The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > British Royals

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #341  
Old 07-02-2010, 07:56 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Canada, Canada
Posts: 978
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
The reason that it has always been available is simply the fact that every Duke of York who has had a son (actually a child) has become King and the others haven't had legitimate children. Consequently the title has always merged with the crown and thus seems to have not had the normal LPs.
That's pretty interesting, actually...that every Duke of York who has had a legitimate child has become king. Were any of these Dukes of York actually the eldest son or grandson of a sovereign?

I feel like there should be a legend/story associated with that--you know, similar to the idea that the Grimaldis are prevented by a curse from finding lasting happiness in marriage.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #342  
Old 07-02-2010, 09:02 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,424
No eldest born son has been created Duke of York but George V was the eldest living son, of the heir to the throne, when created Duke of York as his title was given to him some weeks after the death of his older brother.

A number of times the second son had been created Duke of York and then also been given Prince of Wales due to the death of their older brother e.g. Henry VIII and Charles I (along with George V). So they had been created Duke of York expecting their older brother, the Prince of Wales, to inherit but the elder brother died and then their fathers created them Prince of Wales as well.

George V's circumstances were different of course being the grandson of the monarch. He was created Duke of York even though he was then the second in line after his father and would become King and then Edward VII waited almost a year before creating him Prince of Wales so throughout 1901 he was known as Duke of Cornwall and York.

One Duke of York was the younger brother of the King when given the title (George I created his brother Duke of York) and later George II gave that title to the second son of his own eldest son.

Andrew will be the first Duke of York to have legitimate children not be become King (assuming that he doesn't of course). Henry VIII, Charles I, James II, George V, George VI all became King and the others died without legitimate children.

Whether there is a curse on the title or whether it is just coincidence I simply don't know but since the end of the Wars of the Roses that is the way it has been - title merging with the crown either due to no legitimate issue or the holder becoming King.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #343  
Old 07-07-2010, 06:35 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Louisville, United States
Posts: 12
Thank you for your response.

I found this link quite interesting -

Useranbarnesdavies/Royal peerages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #344  
Old 07-07-2010, 07:29 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Quad Cities, United States
Posts: 46
There is no "Traditional" set of courtesy titles for the peerages as the soverign sort of makes that choice. However, its usual for a royal duke to get one English/one Scottish/one Welsh or Northern Irish. For instance, William might want something Scottish because of his college, Harry might wants something remincent of the military. As an example, one of the Duke of Edinburgh's courtesy titles is Baron Greenwich becuase he's a navy man.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #345  
Old 07-07-2010, 07:31 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,424
There are no set lists and the rule these days is that the Queen and recipient work together to get a set that also reflects the range of areas within the realm. e.g. Andrew is Duke of York, Earl of Inverness and Baron Killyleagh (one in England, one in Scotland and one in Northern Ireland).
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #346  
Old 07-08-2010, 06:26 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Louisville, United States
Posts: 12
Thanks for the responses. I came up with a few more questions.

On this website - Useranbarnesdavies/Royal peerages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia they list peerages by "seniority". Does the "seniority" of a title really mean anything when they decide which ones to bestow upon someone? I keep reading that most people believe William could be named Duke of Cambridge. I see that "Clarence" is listed before Cambridge. I do realize that it depends upon when it was first created and Clarence was created before Cambridge. Just didn't know if there was a distinction between peerages that are "more important" than others. Make sense? Hope so.

Also have read before - probably on one of the forums on this website - that someone wondered if William could take a title dealing with St. Andrews since that is where he went to University and where he met Kate. I know he can't be named Earl of St. Andrews but what about Duke of St. Andrews? or Duke of Clarence and St. Andrews? Would St. Andrews be less "senior" to Cambridge? Of course William will one day have other titles and the ones he may receive upon marriage will revert back to the crown.

If William was named Duke of Cambridge or Duke of St. Andrews, could Harry be named Duke of Clarence, even though it's listed as more "senior" to the other two?

Last question - I know in other royal houses that a King/Queen have made the wives of their sons a "princess in her own right". I don't believe it has happened in the British Royal Family unless there was a time in the past that it happened. What would it take for Kate to be named a Princess in her own right? or is that just not done in the British Royal Family?

Just wondering.

Thanks so much for the information. I have fun reading everything.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #347  
Old 07-08-2010, 06:29 PM
wbenson's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: -, United States
Posts: 2,234
That doesn't appear to be any kind of official ranking. Peerages do have a seniority, but that's determined based on the date of the granting of the current creation of the peerage, and for royal peers it's not that relevant as their precedence is based on their royal status, not their peerages. (For example, after the deaths of the current Dukes of Gloucester and Kent, the new Duke of Gloucester will take precedence before the new Duke of Kent, as the current Dukedom of Gloucester was created in 1928 and the current Dukedom of Kent dates from 1934.)
__________________
TRF rules and FAQ
Reply With Quote
  #348  
Old 07-09-2010, 02:56 PM
Lumutqueen's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Carlton, York, United Kingdom
Posts: 17,105
Some peerages are more important that others such as Duke of Edinburgh ranks higher than Duke of Norfolk, most likely to do with land, or the person who bares the title.

Harry would get a title of lesser standing than his brother presumably, he might get additional titles when William becomes King. It all depends on what Harry wants in his future.

I don't see why Kate would become a Princess in her own right, no need. Surely she'd be satisfyed in the knowledge that one day she will hold the two most important titles Queen and Queen Mum.

Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester was allowed to be known as Princess Alice as a courtesy from the Queen.
Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent who was the last foreign princess to marry into the BRF was a princess in her own right.
__________________
We Will Remember Them.
Reply With Quote
  #349  
Old 07-09-2010, 06:39 PM
wbenson's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: -, United States
Posts: 2,234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
Some peerages are more important that others such as Duke of Edinburgh ranks higher than Duke of Norfolk, most likely to do with land, or the person who bares the title.
Peerages of the same degree are ranked by the date of the grant of the current creation. The Dukedom of Norfolk is much more senior than the Dukedom of Edinburgh (the former dates from 1483, the latter from 1947). However, the current Duke of Edinburgh was granted precedence just after the Queen regardless of his being a Duke. Royal dukes also rank above "plain" dukes.

Edit: Actually, it's not always by date:
  • Dukes in the peerage of England
  • Dukes in the peerage of Scotland
  • Dukes in the peerage of Great Britain
  • Dukes in the peerage of Ireland (before 1801)
  • Dukes in the peerage of the United Kingdom, and Dukes in the peerages of Ireland (after 1801)
Within those categories, they're ranked by date. (I'm not sure if Scottish dukes take precedence over English dukes in Scotland, though.)
__________________
TRF rules and FAQ
Reply With Quote
  #350  
Old 07-15-2010, 02:23 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Louisville, United States
Posts: 12
Something I don't quite understand. Can you have a Duke, Marquis or Earl of wherever even if someone is already known by a courtesy title? Example -

If you have a Marquis of Milford Haven you "can't" have an Earl of Milford Haven?

Another example - let's say there is an Earl of Cambridge (which I believe that name is not in use at the moment) but could there still be a Duke of Cambridge? or someone being a Duke and Earl of Cambridge, etc.

I hope my examples make sense!!!! :)

I knew there was an Eart of St. Andrews but didn't think it mattered when it came to the title Duke of Clarence and St. Andrews (since there is no Duke of St. Andrews from I understand).

This website Useranbarnesdavies/Royal peerages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia lists an Earl of Sussex - that's why I mentioned it. And in all of my reading I have seen where some are titled Duke and Earl of the same name.

Thanks!!! This has been interesting and fun!
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #351  
Old 07-15-2010, 03:21 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Quad Cities, United States
Posts: 46
See, I have always assumed that there can't be more than one of a "name" no matter if its a high title or courtesy title, hence my comment about there already being a St Andrews title in use. However, I don't know for sure.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #352  
Old 07-15-2010, 03:46 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Posts: 177
Hello Ashley Athena

I can understand your confusion. The duplicating of nobiliary names sometimes happens, by historical accident, or through succession. The eldest son of the Earl of Strathmore has the courtesy title, Lord Glamis, however the earl holds a very ancient title: Thane of Glamis. When a nobleman is raised to a higher degree (say from baron to earl) he may keep the territorial designation or be given another one. When a member of the Lambton family was made Earl of Durham, he was already Baron Durham.

I do hope this doesn't confuse you! There is a Dukedom of Sutherland and an Earldom of Sutherland, represented by different branches of the same family. This is because in Scotland females can inherit comital titles, but not ducal titles. The earls were raised to dukes of the same territorial designation (Sutherland), when a later duke failed male issue his ducal title went to a kinsman nearest to the first duke, but the earldom went to the duke's daughter. Also there are two earldoms of Arran, one in the Scottish peerage and one in the Irish peerage, and held by different families.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #353  
Old 07-15-2010, 11:36 PM
agogo's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: côte d'océan Pacifique, United States
Posts: 717
Why is Edward an earl and Andrew a duke? Why did Queen Elizabeth chose different titles for her two sons when they married?
Reply With Quote
  #354  
Old 07-16-2010, 12:32 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,424
Quote:
Originally Posted by agogo View Post
Why is Edward an earl and Andrew a duke? Why did Queen Elizabeth chose different titles for her two sons when they married?

It was announced at the time of Edward's marriage that if and when the title is available Edward will become the Duke of Edinburgh. That can't happen while either The Queen or the Duke of Edinburgh is alive and mightn't happen if certain other eventualities come into play. See The future of the Duke of Edinburgh title
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #355  
Old 07-16-2010, 12:38 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,732
Quote:
Originally Posted by NancyJJ View Post
Something I don't quite understand. Can you have a Duke, Marquis or Earl of wherever even if someone is already known by a courtesy title? Example -

If you have a Marquis of Milford Haven you "can't" have an Earl of Milford Haven?
Yes, it happens. Queen Victoria created her son The Prince Leopold, Duke of Albany and Earl of Clarence, then re-created Clarence for her eldest male-line grandson, Prince Eddie, as Duke of Clarence and Avondale.

Eddie died without male issue, so the dukedom is extinct. The Earldom of Clarence is still extant, but suspended, under the Titles Deprivation Act for the descendants of Charles Eduard, Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, who lost his British peerages in 1917 for bearing arms against Great Britain in World War I as a German duke.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #356  
Old 07-16-2010, 04:38 AM
Warren's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 15,352
Posts relating specifically to William and Harry and future offspring have been moved to the Titles and Styles of William, Harry, Wives & Children thread in the William & Harry subforum.

I know there's a degree of crossover but we'd like to keep the contents of the two threads fairly clearly defined as much as possible. For this reason discussion of possible dukedoms for Wills 'n Harry has been moved out of the 'Royal Dukes and Ducal Titles' thread.

thanks,
Warren
British Forums moderator
__________________
Seeking information? Check out the extensive Royal A-Z
Reply With Quote
  #357  
Old 07-19-2010, 12:07 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Posts: 177
Iluvbertie

Why would the Prince Edward have to wait until H.M. died to inherit his father's ducal title? The heir to any dukedom be it royal or otherwise (they are both peerages and technically a royal dukedom is no diferent from any other peerage; the exception would be the Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall) immmediately inherits the title on the death of the previous duke, though would not use the style and title until after the funeral and official mourning.

I find the current fashion for the sovereign to fudge issues to accommodate political stratergies, by limiting royal titles within her family a puzzle. We are frequently told H.M. acts on the advice of her ministers, yet by not appreciating the work of those so called "minor royals" as the Gloucesters, the Kents (including Prince Michael and Princess Alexandra) it looks a poor show.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #358  
Old 07-19-2010, 12:44 PM
MAfan's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: N/A, Italy
Posts: 4,322
If the Duke of Edinburgh died before the Queen, his title would be inherited by his eldest son, Charles; he would remain DoE until his accession to the Throne (at the Queen's death), when the title would return to the Crown. At that point he could re-create it for Edward.

If the DoE died after the Queen, the DoE title would return to the Crown, and King Charles could re-create it for Edward.

In any case, unless Charles, William, Henry and Andrew died before the DoE, Edward can become DoE only after a new creation of this title by his brother Charles (or his successor as King).
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #359  
Old 07-19-2010, 05:43 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hereditary Thane View Post
Why would the Prince Edward have to wait until H.M. died to inherit his father's ducal title?
As I said in the linked explanation the Duke of Edinburgh title is a normal royal title so inheritance is through male heirs of his body.

The line of succession to the Edinburgh title is: Charles, William, Harry, Andrew, Edward and James.

Edward therefore can't 'inherit' the Edinburgh title directly as Charles is the heir to that title just as he is the heir to his mother's titles. As a result the Edinburgh title won't be avaliable to be recreated for Edward until both the Queen and the Duke are dead and the title has merged with the crown.

However there are scenarios - spelt out in the link I put in my last post - whereby the title would never become available for Edward or he could inherit if directly although the most likely scenario is that after the death of both his parents his brother Charles created him Duke of Edinburgh in accordance with the wishes of his parents and the agreement made when Edward married.

It is not a case of Edward not using an inherited title until the death of both his parents but simply the fact that he, in all likelihood, won't be the one inheriting that title but will have to wait until it is available for regrant.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #360  
Old 08-02-2010, 12:51 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Campbell View Post
The Duchy of Windsor
There are no duchies in the UK except for Lancaster and Cornwall, both of which are enjoyed by The Sovereign and the eldest son and heir in right of it in the case of Cornwall. If the Dukedom of Cornwall is vacant, the revenues accrue to The Sovereign.

George VI suggested "Windsor" as a dukedom to associate the former King with the name of the royal house and the seat of Windsor Castle. Prince Edward liked it and agreed with his brother it was appropriate.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
dukedom, royal dukes, styles and titles


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Royal Titles Zina Royal Family of Brunei 23 01-10-2014 01:11 PM
Royal, Princely and Comital Titles MAfan Royal Families of Italy 31 11-26-2011 04:30 AM
Moroccan Royal Names and Titles bjanka66 Royal Family of Morocco 61 07-05-2011 07:21 PM
Royal Titles Through the Generations IslandDweller Royal House of Norway 13 02-24-2008 09:26 AM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
abdication birth charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events duchess of cambridge fashion grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta sofia jordan king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg olympic games ottoman palace pieter van vollenhoven poland pom president komorowski prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince felipe prince floris prince maurits prince pieter-christiaan princess princess alexia (2005 -) princess anita princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess claire princess laurentien princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess mary queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit wedding william winter olympics 2014



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:56 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]