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  #241  
Old 11-27-2009, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
Marina was born HRH Princess Marina of Greece & Denmark, a style she relinquished with her marriage..
When did she 'reliquish' her Greek and Danish titles?
I have never heard or read that before so I would like to see the document she signed relinguishing those titles.

If she didn't sign a document then she always was HRH Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark although she didn't use those titles in the UK. Why they wouldn't recognise them I don't know.

I remember the comment from Edward VII about Queen Salome, I think, when someone commented about why that person was at his coronation and the way they were being treated and the comment was something along the lines of... - either she is a Queen and should be treated as one or she is a savage and shouldn't be here - and the same thing should have applied to Marina - she was born a Princess to a recognised royal family, even if deposed at times during the 1930s, but still recognised as one and she never ceased to be a princess of said royal house just because she married into another one.
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  #242  
Old 11-27-2009, 01:02 AM
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I have to honest that I thought that Marina was never obliged to renounce her titles and style as a Princess of Greece and Denmark.....only Prince Philip seems to have had to do this as otherwise Charles, Anne, Andrew and Edward would have been Princes and Princess of Greece and Denmark in addition to Princes and Princess of the United Kingdom blah blah! Such a situation could have proved most untidy and with hindsight problematic diplomatically! (Sorry for the frightfull English but it makes sense to me!!!!)

With regards to Marina I believe she was Princess of Greece and Denmark from cradle to grave!
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  #243  
Old 11-27-2009, 01:18 AM
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Somewhere in the depths of my mind I have seen a list of the line of succession to the Danish throne from about 1950, I think amongst some of my mother's royal stuff that she was given when working for the British High Commissioner in Canberra, that named both Philip and Charles as being in line to that throne. That was before the referendum that allowed female inheritance and restricted the line to those descended from a later generation than Philip and Charles.

I also remember Mum getting very hot under the collar when people would say that Philip renounced his claims to those thrones as she was adament that the British High Commissioner's attitude, while she was working there in 1947 - 1950 was that he renouced his use of the titles but not his rights to the thrones.

Just as Philip is in line to the British throne in his own right he was in line to both the Greek and Danish thrones.
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  #244  
Old 11-27-2009, 03:49 PM
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Lady Alice Montagu Douglas Scott was never "The Princess Henry" because by the time she and the late prince were married, he was officially titled "HRH The Duke of Gloucester". Thus, she became "HRH The Duchess of Gloucester". A royal wife (that is, a woman who marries into royalty) takes her husband's official titles. She does not take her husband's names unless they are part of his official title.

As an example, when the current Duchess of Gloucester married her husband, he was officially titled "HRH Prince Richard of Gloucester," so she was officially "Princess Richard of Gloucester". After he succeeded to the title of "HRH The Duke of Gloucester" she ceased to be "Princess Richard" and became "The Duchess of Gloucester".
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  #245  
Old 11-27-2009, 04:00 PM
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Why didn't Prince William of Gloucester and after his death Prince Richard use the courtesy title of Earl of Ulster?
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  #246  
Old 11-27-2009, 04:13 PM
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Iluvbertie....what a gem you have provided us with re:Prince Philip's position! I had always wandered about his position after he became plain Mr Philip Mountbatten. I thought that as he became a British subject his rights to the Danish and Greek thrones became void with his renouncement of his titles! Although perhaps the issue was discretionary and his position within the lines of succession to those thrones was decided by King Frederick IX and King Paul! Food for thought!!!!

As to the use of a husband's title eg. Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester.....I believe that Dickie Arbiter used to get very irritated when people referred to Diana as Princess Diana....he stated on occasion as did Lord St John of Fawsley that Diana was and should have been known as HRH the Princess of Wales or if not at least as HRH The Princess Charles and should never ever have been addressed or known by the style and name of Princess Diana. I believe the same custom would have applied to Alice Gloucester and can also be applied to the present Duchesses of Gloucester and Kent minus the 'The'!
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  #247  
Old 11-27-2009, 04:16 PM
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Why didn't Prince William of Gloucester and after his death Prince Richard use the courtesy title of Earl of Ulster?
Because they where Princes. As this is a higher title they are known by it and not a courtesy title.
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  #248  
Old 11-27-2009, 04:17 PM
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Ooops sorry to repeat you Stefan I was a bit slow off the mark!

The title of Prince of the Blood is of higher status than that of a courtesy title! Prince Arthur of Connaught used his higher title rather than be known as HRH the Earl of Sussex. Only non HRH heirs use their father's secondary title! I hope this makes sense!
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  #249  
Old 11-27-2009, 04:56 PM
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Yes, it makes sense; thank you both Connie and Stefan!
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  #250  
Old 11-27-2009, 06:35 PM
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Hi,

Very interesting postings on this subject and I've learned a lot from all of you...

My simple input into it is this:
I believe The Queen thought that Alice earned her right to be called Princess Alice.
She was an exemplary member of the Royal Family and universally loved by the public. She had done her part in bolstering the monarchy after the abdication and in supporting her husband's family through 3 reigns. And, provided 2 heirs in the line of succession (although farther down that line!!)...
So, if she meekly asked for a preferred title, then The Queen simply granted a beloved auntie her request, as was/is her right. And, everybody was happy - and that's all that counts....

Larry
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  #251  
Old 11-27-2009, 07:23 PM
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Under some aspects I agree with you, Larry; there is only one person who can decide to allow someone to use a title instead of another one, and this person is the Queen: if she agreed to allow Alice to use the title of Princess suo iure, as well she did with Princess Marina, I can't see which is the problem.
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  #252  
Old 11-27-2009, 08:08 PM
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Couldn't Princess Marina use the Princess title simply because she was a princess in her own right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAfan View Post
Under some aspects I agree with you, Larry; there is only one person who can decide to allow someone to use a title instead of another one, and this person is the Queen: if she agreed to allow Alice to use the title of Princess suo iure, as well she did with Princess Marina, I can't see which is the problem.
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  #253  
Old 11-27-2009, 08:54 PM
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Why didn't Prince William of Gloucester and after his death Prince Richard use the courtesy title of Earl of Ulster?

One way to help is to ask what title would James be using if he was known as HRH Prince James. He wouldn't then be known as Viscount Severn but Prince James. James is now in the same position as William and later Richard was when they were the heirs to their father's title but his parents have requested that he not use the HRH Prince James but rather the subsidiary title.
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  #254  
Old 11-27-2009, 09:04 PM
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Couldn't Princess Marina use the Princess title simply because she was a princess in her own right?
I tend to agree with you Mermaid1962 that Marina was quite within her rights to use her 'maiden' title in conjunction with her title as Duchess of Kent....I had no idea that it is believed that she renounced her Greek/Danish titles upon marriage to George Kent! I was always under the impression that Marina remained Princess of Greece and Denmark from birth to death and that she started using the Princess Marina style again 'by right' rather than by courtesy of the sovereign as Alice did!
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  #255  
Old 11-28-2009, 02:34 AM
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I've just done some "Googling", and I can't find a reference to Princess Marina renouncing her titles. I believe that she was still being referred to as "Princess Marina" at the time of her engagement and wedding to the Duke of Kent.
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  #256  
Old 11-28-2009, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by cmkrcwi View Post
Lady Alice Montagu Douglas Scott was never "The Princess Henry" because by the time she and the late prince were married, he was officially titled "HRH The Duke of Gloucester". Thus, she became "HRH The Duchess of Gloucester". A royal wife (that is, a woman who marries into royalty) takes her husband's official titles. She does not take her husband's names unless they are part of his official title.

As an example, when the current Duchess of Gloucester married her husband, he was officially titled "HRH Prince Richard of Gloucester," so she was officially "Princess Richard of Gloucester". After he succeeded to the title of "HRH The Duke of Gloucester" she ceased to be "Princess Richard" and became "The Duchess of Gloucester".
They are both. Once created a Peer, their wives take their style after their Peerage but with the rank of a Princess of the UK as HRH.
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  #257  
Old 11-28-2009, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
Couldn't Princess Marina use the Princess title simply because she was a princess in her own right?
Yes, as acknowledged by The Sovereign. But Marina ceased to use the style of Princess upon marriage and used "HRH The Duchess of Kent" instead. As is always the case, she took her style and title from her husband, rather than in her own right ("HRH The Princess George"), even though she was born a princess in Greece.

The same thing occurred with HRH The Princess Beatrice. When she married HSH Prince Henry of Battenberg, she took the style of "HRH Princess Henry of Battenberg", even though as the daughter of Queen Victoria, her own title and style was superior to her husband's. When Henry died, she continued to use her husband's style until 1917, at which time she relinquished the use of the Battenberg name and assumed her own style again as "HRH The Princess Beatrice".
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  #258  
Old 11-28-2009, 04:21 PM
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Ooooh Branchg you are so good at explaining things succinctly!

That all makes sense now....thank you for tidying up the point about Marina and the 'Princess George' bit so neatly!
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  #259  
Old 11-28-2009, 06:31 PM
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Marina, like most wives even today, assumed the style and title of her husband but she never ceased to be HRH Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark meaning that when she resumed using HRH Princess Marina she was simply returning to her maiden name and didn't need the Queen's permission to style herself HRH Princess Marina (so long as she didn't add of the UK as she wasn't entitled to the 'of UK' as she was 'of Greece and Denmark) but Alice of Gloucester was never an HRH Princess in her own right from birth so did need permission to style herself HRH Princess Alice of anything.

On marriage both ladies became HRH Princess Henry/Edward.

I wonder what the Queen would have done had Marina not been an HRH in her own right - would she have allowed either or only one of these ladies to refer to themselves as HRH Princess Alice/Marina?
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  #260  
Old 11-29-2009, 02:27 AM
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It's not an issue that is likely to crop up too often nowdays.
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