Royal Dukes, Royal Duchies and Royal Ducal Titles

[Warren]

Well, they were tour de force debut posts Helvellyn!
Welcome to the Forums, and may there be many more.

[DuedePhiladelphia]

Originally Posted by MAfan

I guess it depends from where you are...I don't think in Britain they still call her Camilla Parker Bowles, but here in Italy they do...and more, each time they "create" new names and titles for her...
maybe in the USA they do the same...

I think that we call her by her civilian is because she wanted to be known as DOC. The American people is only familliar with the POW title---Plus DOC dosent roll of the tongue very well, now does it

[Osipi]

Originally Posted by DuedePhiladelphia

I think that we call her by her civilian is because she wanted to be known as DOC. The American people is only familliar with the POW title---Plus DOC dosent roll of the tongue very well, now does it

I think for the most part there aren't many people that haven't in some way become familiar with the relationship between Charles and Camilla over the years. What galls me is the rudeness of calling a woman married to her second husband by her first husband's surname whether it be the Duchess of Cornwall or the lady two doors down the block from the average citizen. I'm pretty positive that if at Charles and Camilla's wedding Camlla chose to retain her surname of Parker-Bowles it most likely would have been made public. My thought would be that she would take the surname Mountbatten-Windsor when she married Charles.

Ah.. the little things that peeve us off eh?

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by Helvellyn

I'm surprised nobody picked up on this, as Cornwall is an English Dukedom. It is conferred automatically on the male heir of the Sovereign alongside the Scottish Dukedom of Rothesay (which has the subsidiary titles Earl of Carrick and Baron Renfrew). The male heir (current the Prince of Wales) is also the Great Steward of Scotland and Lord of the Isles.

It isn't conferred. It is an inherited title and therefore there is no conferring at all.

Interestingly, the Scottish titles are used in Scotland only, with the English titles elsewhere. Since Prince Charles was created Prince of Wales (and Earl of Chester) it is the Princely title he uses outside Scotland, but in Scotland he is known as the Duke of Rothesay (and Camilla as Duchess of Rothesay).

In Cornwall Charles is known only as the Duke of Cornwall and not the Prince of Wales.

When Charles becomes King then William will automatically become Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay (plus Duke of X if he is granted another title in the meantime). It requires an Act of Parliament to create him Prince of Wales (and Earl of Chester).

It requires the issuing of Letters Patent by the monarch not an Act of Parliament.

[branchg]

Technically, Charles is Duke of Cornwall in England, Prince of Wales in Wales, and Duke of Rothesay in Scotland, as the eldest son and heir to the throne.

In the UK as a whole, he is "HRH The Prince Charles" as a son of The Sovereign. The title "Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester" is not a Peerage, although it traditionally was treated as such, so he is styled "HRH The Prince of Wales" as a matter of practice.

[Lumutqueen]

Originally Posted by Helvellyn

I'm surprised nobody picked up on this, as Cornwall is an English Dukedom. It is conferred automatically on the male heir of the Sovereign alongside the Scottish Dukedom of Rothesay (which has the subsidiary titles Earl of Carrick and Baron Renfrew). The male heir (current the Prince of Wales) is also the Great Steward of Scotland and Lord of the Isles.

It was originally conferred to Edward, The Black Prince. But a charter written in 1421 means it is automatically inherited from the Sovereigns eldest son to heir. Which means if William passes away when his father is King, Harry would not become the Duke of Cornwall.

Originally Posted by Helvellyn

It requires an Act of Parliament to create him Prince of Wales (and Earl of Chester).

As Iluvbertie has said, you are wrong in thinking an Act of Parliament is used to give the heir apparent thr Principality of Wales and Earldom of Chester. It is a letters patent.
The DofE question has been brought up many a time.

Originally Posted by Helvellyn

If the Dukedom was granted with new subsidiary titles, then Edward could hold a Dukedom, two Earldoms, a Viscountcy and a Barony!

In this case it's probably more likely that he will recieve the two subsidiary titles Earl of Merioneth and Baron Greenwich. And still keep the title Earl Of Wessex.

Originally Posted by Helvellyn

I'm surprised nobody mentioned that in the Channel Islands she uses the style Duke of Normandy, and on the Isle of Man the style Lord of Man. The former is still used in the Channel Islands as they were part of the Duchy of Normandy.

She is not the Duke in a constitutional capacity and instead governs in her right as Queen. This notwithstanding, it is a matter of local pride for monarchists to treat the situation otherwise: the Loyal Toast at formal dinners is to 'The Queen, our Duke', rather than 'Her Majesty, the Queen' as in the UK.
The Channel Islands are not represented in the UK Parliament but each island has its own primary legislature, known as the States of Guernsey and the States of Jersey, with Chief Pleas in Sark and the States of Alderney. Laws passed by the States are given Royal Assent by the Queen in Council, to whom the islands' governments are responsible.

Originally Posted by Helvellyn

Whilst this was answered by branchg in post #94, many people forget though that Angus Ogilvy declined an Earldom on his marriage to Princess Alexandra of Kent.

You are right The Queen had offered Ogilvy an earldom on his wedding, which he declined. He also rejected a grace-and-favour apartment at one of the Royal Palaces.

Originally Posted by Helvellyn

Camilla is officially HRH The Princess of Wales, though because of its association with Diana she uses the title HRH The Duchess of Cornwall. In Scotland she is HRH The Duchess of Rothesay, and Diana was known as that in Scotland as well, though of course to the rest of the world the Wales title is the one that was used.

Camilla's full title: Her Royal Highness The Princess Charles Philip Arthur George, Princess of Wales and Countess of Chester, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, Countess of Carrick, Baroness of Renfrew, Lady of the Isles, Princess of Scotland.

The only difference between that and Diana's title was that she had "Great Stewardess of Scotland" as well. It was easier to call her Princess of Wales, as that is her highest rank of title.

Originally Posted by Helvellyn

It has been stated however that she will be styled Princess Consort. This was one of the reasons for the abdication of Edward VIII because there was nothing to stop Wallis Simpson becoming Queen Wallis if she married Edward as King. Camilla will not be styled Queen though.

There was no way, that Wallis Simpson could of married King Edward and he still remained King. So if he wasn't King, she could never call her self Queen.
The abdication was because Edward had to choose between Wallis or the Crown.

Originally Posted by Helvellyn

I think it likely they would be granted Dukedoms on any marriage for either of them. In part this would be because if not then their wives would be styled HRH Princess William and HRH Princess Henry respectively!..

Originally Posted by Helvellyn

This leaves. Cambridge and Sussex as Royal Dukedoms that could be conferred. Sussex might be favoured for William as it is probably the least senior Royal Dukedom that has been used, so the fact it will be in time be joined (and superseded) by other titles might make it a choice.

Whatever dukedoms the princes are given their wives will always be HRH Princess William or Henry. They would just have add ons.
There is a specific thread discussing the titles the boys and their wives may receive: http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...dren-6755.html
I presume Harry will become Duke of Sussex. And William may or may not be given anything.

[branchg]

The wife of the heir to the throne does not use the styles of Lady of the Isles or Great Stewardess of Scotland, which reflect ancient titles of the eldest son of the Scottish King and were never held in the Scottish Peerage.

In Scotland, both Diana and Camilla were HRH The Princess Charles, Duchess of Rothesay, Countess of Carrick, Baroness Renfrew and Princess of Scotland. The last two are simply styles, not titles.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by lumutqueen

It was originally conferred to Edward, The Black Prince. But a charter written in 1421 means it is automatically inherited from the Sovereigns eldest son to heir. Which means if William passes away when his father is King, Harry would not become the Duke of Cornwall.

Except if William died with no children. At that point, Harry would automatically be the new Duke of Cornwall as the eldest son of The Sovereign and heir to the throne. Similar to what happened when Prince Eddy died (although he died while his grandmother, Queen Victoria, still reigned). The Duke of York became Duke of Cornwall as well when his father, Edward, became King.

[Helvellyn]

Originally Posted by lumutqueen

There was no way, that Wallis Simpson could of married King Edward and he still remained King. So if he wasn't King, she could never call her self Queen.
The abdication was because Edward had to choose between Wallis or the Crown.

My point was that at the time some tried suggesting a morganatic marriage could be arranged, so that Edward could remain King but that Wallis would not be Queen. As morganatic marraiges are not recognised in British law this was not possible and therefore it was the case that any marriage would have seen Walis become Queen. I'm fully aware that the Government made it clear to Edward VIII that a marraige would not be accepted and therefore it was the Crown or Wallis.

It is in that context I then made the point about Camilla. When Charles becomes King she will automatically be Queen. The plan though seems to be that she will not use the title to which she will be entitled, so when the time comes it will be interesting to see how the official announcement of her style is made.

We'd know this pretty quickly as it would liklely be announced after the Royal Proclamation of Charles asceding the throne where his title is formally announced. Most people expect he would rule as Charles III, though the odd report still surfaces that he might take the title George VII in memory of his Grandfather and also because of the histories of the two previous Kings called Charles - Charles I being beheaded and Charles II being a bit of a womaniser.

At least with either title the Royal cipher could be used throughout the country, as the Scots wouldn't be able to protest like they did about the use of EIIR in Scotland because there was never an Elizabeth I there.

I would assume those Commonwealth nations of which Charles became King would have to agree to accept the style as well, because Camilla would become Queen in each of those as well. Would be odd if we referred to her as Princess Consort in the UK, but she was referred to as Queen Camilla in say New Zealand or Canada.

[branchg]

I fully expect if Charles becomes King, then Camilla will be Queen. There is no other title or style for her to use as the wife of The Sovereign and the precedent of 1936 makes it clear the wife of The King cannot be styled as anything else. Anything else would introduce an indefensible legal argument with no constitutional foundation.

The present situation is acceptable because she is using one of her titles, Duchess of Cornwall, as her main style. She holds equal rank to her husband and shares all of his titles, including Princess of Wales, but has chosen not to use the senior one out of respect for the late Diana.

[ThePrincessWilliam]

I don't think Harry will really want to have his children be HRH lol. He just seem to want to stay out the spotlight and live his life and I am sure he will want the same for his children.
I also think its a great idea to downsize the RF because there are so many lol compared to other Royal Families. I think just like the Dutch Royal Family, William's children should be entitled to HRH Prince/Princess since he is the hier to his father and Harry's children should be given the titles of Lady or Lord.

I also have a question about William's title if he gets married. If he gets married before the Queen passes does he get a dukedom?? And if he does will he keep that dukedom when he become 1st in line to the throne or will he loss it? For example, if he becomes, lets say, Duke of Cambridge when he gets married and then the Queen passes and obviously he will become Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay cont...but will he still be Duke of Cambridge? I hope that all makes sense if not just ask me to clearify.

[wbenson]

If he gets a Dukedom, he will keep it until he becomes King or dies. George V, for example, didn't lose the Dukedom of York when his brother died and he became Duke of Cornwall.

[Iluvbertie]

Sorry but this post seems a bit confusing.

George V's older brother died nearly a decade before either of them could become Duke of Cornwall.
Albert Victor - Duke of Clarence and Avondale died in January 1892. In May that same year George V was created Duke of York.

In January 1901 George was still Duke of York and then Queen Victoria died. He then became Duke of Cornwall and for the majority of 1901 was known as Duke of Cornwall and York. It was using these two combined titles that he opened the first Australian Parliament in Melbourne on May 9th that year (we had become a Federation on 1st January 1901 - the first day of the 20th Century seen as an auspicious day on which to begin a new country but the first Parliament wasn't opened until May. In 1927 (again on the 9th May) of course the new Duke York, with his Duchess, opened the new Parliament House, leaving their baby girl, HRH Princess Elizabeth in London. That Princess Elizabeth, as Queen Elizabeth II opened the new Parliament House on the 9th May 1988. Maybe 9th May should be a public holiday here rather than 26th January???

You are right, of course, that if William is given a Dukedom on getting married e.g. Cambridge he will keep that title when his father becomes King so he would be known as the Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge, until created Prince of Wales (assuming that he is ever created PoW which is a topic for another discussion, I think.)

[wbenson]

How right you are.

[D.Schneider]

Ever since Henry VII united the rival houses of Lancaster and York through his marriage to the Yorkist heiress, the title of Duke of York has been a royal prerogative. As such, it was first held by the future King Henry VIII before his ascension as Prince of Wales after the death of Prince Arthur, his older brother. By tradition, the title has been accorded to the second son of the reigning monarch. Thus, it is currently held by Prince Andrew.

My question is that assuming that Prince Andrew predeceases his nephew, Prince Henry of Wales, and assuming nothing unexpected happens such as Prince Henry becoming heir apparent, will the title Duke of York be automatically accorded to Prince Henry as the second son of the current heir apparent (or quite possibly king by that time)? If so, would Sarah Ferguson, the current Duchess of York, lose the title (if still alive) upon the death of her former husband or can there be two Duchesses of York (assuming Prince Henry is married by then)?

Thanks for the information.

[Osipi]

It is my understanding that Sarah will have the style of Duchess of York until she passes away unless she remarries. Even if she remarried, then divorced, she could then resume the style of Duchess of York.

If Prince Henry became the Duke of York, his wife would be THE Duchess of York which is a title. Duchess of York as a style is a courtesy that denotes she was at one time the Duchess of York. Same with Diana, Princess of Wales. Should William marry Kate and be created the Prince of Wales when Charles becomes king, Kate would be THE Princess of Wales.

Hope I got it right.

[Lumutqueen]

I'm sure if that happened, Sarah would give up her style to avoid confusion. I don't believe that if she remarries then divorces, she can resume the title.
I wonder if she would give up the style, if Andrew remarried.
And don't forget that The Princess Of Wales, is now officially Camilla, she just chooses not to use the title because it was related so strongly to Diana.

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by D.Schneider

By tradition, the York title has been accorded to the second son of the reigning monarch.

It is not automatic - Queen Victoria gave her second son Duke of Edinburgh. It also wouldn't happen if Harry already has a dukedom - being the second son he won't get two dukedoms. Andrew is only 50 and could easily live another 30 years or more (both his parents are well over 80 so another 35 - 40 years is possible). By then Harry will be in his mid-50s and in all likelihood his brother will be King with his own second son possibly reaching marriagble age.

I don't think, in the normal course of events, that Harry will be Duke of York but that that title will be used by William for his second son (assuming he has one). Of course it would become a mute point if Andrew remarried and had a son as that son would inherit the title.

As for Sarah - she can continue to be known as Sarah, Duchess of York until she dies or remarried regardless of how many others people Andrew marries. She will always be entitled to that - like any other divorced wife of a peer.

[Osipi]

Originally Posted by Lumutqueen

I wonder if she would give up the style, if Andrew remarried.

Seeing as how important doors open for Sarah using the Duchess of York style, I think she would continue to use it even though Andrew's new wife would be The Duchess of York. Sarah would continue with the style much like the ex-wives any other peer.

I do agree that by the time the title of Duke of York becomes available, both William and Harry will be well established in dukedoms of their own.

[Lumutqueen]

I think that if Andrew or her children asked her to drop the style if anyone else were ever to hold the actual title, she would.