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  #221  
Old 09-19-2009, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
She only holds it as a style, "Her Majesty the Queen, Duke of Lancaster", while in the duchy on official business. As Sovereign, she cannot retain a peerage because she is the fount of honour and source of all enoblement.
the queen does not hold the peerage of Duke of Lancaster. a medieval King (cannot remember which) had a son who was Earl of Lancaster (peerage) he made his lands into the County Palatinate of Lancaster which is almost like a seperate country. the Earl (later made Duke) could appoint officials and collect the monies from people who die intestate. The Title "Duke of Lancaster" is to signify this position. She is Duke because she holds a masculine position (at coronations female holders of peerages wear the robes of a peeress but the coronet of a peer)
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  #222  
Old 11-15-2009, 02:24 AM
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Almost all dukes have secondary titles that they can give to their son or grandson as a courtesy title. It has always seemed strange to me that the son of the Prince of Wales does not have a courtesy title.
Should William marry before his grandmother dies it is presumed that William will receive a dukedome. As far as I can see, the only real reason to give him a title is so that his wife will have a proper title. Without a title her title would be HRH Princess William. The title of Duke of Clarence has a double precedent. It was the title given to Eddy, the oldest son of Edward VII (who was POW at the time). It is also the title that the last King William had before he became king. It is also the name of the house that he will eventually live in.
It seems that a simpler solution would be to change the standard for the style of a married woman. Assuming that William's wife is named Katherine, then she could go by HRH Princess Katherine until she become HRH Katherine, Princess of Wales. This would alleviate problems of her using the title of Duchess of Clarence possibly for 10 to 15 years before she changes her title.
I know these traditions go back centuries, but it is not totally without precedent. Princess Alice used that title for about 30 years after she was widowed, even though her proper title was Dowager Duchess of Gloucester.It seems to me that all sorts of changes are being considered, like absolute primogeniture, and the possibility of daughters inheriting peerages. It would seem like changing the style of wives is relatively minor one.
It would also take care of the problem of Harry. His wife would just be known as HRH Princess firstname. Then Harry could become the Duke of Gloucester or the Duke of York . Although it seems as if the Duke of Gloucester would be more appropriate since his great uncle will probably die first. That way the Duke of York title could be given to William's second son.
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  #223  
Old 11-15-2009, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by pacomartin View Post
It would also take care of the problem of Harry. His wife would just be known as HRH Princess firstname. Then Harry could become the Duke of Gloucester or the Duke of York . Although it seems as if the Duke of Gloucester would be more appropriate since his great uncle will probably die first. That way the Duke of York title could be given to William's second son.
Pacomartin I think you have made an excellent point about moving the goal posts so to speak with regards to a prospective wife of William or Harry being permitted to use their own christian name in conjunction with their style and and title as Princesses! But, unless some catastrophe occurs and the Earl and Ulster and his son Lord Culloden die in Harry's lifetime without any other male heirs, the Dukedom of Gloucester will perpetuate for the foreseeable future for at least another two generations, thus it can not and will not be re-created for Harry unless the Dukedom reverts to the crown....which at the moment seems highly unlikely....touch wood!

Thank you for your very interesting comments, as they have provided more food for thought and this issue of titles for William and Harry seems to be one that runs and runs!!!!
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  #224  
Old 11-15-2009, 02:47 AM
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There are two heirs to the Dukedom of Gloucester, so that title probably won't be free for quite some time.

Edit:
See what happens when I forget to hit submit?
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  #225  
Old 11-15-2009, 09:16 PM
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She would not become HRH Katherine, Princess of Wales. She would become HRH The Princess of Wales.
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  #226  
Old 11-16-2009, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by cmkrcwi View Post
She would not become HRH Katherine, Princess of Wales. She would become HRH The Princess of Wales.
I always thought that she would become HRH Princess William of Wales, until he inherits the title himself.
Then she would be HRH The Princess of Wales, like Diana was.
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  #227  
Old 11-16-2009, 06:39 AM
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That is correct. On marriage William's wife will be HRH Princess William of Wales unless the Queen gives him a title at marriage e.g. Duke of xxxx in which case she would be known as HRH The Duchess of xxxx.

When Charles becomes King, William will automatically become HRH The Duke of Cornwall and thus his wife would be known as HRH The Duchess of Cornwall and xxxxx (as per the precedent of Queen Mary from Jan - Nov 1901 when she was the Duchess of Cornwall and York). Only when and if Charles creates William Prince of Wales would any wife become Princess of Wales.

Kate, or whomever, would never be correctly entitled to be called Princess Katherine as that indicates a Princess born with that title not one who married into the royal family (the Queen allowed her aunt to use Princess Alice of Gloucester rather than Dowager Duchess but that was an exception and not the normal procedure).
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  #228  
Old 11-16-2009, 02:16 PM
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Thank you very much for confirming my thoughts. Wasn't Princess Alice allowed to stay that way so she wouldn't be confused with the present Duchess of Gloucster.
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  #229  
Old 11-16-2009, 02:18 PM
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Yes, Princess Alice requested permission from the Queen to style herelf Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester after the death of her husband The Duke of Gloucester to differentiate herself from the new Duchess.

She followed the precedent sent by Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent after her son, The Duke of Kent married Katharine Worsley and she became The Duchess of Kent. But I would think it would be a little different since Marina was actually a Princess of the Royal Blood.

But either way, permission was asked and received.
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  #230  
Old 11-16-2009, 04:16 PM
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The situation with Marina was different as she had been born Princess Marina whereas Alice was born Lady Alice (or was that the Honourable ...) so Marina simply asked to revert to her birth name whereas Alice asked to use a name that had never actually been hers. The situations aren't actually the same as Alice asked really for a promotion.
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  #231  
Old 11-16-2009, 04:48 PM
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She was born
The Lady Alice Christabel Montagu Douglas Scott.
She was allowed to keep her title as a british princess as a favour from the queen. The cases are similar in ways.
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  #232  
Old 11-17-2009, 06:33 AM
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Similar maybe but one was only reverting to her maiden name and thus was using a name that she had always had in the same way that any other woman is always able to use her maiden status but the other was asking to use a title she had never held before in her life either before or after her marriage so she was promoted.
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  #233  
Old 11-17-2009, 07:18 AM
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This is a tricky situation to discuss and may sound like a matter of semantics...but a commoner or Hon. who marries into the a higher titled family is never entitled to use her own Christian/given name in conjunction with her husband's title e.g :- Lady Randolph Churchill was never formally known as Lady Jennie Churchill....the examples are too manifold to give here. But if a woman of the rank of Lady (e.g the daughter of an Earl, Marquess or Duke marries a man of equal rank she is entitled to use her own given name and her husband's surname in conjunction with her birthright title). The same principle applies to women who marry Princes of equal or unequal rank to themselves.

Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester never had the 'right' to call herself as such until after 1975 or 1976, where after she only used the title by 'courtesy' strictly speaking, I am afraid I can not remember precisely the year the Royal decree/letters warrant were issued, anyway.... she was technically and officially for the sake of debate in fact HRH Princess Henry, Duchess of Gloucester from the moment she married until the day she died....the change to Princess Alice's style only came about because she apparently loathed being known as HRH the 'Dowager' Duchess of Gloucester officially and in general terms, and preferred to find an alternative! The reason she had to find and alternative form of style and address was because her daughter in law became HRH the Duchess of Gloucester when Henry died in 1974....to have two HRH Duchesses of Gloucester would have lead to great confusion thus the use of Dowager to differentiate the widowed from the extant wife of the in situ Duke became an essential necessity! God this sounds complicated but it does I hope make sense?

However, this rule of thumb and tradition does applies across the spectrum... all living widows of deceased title holders are differentiated in style from the de facto wife of the living title holder as well as one another! At one stage, there were four widows(including an ex-wife) of Dukes of Marlborough and a wife of the incumbent Duke alive at the same time....the 'Dowager' adage was used by one and the rest used their Christians names followed by their dead/former husbands' title....hence Jane, Duchess of Marlborough,Frances Duchess of Marlborough, Bertha Duchess of Marlborough (officially she chose to be know as Bertha, Marchioness of Blandford), Lillian, Duchess of Marlborough (she was the de facto Dowager Duchess) and the Duchess of Marlborough (Consuelo), her name was never used formally as she was 'the' Duchess! Anyway... this is just an example of how complicated titles and styles may appear.........going back to Alice and.......

Princess Marina having been born an HRH had a choice and could have adopted her husband's title and name becoming HRH Princess George, Duchhess of Kent (just like Chelsy Jones from down the road marry Harry Smith and becoming Mrs Harry Smith) but because Marina was a Princess by birth, she was entitled to use her christian name in conjunction with her own title by 'right' and her husband's titles as she pleased. Generally women do or at least did until quite recently adopt their husband's name in full..being known say,as an example as Mrs Harry Smith and in the event of her becoming a widow she would then become known as Mrs Chelsy Smith! Until the Duke of Kent's death I believe Marina chose to be be known officially simply as HRH the Duchess of Kent and that she continued to be known as such until her elder son married Katharine Worsley (who at the moment of her marriage became HRH Princess Edward, Duchess of Kent known generally as HRH the Duchess of Kent)... thereafter Marina became known officially as HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent to differentiate.....even though she had always been a de facto Princess Marina regardless of this fact.

With regards to Alice Gloucester......she was never known as or by the style rightfully or officially of Princess Alice until she and the Queen agreed to it as a 'courtesy', before then, she was always officially HRH Princess Henry, Duchess of Gloucester and generally known as HRH the Duchess of Gloucester, HRH the Dowager Duchess of Gloucester or 'unofficially and incorrectly) HRH Princess Alice, Dichess of Gloucester.

I guess that this confusion ultimately stems from everyone calling Diana - Princess Diana - a title which was neither officially correct or appropriate technically!

Goodness I hope this makes some semblance of sense!?!?!
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  #234  
Old 11-17-2009, 05:22 PM
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But Marina's husband's title was never Prince George, Duke of Kent. It was HRH The Duke of Kent. After his untimely passing, it would have been incorrect for her to be styled HRH Princess George, Duchess of Kent. She could have been HRH Marina, Duchess of Kent or HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent.
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  #235  
Old 11-17-2009, 09:37 PM
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Connie Cutmantle, and cmkrcwi, thank you for your exposition. I think however that we are forgetting that customs change and general usage is nearly always different from strict court protocol. In these matters the sovereign has the power to show her charity or lack of it.

It isn't the nobility which have to conform to these conventions, as you say if Jane Smith marries John Brown she is Mrs John Brown, and continues to be so as his relict. Should they be divorced she is Mrs Jane Brown. The wife of a knight is in reality a dame (as is the wife of a baronet, not a baronetess) and was up until the late 18th century an old fashioned address for gentlewomen of some age. Knights and baronets are great commoners not noblemen. Some peers do hold knighthoods and baronetcies.

Lady, in respect to daughters of the high nobility (earls and upwards) is a mere social convention, and the style The Lady in regards to daughters of dukes seems to have been an affectation of ducal families. The appellation, Honourable is not a title either. We shouldn't be too pedantic about these things, but they are worth observing if only to prevent offense or embarrassment. But to remove the style HRH from the mother of your grandchildren shows more regard for deranged courtiers than the real world.

Princess Alice, Duchess Dowager of Glouscter served the crown well, and as I understand it was not the duchess dowager's petition: it was suggested to her as an acknowledgement of her services. In the same manner as Princess Alexandra was made DGCVO and lady of the Garter.

I recall being at a reception (obviously not in England) when a somewhat flustered American lady was presented to an ex monarch. She muttered something about not knowing how to address him. "Oh call me *****" (his Christian name) was the regal response. Good for him!
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  #236  
Old 11-17-2009, 09:58 PM
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Thak you Thane for your explanation of Princess Alice's stance on the issue of 'Dowager'....I had always wandered about the veracity of that!!!!!
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  #237  
Old 11-17-2009, 11:41 PM
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Connie Cutmantle, thank you for your comments, which I believe are crystal clear. I would offer only a slight correction to the above. As a matter of formal usage (which is less and less common these days), when the husband of Mrs Harry Smith dies, she remains Mrs Harry Smith until she dies or remarries. Her name would become Mrs Chelsy Smith only if she divorced him. More correctly, she would be called Mrs Chelsy Jones Smith in that case.
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  #238  
Old 11-18-2009, 12:32 AM
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Thank you Claypoint 2! I apologise regarding the point about widows.....I based this on the widows I have known who have chosen to use their own fist names.....sorry to have misled anyone into thinking this was a 'cast in iron' tradition!
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  #239  
Old 11-26-2009, 09:27 PM
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With marriage to a Prince of the UK, Lady Alice Montagu-Douglas-Scott became HRH The Princess Henry, Duchess of Gloucester. With her husband's death, she remained a princess of the UK by marriage and was permitted by The Queen to use the courtesy style of HRH Princess Alice as the widow of a son of The Sovereign.

Marina was born HRH Princess Marina of Greece & Denmark, a style she relinquished with her marriage to HRH The Prince George, Duke of Kent. With her husband's death, she was allowed the style of HRH Princess Marina in the same manner as Alice later was, even though she was born a princess, it was not recognized in the UK. She was HRH The Princess George, Duchess of Kent with her marriage.
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  #240  
Old 11-26-2009, 09:42 PM
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But Marina's husband's title was never Prince George, Duke of Kent. It was HRH The Duke of Kent. After his untimely passing, it would have been incorrect for her to be styled HRH Princess George, Duchess of Kent. She could have been HRH Marina, Duchess of Kent or HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent.
She was and remained "HRH The Princess George" as the wife of a son of The Sovereign for life. She retained her ducal style as "HRH The Duchess of Kent" until her son married, at which point she would be "HRH The Dowager Duchess of Kent" as a widow. With marriage, she was HRH Marina, Duchess of Kent (or HRH Marina, Dowager Duchess of Kent as a widow).

The Queen allowed her to style herself HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent, as she did later for Alice, to acknowledge their service and position as the widows of sons of The Sovereign.
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