Royal Dukes, Royal Duchies and Royal Ducal Titles

[MAfan]

Yes, it makes sense; thank you both Connie and Stefan!

[Vecchiolarry]

Hi,

Very interesting postings on this subject and I've learned a lot from all of you...

My simple input into it is this:
I believe The Queen thought that Alice earned her right to be called Princess Alice.
She was an exemplary member of the Royal Family and universally loved by the public. She had done her part in bolstering the monarchy after the abdication and in supporting her husband's family through 3 reigns. And, provided 2 heirs in the line of succession (although farther down that line!!)...
So, if she meekly asked for a preferred title, then The Queen simply granted a beloved auntie her request, as was/is her right. And, everybody was happy - and that's all that counts....

Larry

[MAfan]

Under some aspects I agree with you, Larry; there is only one person who can decide to allow someone to use a title instead of another one, and this person is the Queen: if she agreed to allow Alice to use the title of Princess suo iure, as well she did with Princess Marina, I can't see which is the problem.

[Mermaid1962]

Couldn't Princess Marina use the Princess title simply because she was a princess in her own right?

Originally Posted by MAfan

Under some aspects I agree with you, Larry; there is only one person who can decide to allow someone to use a title instead of another one, and this person is the Queen: if she agreed to allow Alice to use the title of Princess suo iure, as well she did with Princess Marina, I can't see which is the problem.

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by MAfan

Why didn't Prince William of Gloucester and after his death Prince Richard use the courtesy title of Earl of Ulster?

One way to help is to ask what title would James be using if he was known as HRH Prince James. He wouldn't then be known as Viscount Severn but Prince James. James is now in the same position as William and later Richard was when they were the heirs to their father's title but his parents have requested that he not use the HRH Prince James but rather the subsidiary title.

[Connie Cutmantle]

Originally Posted by Mermaid1962

Couldn't Princess Marina use the Princess title simply because she was a princess in her own right?

I tend to agree with you Mermaid1962 that Marina was quite within her rights to use her 'maiden' title in conjunction with her title as Duchess of Kent....I had no idea that it is believed that she renounced her Greek/Danish titles upon marriage to George Kent! I was always under the impression that Marina remained Princess of Greece and Denmark from birth to death and that she started using the Princess Marina style again 'by right' rather than by courtesy of the sovereign as Alice did!

[Mermaid1962]

I've just done some "Googling", and I can't find a reference to Princess Marina renouncing her titles. I believe that she was still being referred to as "Princess Marina" at the time of her engagement and wedding to the Duke of Kent.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by cmkrcwi

Lady Alice Montagu Douglas Scott was never "The Princess Henry" because by the time she and the late prince were married, he was officially titled "HRH The Duke of Gloucester". Thus, she became "HRH The Duchess of Gloucester". A royal wife (that is, a woman who marries into royalty) takes her husband's official titles. She does not take her husband's names unless they are part of his official title.

As an example, when the current Duchess of Gloucester married her husband, he was officially titled "HRH Prince Richard of Gloucester," so she was officially "Princess Richard of Gloucester". After he succeeded to the title of "HRH The Duke of Gloucester" she ceased to be "Princess Richard" and became "The Duchess of Gloucester".

They are both. Once created a Peer, their wives take their style after their Peerage but with the rank of a Princess of the UK as HRH.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Mermaid1962

Couldn't Princess Marina use the Princess title simply because she was a princess in her own right?

Yes, as acknowledged by The Sovereign. But Marina ceased to use the style of Princess upon marriage and used "HRH The Duchess of Kent" instead. As is always the case, she took her style and title from her husband, rather than in her own right ("HRH The Princess George"), even though she was born a princess in Greece.

The same thing occurred with HRH The Princess Beatrice. When she married HSH Prince Henry of Battenberg, she took the style of "HRH Princess Henry of Battenberg", even though as the daughter of Queen Victoria, her own title and style was superior to her husband's. When Henry died, she continued to use her husband's style until 1917, at which time she relinquished the use of the Battenberg name and assumed her own style again as "HRH The Princess Beatrice".

[Connie Cutmantle]

Ooooh Branchg you are so good at explaining things succinctly!

That all makes sense now....thank you for tidying up the point about Marina and the 'Princess George' bit so neatly!

[Iluvbertie]

Marina, like most wives even today, assumed the style and title of her husband but she never ceased to be HRH Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark meaning that when she resumed using HRH Princess Marina she was simply returning to her maiden name and didn't need the Queen's permission to style herself HRH Princess Marina (so long as she didn't add of the UK as she wasn't entitled to the 'of UK' as she was 'of Greece and Denmark) but Alice of Gloucester was never an HRH Princess in her own right from birth so did need permission to style herself HRH Princess Alice of anything.

On marriage both ladies became HRH Princess Henry/Edward.

I wonder what the Queen would have done had Marina not been an HRH in her own right - would she have allowed either or only one of these ladies to refer to themselves as HRH Princess Alice/Marina?

[fearghas]

It's not an issue that is likely to crop up too often nowdays.

[cmkrcwi]

Branchg keeps repeating a falsehood though. Princess Marina did not become "The Princess George" upon marriage. She became HRH The Duchess of Kent because that was her husband's official style and title. A woman marrying into the British royal family takes her husband's official title(s). If Princess Marina had married The Duke of Kent before he was given that title, she would indeed have been HRH Princess George because that HRH The Prince George would have been his official title.

Similarly the late Princess Alice of Gloucester was never Princess Henry because her husband's official title by the time of their marriage was HRH The Duke of Gloucester.

[wbenson]

Princes continue to be "The Prince Forename" when they are elevated to the peerage. For an example of this, see this order in council, where the Duke of York, one of two counsellors of state giving approval to the order, is referred to as "His Royal Highness The Prince Andrew, Duke of York." Accordingly, his wife at the time was "Her Royal Highness The Princess Andrew, Duchess of York" (and Countess of Inverness and Baroness Killyleagh).

[Connie Cutmantle]

Thank you Wbenson......now that is sorted! I thought I was going doo-lally and had misread or misunderstood Dickie Arbiter and Lord St John et al. when they were being prickly about Diana......I always believed that the same rule applied to other British Royal brides.....even the Queen Mother would have technically been HRH The Princess Albert, Duchess of York upon marriage..... as well as being 'generally' known simply as HRH the Duchess of York I assume? A Dukedom comes after a Princely title in the order of Precedence in England, although by custom the Prince forename bit tends to be dropped and replaced by the shorter 'HRH the Duke of...' it does not mean that the 'Prince forename' adage is completely dropped all together or that it may no longer be used! It is just a custom! People still refer to the HRH The Duke of York simply as HRH The Prince Andrew or even HRH Prince Andrew even now! The latter may be incorrect but the former is acceptable even if it is not absolutely correct....he should really be known as HRH The Prince Andrew, Duke of York if we are going to be pedantic and 'uber' correct about it! With regards to the incumbent Dukes of Gloucester and Kent the 'The' is dropped before their Princely titles!

I tend to recall that in Britain, a Princely title takes precedence before a Dukedom! (Prince Michael of Kent takes precedence as an HRH before all non royal Royal Dukes of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.) The Princely title is generally contracted in general terms to 'HRH' the Duke of .... or HRH the Duchess of ....... rather than eg:- HRH The Prince Andrew, Duke of York who is generally known as HRH the Duke of York....it is shorter and simpler.....but all royal Dukes officially retain and may use officially their princely titles in conjunction with Ducal titles as do/may their wives 'technically' and by right! The only time I think this has been changed was when Wallis was forbidden the right to become an HRH and therefore HRH (The) Princess Edward, Duchess of Windsor or as happens by custom simply HRH the Duchess of Windsor, but instead had to make do with the style and precedence as Her Grace the Duchess of Windsor, which technically made her the last Duchess in the order of precedence in the British Isles after Caroline, Duchess of Fife and the Dowager and incumbent Duchesses of Westminster during her lifetime! It proved to be a very crafty and clever way to get back at Edward VIII as his wife subsequently had to give precedence to so many other Duchesses - Royal or otherwise!

[Iluvbertie]

I have been wondering something.

I am sure that you are aware that descendents of George II have to seek permission from the monarch to contract a legal marriage (assuming that the Farran exemption isn't correct and as it hasn't been challenged I don't want to get into that argument) so my query is this? When did Edward VIII, as The Duke of Windsor, seek permission from George VI to marry? I have tried to google this but can't find any reference to an order being given in council so my next query is - if The Duke of Windsor didn't get George VI's permission to marry - was he actually legally married to Wallis?

[Lumutqueen]

Possible the fact that Edward knew what the answer was, and didn't bother to ask. He must have stated that he wanted to marry her, he was given the option marry her or keep the throne. He chose to renounce his throne and marry her.

If he renounced the throne, does that still mean he has to ask permission?

The Duke of Windsor married Mrs. Simpson, who had changed her name by deed poll to Wallis Warfield, in a private ceremony on 3 June 1937, at Château de Candé, near Tours, France. When the Church of England refused to sanction the union, a County Durham clergyman, the Reverend Robert Anderson Jardine (Vicar of St Paul's, Darlington), offered to perform the ceremony, and the Duke accepted.

Because they married in france does have a difference?

[MAfan]

If they need only the permission of the Sovereign, it is possible that the then King Edward VIII had allowed himself to marry Wallis.

[branchg]

The Duke of Windsor was exempt from the Royal Marriages Act when the Act of Abdication became law. Obviously, a King relinquishing the throne to marry a woman opposed by the Government as suitable to become Queen Consort would be allowed to marry her after formally giving up his position as The Sovereign due to such opposition.

However, as we all know, he still paid the price when George VI issued letters patent in 1937 stating the Duke would remain HRH, but it was explicitly denied to his wife and any children. The reasoning here being The Duke renounced the throne on behalf of himself and any future descendants due to his marriage, therefore, it followed the wife and children would not hold royal rank, being limited to the Peerage.

[Zonk]

Well since we are talking about the Duke of Windsor, without getting into reflections on the characteristics of the Duke and Duchess, do you think that by denying the Duchess the HRH was legal. I am asking from a legal standpoint, not a personal (i.e. it was a personal vendetta, etc.).

Wasn't she technically a HRH?

And why was the Duke exempt from the Marriages Act?