Royal Dukes, Royal Duchies and Royal Ducal Titles

[Zonk]

Yes, Princess Alice requested permission from the Queen to style herelf Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester after the death of her husband The Duke of Gloucester to differentiate herself from the new Duchess.

She followed the precedent sent by Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent after her son, The Duke of Kent married Katharine Worsley and she became The Duchess of Kent. But I would think it would be a little different since Marina was actually a Princess of the Royal Blood.

But either way, permission was asked and received.

[Iluvbertie]

The situation with Marina was different as she had been born Princess Marina whereas Alice was born Lady Alice (or was that the Honourable ...) so Marina simply asked to revert to her birth name whereas Alice asked to use a name that had never actually been hers. The situations aren't actually the same as Alice asked really for a promotion.

[Lumutqueen]

She was born
The Lady Alice Christabel Montagu Douglas Scott.
She was allowed to keep her title as a british princess as a favour from the queen. The cases are similar in ways.

[Iluvbertie]

Similar maybe but one was only reverting to her maiden name and thus was using a name that she had always had in the same way that any other woman is always able to use her maiden status but the other was asking to use a title she had never held before in her life either before or after her marriage so she was promoted.

[Connie Cutmantle]

This is a tricky situation to discuss and may sound like a matter of semantics...but a commoner or Hon. who marries into the a higher titled family is never entitled to use her own Christian/given name in conjunction with her husband's title e.g :- Lady Randolph Churchill was never formally known as Lady Jennie Churchill....the examples are too manifold to give here. But if a woman of the rank of Lady (e.g the daughter of an Earl, Marquess or Duke marries a man of equal rank she is entitled to use her own given name and her husband's surname in conjunction with her birthright title). The same principle applies to women who marry Princes of equal or unequal rank to themselves.

Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester never had the 'right' to call herself as such until after 1975 or 1976, where after she only used the title by 'courtesy' strictly speaking, I am afraid I can not remember precisely the year the Royal decree/letters warrant were issued, anyway.... she was technically and officially for the sake of debate in fact HRH Princess Henry, Duchess of Gloucester from the moment she married until the day she died....the change to Princess Alice's style only came about because she apparently loathed being known as HRH the 'Dowager' Duchess of Gloucester officially and in general terms, and preferred to find an alternative! The reason she had to find and alternative form of style and address was because her daughter in law became HRH the Duchess of Gloucester when Henry died in 1974....to have two HRH Duchesses of Gloucester would have lead to great confusion thus the use of Dowager to differentiate the widowed from the extant wife of the in situ Duke became an essential necessity! God this sounds complicated but it does I hope make sense?

However, this rule of thumb and tradition does applies across the spectrum... all living widows of deceased title holders are differentiated in style from the de facto wife of the living title holder as well as one another! At one stage, there were four widows(including an ex-wife) of Dukes of Marlborough and a wife of the incumbent Duke alive at the same time....the 'Dowager' adage was used by one and the rest used their Christians names followed by their dead/former husbands' title....hence Jane, Duchess of Marlborough,Frances Duchess of Marlborough, Bertha Duchess of Marlborough (officially she chose to be know as Bertha, Marchioness of Blandford), Lillian, Duchess of Marlborough (she was the de facto Dowager Duchess) and the Duchess of Marlborough (Consuelo), her name was never used formally as she was 'the' Duchess! Anyway... this is just an example of how complicated titles and styles may appear.........going back to Alice and.......

Princess Marina having been born an HRH had a choice and could have adopted her husband's title and name becoming HRH Princess George, Duchhess of Kent (just like Chelsy Jones from down the road marry Harry Smith and becoming Mrs Harry Smith) but because Marina was a Princess by birth, she was entitled to use her christian name in conjunction with her own title by 'right' and her husband's titles as she pleased. Generally women do or at least did until quite recently adopt their husband's name in full..being known say,as an example as Mrs Harry Smith and in the event of her becoming a widow she would then become known as Mrs Chelsy Smith! Until the Duke of Kent's death I believe Marina chose to be be known officially simply as HRH the Duchess of Kent and that she continued to be known as such until her elder son married Katharine Worsley (who at the moment of her marriage became HRH Princess Edward, Duchess of Kent known generally as HRH the Duchess of Kent)... thereafter Marina became known officially as HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent to differentiate.....even though she had always been a de facto Princess Marina regardless of this fact.

With regards to Alice Gloucester......she was never known as or by the style rightfully or officially of Princess Alice until she and the Queen agreed to it as a 'courtesy', before then, she was always officially HRH Princess Henry, Duchess of Gloucester and generally known as HRH the Duchess of Gloucester, HRH the Dowager Duchess of Gloucester or 'unofficially and incorrectly) HRH Princess Alice, Dichess of Gloucester.

I guess that this confusion ultimately stems from everyone calling Diana - Princess Diana - a title which was neither officially correct or appropriate technically!

Goodness I hope this makes some semblance of sense!?!?!

[cmkrcwi]

But Marina's husband's title was never Prince George, Duke of Kent. It was HRH The Duke of Kent. After his untimely passing, it would have been incorrect for her to be styled HRH Princess George, Duchess of Kent. She could have been HRH Marina, Duchess of Kent or HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent.

[Hereditary Thane]

Connie Cutmantle, and cmkrcwi, thank you for your exposition. I think however that we are forgetting that customs change and general usage is nearly always different from strict court protocol. In these matters the sovereign has the power to show her charity or lack of it.

It isn't the nobility which have to conform to these conventions, as you say if Jane Smith marries John Brown she is Mrs John Brown, and continues to be so as his relict. Should they be divorced she is Mrs Jane Brown. The wife of a knight is in reality a dame (as is the wife of a baronet, not a baronetess) and was up until the late 18th century an old fashioned address for gentlewomen of some age. Knights and baronets are great commoners not noblemen. Some peers do hold knighthoods and baronetcies.

Lady, in respect to daughters of the high nobility (earls and upwards) is a mere social convention, and the style The Lady in regards to daughters of dukes seems to have been an affectation of ducal families. The appellation, Honourable is not a title either. We shouldn't be too pedantic about these things, but they are worth observing if only to prevent offense or embarrassment. But to remove the style HRH from the mother of your grandchildren shows more regard for deranged courtiers than the real world.

Princess Alice, Duchess Dowager of Glouscter served the crown well, and as I understand it was not the duchess dowager's petition: it was suggested to her as an acknowledgement of her services. In the same manner as Princess Alexandra was made DGCVO and lady of the Garter.

I recall being at a reception (obviously not in England) when a somewhat flustered American lady was presented to an ex monarch. She muttered something about not knowing how to address him. "Oh call me *****" (his Christian name) was the regal response. Good for him!

[Connie Cutmantle]

Thak you Thane for your explanation of Princess Alice's stance on the issue of 'Dowager'....I had always wandered about the veracity of that!!!!!

[claypoint2]

Connie Cutmantle, thank you for your comments, which I believe are crystal clear. I would offer only a slight correction to the above. As a matter of formal usage (which is less and less common these days), when the husband of Mrs Harry Smith dies, she remains Mrs Harry Smith until she dies or remarries. Her name would become Mrs Chelsy Smith only if she divorced him. More correctly, she would be called Mrs Chelsy Jones Smith in that case.

[Connie Cutmantle]

Thank you Claypoint 2! I apologise regarding the point about widows.....I based this on the widows I have known who have chosen to use their own fist names.....sorry to have misled anyone into thinking this was a 'cast in iron' tradition!

[branchg]

With marriage to a Prince of the UK, Lady Alice Montagu-Douglas-Scott became HRH The Princess Henry, Duchess of Gloucester. With her husband's death, she remained a princess of the UK by marriage and was permitted by The Queen to use the courtesy style of HRH Princess Alice as the widow of a son of The Sovereign.

Marina was born HRH Princess Marina of Greece & Denmark, a style she relinquished with her marriage to HRH The Prince George, Duke of Kent. With her husband's death, she was allowed the style of HRH Princess Marina in the same manner as Alice later was, even though she was born a princess, it was not recognized in the UK. She was HRH The Princess George, Duchess of Kent with her marriage.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by cmkrcwi

But Marina's husband's title was never Prince George, Duke of Kent. It was HRH The Duke of Kent. After his untimely passing, it would have been incorrect for her to be styled HRH Princess George, Duchess of Kent. She could have been HRH Marina, Duchess of Kent or HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent.

She was and remained "HRH The Princess George" as the wife of a son of The Sovereign for life. She retained her ducal style as "HRH The Duchess of Kent" until her son married, at which point she would be "HRH The Dowager Duchess of Kent" as a widow. With marriage, she was HRH Marina, Duchess of Kent (or HRH Marina, Dowager Duchess of Kent as a widow).

The Queen allowed her to style herself HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent, as she did later for Alice, to acknowledge their service and position as the widows of sons of The Sovereign.

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by branchg

Marina was born HRH Princess Marina of Greece & Denmark, a style she relinquished with her marriage..

When did she 'reliquish' her Greek and Danish titles?
I have never heard or read that before so I would like to see the document she signed relinguishing those titles.

If she didn't sign a document then she always was HRH Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark although she didn't use those titles in the UK. Why they wouldn't recognise them I don't know.

I remember the comment from Edward VII about Queen Salome, I think, when someone commented about why that person was at his coronation and the way they were being treated and the comment was something along the lines of... - either she is a Queen and should be treated as one or she is a savage and shouldn't be here - and the same thing should have applied to Marina - she was born a Princess to a recognised royal family, even if deposed at times during the 1930s, but still recognised as one and she never ceased to be a princess of said royal house just because she married into another one.

[Connie Cutmantle]

I have to honest that I thought that Marina was never obliged to renounce her titles and style as a Princess of Greece and Denmark.....only Prince Philip seems to have had to do this as otherwise Charles, Anne, Andrew and Edward would have been Princes and Princess of Greece and Denmark in addition to Princes and Princess of the United Kingdom blah blah! Such a situation could have proved most untidy and with hindsight problematic diplomatically! (Sorry for the frightfull English but it makes sense to me!!!!)

With regards to Marina I believe she was Princess of Greece and Denmark from cradle to grave!

[Iluvbertie]

Somewhere in the depths of my mind I have seen a list of the line of succession to the Danish throne from about 1950, I think amongst some of my mother's royal stuff that she was given when working for the British High Commissioner in Canberra, that named both Philip and Charles as being in line to that throne. That was before the referendum that allowed female inheritance and restricted the line to those descended from a later generation than Philip and Charles.

I also remember Mum getting very hot under the collar when people would say that Philip renounced his claims to those thrones as she was adament that the British High Commissioner's attitude, while she was working there in 1947 - 1950 was that he renouced his use of the titles but not his rights to the thrones.

Just as Philip is in line to the British throne in his own right he was in line to both the Greek and Danish thrones.

[cmkrcwi]

Lady Alice Montagu Douglas Scott was never "The Princess Henry" because by the time she and the late prince were married, he was officially titled "HRH The Duke of Gloucester". Thus, she became "HRH The Duchess of Gloucester". A royal wife (that is, a woman who marries into royalty) takes her husband's official titles. She does not take her husband's names unless they are part of his official title.

As an example, when the current Duchess of Gloucester married her husband, he was officially titled "HRH Prince Richard of Gloucester," so she was officially "Princess Richard of Gloucester". After he succeeded to the title of "HRH The Duke of Gloucester" she ceased to be "Princess Richard" and became "The Duchess of Gloucester".

[MAfan]

Why didn't Prince William of Gloucester and after his death Prince Richard use the courtesy title of Earl of Ulster?

[Connie Cutmantle]

Iluvbertie....what a gem you have provided us with re:Prince Philip's position! I had always wandered about his position after he became plain Mr Philip Mountbatten. I thought that as he became a British subject his rights to the Danish and Greek thrones became void with his renouncement of his titles! Although perhaps the issue was discretionary and his position within the lines of succession to those thrones was decided by King Frederick IX and King Paul! Food for thought!!!!

As to the use of a husband's title eg. Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester.....I believe that Dickie Arbiter used to get very irritated when people referred to Diana as Princess Diana....he stated on occasion as did Lord St John of Fawsley that Diana was and should have been known as HRH the Princess of Wales or if not at least as HRH The Princess Charles and should never ever have been addressed or known by the style and name of Princess Diana. I believe the same custom would have applied to Alice Gloucester and can also be applied to the present Duchesses of Gloucester and Kent minus the 'The'!

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by MAfan

Why didn't Prince William of Gloucester and after his death Prince Richard use the courtesy title of Earl of Ulster?

Because they where Princes. As this is a higher title they are known by it and not a courtesy title.

[Connie Cutmantle]

Ooops sorry to repeat you Stefan I was a bit slow off the mark!

The title of Prince of the Blood is of higher status than that of a courtesy title! Prince Arthur of Connaught used his higher title rather than be known as HRH the Earl of Sussex. Only non HRH heirs use their father's secondary title! I hope this makes sense!