Royal Dukes, Royal Duchies and Royal Ducal Titles 1: Ending 2022

[Rudolph]

William's style and title in full is His Royal Highness Prince William Arthur Philip Louis, Duke of Cambridge, Earl of Strathearn, Baron Carrickfergus, Royal Knight Companion of the Most Noble Order of the Garter Knight of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle Personal Aide-de-Camp to Her Majesty The Queen

William's more formal style

"William hath the Title of Grace, and being writ to, is stil'd, most High, Potent and Noble Prince: And Dukes of the Blood are stil'd, most High, most Mighty, and Illustrious Princes." "Dukes are usually stil'd by the King or Queen our Right Trusty and Right entirely Beloved Cousin, and when of the Privy Council, then with the Addition of Counsellors."

 

[royal-blue]

Is it possible that a third royal duchy could be founded to provide an income for the heir to the heir to the throne, when there is one? This would give Willuam his own independent income.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Is it possible that a third royal duchy could be founded to provide an income for the heir to the heir to the throne, when there is one? This would give Willuam his own independent income.

The Duchy of Cornwall alone generates more money than some European monarchies get in total... There are plenty of funds to finance the functional and private costs of the Duke and his heir.

[...]The one scenario when it's not merge, would require Charles in his 60s, a 33 yr old William and a 2 yr old George to die before the 89 and 94 years old Queen and Philip. This is highly unlikely to happen.

When Prince Philip dies today, his eldest son The Prince of Wales will be the 2nd Duke of Edinburgh, so I don't understand your point. The Dukedom will always merge with the Crown when Prince Philip dies while his eldest son is King. As long as Charles is no King, he will see the titles Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth and Baron Greenwich added to his impressive titulature.

 

[Skippyboo]

When Prince Philip dies today, his eldest son The Prince of Wales will be the 2nd Duke of Edinburgh, so I don't understand your point. The Dukedom will always merge with the Crown when Prince Philip dies while is eldest son is King.

You didn't read the scenario properly. The way that it doesn't merge with the crown is for Charles, William and George to die before Philip and the Queen. So Charlotte becomes Queen and Harry inherits the DoE title. No one said it doesn't merge if the first born males Charles, William or George come to the throne. There is a very remote scenario where it doesn't merge with the crown.


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[MarNoe]

When Charles succeeds, won't William also become Duke of Edinburgh?
(Provided Phillip is no longer living, of course).

I thought it had been decided that Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex, was to succeed as Duke of Edinburgh.

 

[Skippyboo]

I thought it had been decided that Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex, was to succeed as Duke of Edinburgh.

It has been. But Edward isn't the heir to the Edinburgh title, Charles is. So when Philip dies, Charles becomes the Duke and when the Queen dies and Charles becomes King. The Edinburgh dukedom merges with the Crown and can be given to Edward as a new creation of the title.

The same thing will most likely happen to William's dukedom of Cambridge. It merges with the crown when William becomes King and isn't passed to George but maybe given to a second son of William and Kate. If George is ever the Duke of Cambridge that means that William died before ever becoming King.


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[Ish]

I thought it had been decided that Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex, was to succeed as Duke of Edinburgh.

Regarding the DoE title:

When the DoE dies, his title will pass on to his heir (the line of succession to the title is William, George, Harry, Andrew, Edward, James). If/when the holder of the title becomes the monarch, the title will merge with the crown. At that time, it is expected that the title will be recreated for Edward.

William will only become DoE if his father dies without the title merging with the crown - either Charles died without becoming King, or he becomes King and dies while his father is still alive.

Edward will only succeed to the title if it passes to him without merging with the crown - meaning that Charles, William, George, Harry, and Andrew would all have to die without becoming monarch.

 

[COESpiral]

Out of curiosity, why did Edward agree to an Earldom instead of being a Duke? Did he especially desire to be Duke of Edinburgh and opted to wait?

 

[Countessmeout]

Ish: You forgot Charles in your line of succession to the Dukedom when you listed, he obviously places before his son.

You're right he cant succeed unless those before him were to die. But the plan isn't for him to succeed the title. It is believed in all good reasoning, that Charles will out live his parents. At the time he ascends the throne the title merges with the throne and becomes extinct. At that point it can be re-created for Edward. That was what has been the plan it seems since Edward's wedding. So unless Charles dies before his parents, or he decides to be a jerk and ignore his parents' wishes, Edward will be DOE.

Considering the years that Edward has focussed on the DOE awards and been groomed to take them over, there is no reason to believe that this doesn't remain the plan.

 

[Rudolph]

Out of curiosity, why did Edward agree to an Earldom instead of being a Duke? Did he especially desire to be Duke of Edinburgh and opted to wait?

On the day of the marriage between Edward and Sophie (June 19, 1999) it was announced by Buckingham Palace that "The Queen, The Duke of Edinburgh and The Prince of Wales have also agreed that The Prince Edward should be given the Dukedom of Edinburgh in due course, when the present title now held by Prince Philip eventually reverts to the Crown."

 

[Ish]

Out of curiosity, why did Edward agree to an Earldom instead of being a Duke? Did he especially desire to be Duke of Edinburgh and opted to wait?

I suspect it's probably more owing to the DoE's desires than Edward's. The DoE hasn't passed on any titles to his children - since his wife became Queen, all the titles his children have held have been because of her, not him. Charles' titles are because he's the heir apparent, and Andrew has the title that once belonged to the Queen's father. Edward is the last chance for a child of the DoE's to pass on one of the DoE's titles.

Ish: You forgot Charles in your line of succession to the Dukedom when you listed, he obviously places before his son.

That I did - thank you for catching it. I would edit and correct, but it's not letting me do so on my phone.

 

[padams2359]

I think that if the DoE dies before QE2, the title will be held by Charles until she dies, then shortly after, be recreated for Edward. If QE2 dies first, shortly after the DoE dies, it will be recreated for Edward.

 

[Osipi]

I think that if the DoE dies before QE2, the title will be held by Charles until she dies, then shortly after, be recreated for Edward. If QE2 dies first, shortly after the DoE dies, it will be recreated for Edward.

It would have to be that way actually. The title wouldn't revert to the Crown until after Charles ascends the throne and the only way that would happen is the Queen dies. The whole intention is for the title of Duke of Edinburgh to be created for Edward. The only person that could possibly do this according to Edward's parent's wishes is Charles.

Now a real monkey wrench in the works would be if The DoE passes and Charles inherits the title but then dies before the Queen. William would inherit the DoE title from his father and it wouldn't be available to be created for Edward until the Queen passes. Then William would create Edward the Duke of Edinburgh. William also couldn't be Duke of Cornwall either in this scenario.

It sounds like a very illogical situation but with the longevity genes of the Windsors, one never knows for sure.

 

[Skippyboo]

Both the Queen and Philip have to both die for the title to merge. The Queen is going to be 90 so probably within 10 years. It will happen.


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[cepe]

There is a "sticky" thread which explains the rules of how the Edinburgh title will be managed.
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f23/the-future-of-the-duke-of-edinburgh-title-24343.html

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Out of curiosity, why did Edward agree to an Earldom instead of being a Duke? Did he especially desire to be Duke of Edinburgh and opted to wait?

Prince Edward allegedly liked the sound of the title Earl of Wessex in the 1998 film Shakespeare in Love.

Royal wedding: Prince William asks the Queen not to make him a duke - Telegraph

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Prince Edward allegedly liked the sound of the title Earl of Wessex in the 1998 film Shakespeare in Love.

Royal wedding: Prince William asks the Queen not to make him a duke - Telegraph

It is the Telegraph dear....



Don't believe any word of it. In the meantime Prince William -according the all-knowing media against his wishes- has been created Duke of Cambridge, Earl of Strathearn and Baron Carrickfergus. Wow... that will have caused a clash between Wills and Granny: "I told you so gran.... I do not want a Dukedom!"

Sure....

 

[Rudolph]

Of course the story is rubbish. William always knew her would be given a dukedom. He will also become Duke of Cornwall when his father becomes king.

Again, Edward is the anomaly. The only son of a sovereign in this dynasty going back to King George I not to be created a duke. It was announced he will eventually become Duke of Edinburgh, so we'll see what happens

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Don't believe any word of it.

I did say allegedly. However, the title Earl of Wessex had not been used since the 11th century, and I wouldn't be so sure that Prince Edward was less well-informed about contemporary films than medieval history.

 

[Denville]

He wasn't made a Duke for the same reason that his children aren't known as prince and Princess. The RF is "slimming down" and also at the time in 1999, they were still recovering from the unpopularity of the 90s and Dianas death. So they were being much more restrained, in terms of how they treated Edwards Marriage. It was more informal, it was at Windsor rather than London and Ed wasn't a duke nor were his children to be known as Prince/ss

 

[Iluvbertie]

It was also announced on their wedding day that the intention is that when the Edinburgh title merges with the Crown (after both The Queen and Philip die) he will be created Duke of Edinburgh. The expectation is that his brother will create him as that was the announcement back in 1999.

It had nothing to do with the unconfirmed reports of a 'slimming down' of the monarchy under Charles. It was all to do with the desire that one of Philip's sons would eventually end up with his title and thus pass that title on to his sons which is the expectation - Edward to end up with Edinburgh to then pass that to James.

 

[Countessmeout]

Giving Edward an earldom had nothing to do with the 'slimming down of the monarchy'. It has been understood since the wedding that he would be made Duke of Edinburgh one day. So he was granted a lesser title until that day comes. Same goes for Edward's kids, it was not about slimming down anything, it was a choice of the parents.

As for their wedding it was pretty natural. For someone who was as far down the line of succession as Edward was, a smaller private ceremony would be pretty customary. There was no need for a big splash, and the couple had a wedding that suited them. There were some foreign royals including Joachim, but it was more private.

 

[Denville]

Im sure Ed did not want to be the only one of tte queen's sons not to get a dukedom on marriage

 

[Osipi]

Watching the walkabout for the Patron's Lunch last weekend, it hit me just how meaningful it is what the BRF is doing as far as plans for Edward, Sophie and their children are concerned. Louise was addressed as Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor in many of the follow up articles. I believe it is the first time in a public setting that we have seen that surname actually used.

This, to me, is part of something every father is proud to see. Descendants carrying on his name which, IIRC, was a sore point for the DoE there for a while. Once Edward is created the Duke of Edinburgh, that title will also be passed down from Philip to his male descendants through Edward and James. So, to me, it makes sense that for now Edward is Earl of Wessex. These plans were drawn up at the time of the wedding I believe. Also, if I'm not mistaken, it will be Edward that carries on the work with the Duke of Edinburgh Award too.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Im sure Ed did not want to be the only one of tte queen's sons not to get a dukedom on marriage

And I'm pretty sure of the exact opposite. Edward does fantastic work with his father and he almost deserves that title when his father passes. However i don't think titles mean anything to the Wessex's as evident by the fact Louise didn't know her grandmother was The Queen until a couple of years ago.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Watching the walkabout for the Patron's Lunch last weekend, it hit me just how meaningful it is what the BRF is doing as far as plans for Edward, Sophie and their children are concerned. Louise was addressed as Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor in many of the follow up articles. I believe it is the first time in a public setting that we have seen that surname actually used.

Unless you exclude William's wedding when she was referred to as Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor in both the programme for the wedding and the CC the next day.

See pp. 8, 16, 17 and http://tinyurl.com/jgqhgar

This, to me, is part of something every father is proud to see. Descendants carrying on his name which, IIRC, was a sore point for the DoE there for a while. Once Edward is created the Duke of Edinburgh, that title will also be passed down from Philip to his male descendants through Edward and James. So, to me, it makes sense that for now Edward is Earl of Wessex. These plans were drawn up at the time of the wedding I believe. Also, if I'm not mistaken, it will be Edward that carries on the work with the Duke of Edinburgh Award too.

Edward and Sophie do more work for the DoE Awards Scheme now than Phillip. It forms a huge part of Edward's work. It was running at 57% of his engagements to the end of May.

 

[Osipi]

Unless you exclude William's wedding when she was referred to as Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor in both the programme for the wedding and the CC the next day.

See pp. 8, 16, 17 and http://tinyurl.com/jgqhgar

Edward and Sophie do more work for the DoE Awards Scheme now than Phillip. It forms a huge part of Edward's work. It was running at 57% of his engagements to the end of May.

What was that line again about the memory being the second thing to go?

Now that you've mention just how heavily Edward and Sophie are involved with the DoE Awards Scheme, it is just more poignant I think that eventually there will be another Duke of Edinburgh heading it up. All the more reason that Philip would be proud. His work as well as his name and title will be carried on.

 

[oldwest61]

Ok, so by 16 June 2016 (do not know investiture date), HRH Prince William, is now named Duke of Cambridge, has a commoner/proclaimed HRH Princess Katherine (nee Middleton) as his wife, and two adorable children, HRH Prince George, and HRH Princess Charlotte, and MAYBE a third child (twins?) on the way - no royal announcement yet...
I am new to the site, not new to genealogy, but I still get confused when one minute the titled are referred to by their actual names, and then again by their titles. It would help us newbies to get a clearer picture of the dynamics if a titled person is referred to by both their name and title in the same presentation/article, together at the same listing. PLEASE. This has also caused confusion in libraries because someone will come and ask questions like, "I descend from the Prince of Wales, and I want to know about him." Well, which Prince of Wales? "Idk". Even "the Lord Mayor of London" has come up, and again, well which one?
PLEASE consider doing this. Also, another point, one person may carry several titles - depending on the stage of life they are in, and honours received. He may marry as the HRH Prince of ????, but later be known and referred to as the Duke of Cambridge... (as an example, may not be correctly stated). Also, which creation if he 3rd Earl of ??? This comes to play when historical articles are written about past royals and nobles.
"WIKIPEDIA" is not entirely trustworthy, so please re-research in other sources before posting. They are trying to clean up their files, however, they frown on lists of titles, with just name, date, title, parents, spouse and children, so that the title can be followed easily into present day or state. They want full biographies. I told them that some people are not interested in what war he fought with John, but just about the title itself, and the family, but still they frowned. I am new here, but these are just a few points I wanted to bring up from a newbie. I do not mean to step on anyone's toes! Thanks!

 

[Osipi]

For the most part, finding information about a certain royal is pretty easy. Under the British forums, there are many, many subforums that deal with individual personages or things pertaining to British royalty such as ceremonies, historical residences or discussions of British titles and styles and how they are used.

As you have mentioned that you're interested in genealogy so thought I'd help you out and point you towards the section devoted to just those kind of topics. I think you'll enjoy perusing them. There are lots of discussions there about lineages, who is related to who and how, some of the people here have delved into lineages quite deeply.

Royal Genealogy - The Royal Forums

This thread here is basically to discuss British royal duke and royal duchies in general. There is a really good thread here too devoted to questions and answers and information about British titles and styles too.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f23/questions-about-british-styles-and-titles-258.html

Trust me. If its about anything royal related, there's probably a thread here that covers it.

 

[Denville]

And I'm pretty sure of the exact opposite. Edward does fantastic work with his father and he almost deserves that title when his father passes. However i don't think titles mean anything to the Wessex's as evident by the fact Louise didn't know her grandmother was The Queen until a couple of years ago.

Louise didn't know her grandmother was the queen???