fixed payments from the Civil List.

From the official Crown Estate website -
Quote:
an agreement was reached that the Crown Lands would be managed on behalf of the Government and the surplus revenue would go to the Treasury. In return the King would receive a fixed annual payment - today known as the Civil List. This agreement has, at the beginning of each reign, been repeated by every succeeding Sovereign.
Unless it has been changed over the years, which I am not aware of, the Duchy of Lancaster was specifically created separately from the rest of the Crown Lands so that, in the event of the Throne being lost, the Lancaster Dukes would still have access to its revenues and funds.

The Duchy's own website says the following as part of its history:
Quote:
The regulating charter was known to contemporaries as the Charter of Duchy Liberties. Later the Great Charter of the Duchy specified that the inheritance should be held separately from all other Crown possessions, and should descend to Henry's (of Bollingbroke, son of John of Gaunt, the first Duke of Lancaster - my addition) male heirs.

Henry was anxious that the Lancaster possessions should not merge with other Crown interests, and be lost to his family should he lose the throne. Keeping the inheritance separate was a shrewd move to protect his descendants' inheritance.
A charter of 1485 confirmed the Duchy as a distinct entity to be enjoyed by subsequent Sovereigns, separate from other Crown lands, and under its own management. There has been no fresh settlement since.

Similarly, the Duchy of Cornwall is held independent of the Crown Estate even though it is managed by it, and cannot be passed over. If there were no Duke of Cornwall the estate would become vested in the Sovereign but would not become part of the Crown Estate. It would be held until the next heir to the throne was born and became automatically Duke of Cornwall.

Both Lancaster and Cornwall duchies have special rules which apply only to them including the right to any estate where no named heirs are left (instead of the property going to the Crown/Government) and they have their own Attorney-Generals. Both Duchies also appoint their own Sheriff rather than the Crown.

Most ducal land holdings in the UK exist outside of their titual counties, it's one of those lovely quirks of history. If I remember rightly, the Duke of Devonshire holds no lands whatsoever in Devon. There is a lovely folk tale that James I, when asked what the title for the Earldom should be, misheard Derbyshire (where most of the lands are held) as Devonshire and thus created William Cavendish Earl of Devonshire.

As an aside, I interviewed the current Duke of Devonshire shortly after he took over the titles and prepared to move from his home in Bolton Abbey, Yorkshire, down to Chatsworth. He is a lovely man and very supportive of the tenants of the Devonshire Estate.
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  #371  
Old 08-22-2010, 08:10 PM
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Sussex or Cambridge are the best available royal dukedoms for The Prince Henry and Edward should have simpy been given one or the other instead of generating confusing, contradictory claptrap about the prestigious Edinburgh title. However, Prince is a higher rank and title than Duke and the only value of conferring the inferior honour of a dukedom is to create a dynasty - since Prince is limited in hereditability and duke is not.
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  #372  
Old 08-22-2010, 08:48 PM
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Sussex or Cambridge are the best available royal dukedoms for The Prince Henry and Edward should have simpy been given one or the other instead of generating confusing, contradictory claptrap about the prestigious Edinburgh title. However, Prince is a higher rank and title than Duke and the only value of conferring the inferior honour of a dukedom is to create a dynasty - since Prince is limited in hereditability and duke is not.

Just a note - Harry is not yet 'The Prince Henry'. He will be when Charles becomes King but until then he is Prince Henry of Wales, just as William is Prince William of Wales but Charles, Anne, Andrew and Edward of The Prince/Princess as they are the children of the monarch.

The 'of Wales', 'of York', 'of Gloucester' and 'of Kent' indicate that the holder isn't the child of the monarch and thus isn't entitled to the 'The Prince/Princess ...'
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  #373  
Old 08-22-2010, 08:49 PM
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As an aside - Duke of Rothesay is the title that is used by Prince Charles, instead of Duke of Cornwall, when he is in Scotland. Camilla is, therefore, correctly titled Duchess of Rothesay when she is in Scotland.

The Queen is, I believe, also Duke of Normandy, and is because of this the ruler of the Channel Islands (which are not part of the United Kingdom).
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  #374  
Old 11-25-2010, 03:34 PM
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Edward could potentially end up with several titles if King Charles III creates him Duke of Edinburgh. Why? Because the titles Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn have been granted already. The Dukedom of Edinburgh could be granted on its own, but it could be granted with another Earldom and a Barony.

I believe the reason for stating that Edward will eventually become Duke of Edinburgh is that he is heavily involved in the Duke of Edinburgh scheme founded by his father. Now he could have kept this up with a different Dukedom, but I guess the feeling is that eventaully taking his Father's title is a way of continuing the link in a more visible manner.

What I still can't figure out is why the title Earl of Wessex was revived for him. There are plenty of other titles with royal associations that he could have been granted as an Earldom, even if it is a very old Royal title. What next though - Earl of Mercia as a subsiduary title for Prince William?
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  #375  
Old 11-25-2010, 08:17 PM
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What next though - Earl of Mercia as a subsiduary title for Prince William?
Duke of Bernicia, Earl of Mercia and Baron Rheged has a nice ring to it. And if all fails I suppose they can make him king of Avalon .

----

Is the Iverness title used these days? It was used for the 2nd wife of the duke of Sussex (one of the sons of George III, and it does has a nice ring to it. Duke of Kendal can be nice too. It was used for a (short lived) son of James II and Anne Hyde, and later for a mistress of George I. I hope they will revive some of these older and less familiar titles in the years to come.
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  #376  
Old 11-25-2010, 08:36 PM
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I think either the Duke of York has Iverness as one of his subsidary titles. Its either him or the Duke of Edinburgh.
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  #377  
Old 11-25-2010, 08:41 PM
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I have looked it up and it is indeed the duke of York who has Iverness (earl of =) as a subsidary title. Thanks!
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  #378  
Old 11-25-2010, 09:20 PM
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It's Inverness, not Iverness (sorry to be picky)
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  #379  
Old 11-26-2010, 04:28 AM
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I have looked it up and it is indeed the duke of York who has Iverness (earl of =) as a subsidary title. Thanks!
It was also the secondy title of King George VI. before he became King.
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  #380  
Old 03-25-2011, 05:31 PM
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I think edward deserves the title duke of edinbourgh.
He has worked hard for his fathers legacy and although sticky i think it is deserving.
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