The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > British Royals

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #1341  
Old 06-15-2016, 05:48 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Posts: 1,277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
Hmmm it's never clear to me how it all works....Mary is a CP while Kate is only a Duchess...although since William is there she would default to his rank, IIRC....but even so...while he's a prince he's not the heir yet so wouldn't Mary and her husband outrank them since Crown Prince seems to indicate a higher rank than prince?

LaRae

But both of them are Royal Highnesses, none of them is a "Majesty" - so Mary will only outrank Catherine when she became Queen of Denmark when it comes to curties. Royal Highnesses, normally, do not curtsey each other (yes, we´ve seen exceptions to the rule. But these have been performed just because of personal preference, not for reasons of royal protocol).
When it comes to seatings, walking in a procession etc. heirs to the throne certainly do outrank other prince/esses.

It´s such a treat for a Royalist that both the D and Dss of Cambridge attend Ascot for the first time while also the CP and CPss of Denmark also turn up! For me, only Haakon and Mette-Marit visiting the races could top that!
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #1342  
Old 06-15-2016, 05:58 PM
HereditaryPrincess's Avatar
Heir Apparent
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Greater London, United Kingdom
Posts: 5,670
It was a wonderful surprise to see Frederik and Mary attend Ascot today, I wasn't expecting them to attend. It was to see the Cambridges there too for the first time, I liked seeing the photos of Catherine and Mary together. It would be nice, I agree, if the Cambridges could become closer to them, perhaps friendships between the Cambridges and other royals could then form as a result. It bothers me when newspapers/magazines compare Mary and Catherine though, their dresses were totally different today for me, I personally see no comparisons.

I also agree that it's possible that Frederik and Mary got an invitation from the Wessexes, since they've been friendly with each other for a while IIRC. However, HM is also friends with Queen Margrethe so it could have been HM herself who asked them to come.

Quote:
Originally Posted by free2rhyme View Post
Harry has been attending for quite a few years now.
Thanks for answering, I thought so but was still a little unsure. I remember seeing a photo of him at Ascot before, but my memory as a little hazy on that, so wanted to confirm.
__________________

__________________
"For beautiful eyes, look for the good in others; for beautiful lips, speak only words of kindness; and for poise, walk with the knowledge that you are never alone". Audrey Hepburn

*
"Think of all the beauty still left around you and be happy". Anne Frank
Reply With Quote
  #1343  
Old 06-15-2016, 06:25 PM
Countessmeout's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: alberta, Canada
Posts: 3,477
Quote:
Curtseying or not curtseying,
Does Prince Charles and Camilla, the equivalent of Crown Prince Frederik and Crown Princess Mary in Denmark, outrank his son and the wife of his son, or not?
Yes. There is an order of precedence. Women's place of precedence changes a bit though if their husband is not present.

1. Sovereign- QEII
2. spouse of sovereign- DOE
3. eldest son of the sovereign- POW
4. younger sons of the sovereign based on birth order so Andrew then Ed
5. grandsons of the queen based on primogeniture
-Will
-Harry
-James
-Peter
6. Brothers of the sovereign (none)
7. Uncles of the sovereign (none)
8. nepehews of the sovereign- Viscount Linley (so he comes after Peter)
9. grandsons of the former sovereign who are Dukes
-Duke of Gloucester
-Duke of Kent
10. grandsons of the former sovereign who don't hold a peerage- Prince Michael
Then you move into the clergy and nobility. The Duke of Norfolk is the highest ranked peerage outside the royal family.

The ladies take their precedence from their husbands. But if the men are not present then:

1. The Queen
2. Princess of Wales/duchess of Cornwall
3. queen's daughters- Princess Anne
4. queen's granddaughters-
-Bea
-Eugenie
-Louise
-Zara
5.daughters of the former sovereign (none)
6. granddaughters of the former sovereign- Princess Alexandra
7.wives of the son of the heir apparent- Kate
8. wives of the younger sons of the sovereign- Sophie

9. wives of the grandsons of the former sovereign (who are duchesses)
-Duchess of Gloucester
-Duchess of kent
10. wives of the grandsons of former sovereign who are not duchesses
-Princess Michael
-Patricia Lascelles

Husband being present makes a huge difference in the case of Kate.


Elizabeth changed it up though. Prior to 2005, Camilla would have taken precedence over all ladies, save for the queen, and Sophie after her. Princesses of the blood do rank in precedence above those married in, when their husbands are not there. But this is in a private.
Reply With Quote
  #1344  
Old 06-15-2016, 06:39 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: xxx, Finland
Posts: 618
Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Yes. There is an order of precedence. Women's place of precedence changes a bit though if their husband is not present.
.
Thank you for your answer

My question was, in an oddly roundabout way, if Crown Prince Frederik of Denmark (and his wife), the British equivalent of Prince Charles, does outrank Prince William (is that his correct title?) and his wife, or not.

My question was not about who curtseys to whom, or who doesn't.
Reply With Quote
  #1345  
Old 06-15-2016, 06:49 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Torrance, United States
Posts: 2,964
"1. Sovereign- QEII
2. spouse of sovereign- DOE
3. eldest son of the sovereign- POW
4. younger sons of the sovereign based on birth order so Andrew then Ed
5. grandsons of the queen based on primogeniture
-Will
-Harry"

Actually I believe it is the following based upon succession to the throne:(Adults only)
1.Sovereign-QEII
2. Spouse of sovereign-DoE
3. Eldest son of the sovereign-PoW aka the heir and spouse (Camilla)
4. Eldest son of the heir-Duke of Cambridge and spouse (Catherine)
5. Second son of the heir-Prince Harry
6. Younger sons of the sovereign-DoY and adult children then EoW and spouse (Sophie)
7. Princess Royal and spouse (Timothy)/adult children
8. Gloucesters
9. Kents
Reply With Quote
  #1347  
Old 06-15-2016, 07:13 PM
Countessmeout's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: alberta, Canada
Posts: 3,477
Whether Crown princess or not, no Mary and Fred do not out rank William and his wife. Foreign royals do not feature in the order of precedence (which in recent years has also seen Will/Harry put above their Uncles). May and Fred would only out rank a HSH or HH, as their status is lower than a HRH. HRH's are all at the same level.

Precedence really comes only into play while ranking of the titles HM, HRH and so on. Among the sovereigns, they tend to be ranked depending on the length of their reign.

Just among the Europeans:
1. QEII
2. Margrethe
3. Carl Gustaf
4. Hans Adam
5. Harald
6. Henri
7. Albert of Monaco
8. WA
9. Philippe
10. Felipe
Reply With Quote
  #1348  
Old 06-15-2016, 07:18 PM
Countessmeout's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: alberta, Canada
Posts: 3,477
Quote:
Originally Posted by TLLK View Post
"1. Sovereign- QEII
2. spouse of sovereign- DOE
3. eldest son of the sovereign- POW
4. younger sons of the sovereign based on birth order so Andrew then Ed
5. grandsons of the queen based on primogeniture
-Will
-Harry"

Actually I believe it is the following based upon succession to the throne:(Adults only)
1.Sovereign-QEII
2. Spouse of sovereign-DoE
3. Eldest son of the sovereign-PoW aka the heir and spouse (Camilla)
4. Eldest son of the heir-Duke of Cambridge and spouse (Catherine)
5. Second son of the heir-Prince Harry
6. Younger sons of the sovereign-DoY and adult children then EoW and spouse (Sophie)
7. Princess Royal and spouse (Timothy)/adult children
8. Gloucesters
9. Kents
Precedence is not simply based on order of succession.QEII has made changes in the past few years, to better reflect the order of succession. So yes, William and Harry take precedence over their Uncles, in recent years. But that is only when the men are present. Kate still falls behind Anne and others when her husband is not present, as does Camilla. Which is a change, for during Diana's time, whether her husband was present or not, the Princess of Wales was only out ranked by the queen and queen mum.
Reply With Quote
  #1349  
Old 06-15-2016, 07:25 PM
Lady Nimue's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Pacific Palisades, United States
Posts: 2,094
Kate looks smashing! Great dress! Loving the hats this year as they are less 'fascinators' and more approaching real hats (more to them). They have my approval.
__________________
Russian National Anthem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGoNaLjQrV8
O Magnum Mysterium: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWU7dyey6yo
Reply With Quote
  #1350  
Old 06-15-2016, 07:25 PM
Queen Camilla's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Chicago, United States
Posts: 1,861
Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
1. The Queen
2. dowager (none)
3. queen's daughters- Princess Anne
4. queen's granddaughters-
-Bea
-Eugenie
-Louise
-Zara
5.daughters of the former sovereign (none)
6. granddaughters of the former sovereign- Princess Alexanda
7. wife of the heir apparent- Camilla
8. wives of the son of the heir apparent- Kate
9. wives of the younger sons of the sovereign- Sophie
10. wives of the grandsons of the former sovereign (who are duchesses)
-Duchess of Gloucester
-Duchess of kent
11. wives of the grandsons of former sovereign who are not duchesses
-Princess Michael
-Patricia Lascelles

Husband being present makes a huge difference in the case of Camilla and Kate. Camilla, when her husband is there, is only second to the queen and DOE.


Elizabeth changed it up though. Prior to 2005, Camilla would have taken precedence over all ladies, save for the queen, and Sophie after her. Princesses of the blood do rank in precedence above those married in, when their husbands are not there.
Is this a fact or just a nasty lie started by the tabloids?

Where is the copy or press release when the Queen issued this?
From BP and not from the DM. BP issued them for Charlotte so where is the one claiming to demote Camilla?

Is the 2005 or 2006 edition of The royal blue book court and parliamentary guide available or did they cease publication?
Reply With Quote
  #1351  
Old 06-15-2016, 07:33 PM
Queen Camilla's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Chicago, United States
Posts: 1,861
Princess Mary and Frederik outranks William and Catherine

Princess Mary curtseyed to Camilla so Catherine should have curtseyed to Mary, if she had not done so privately.
Reply With Quote
  #1352  
Old 06-15-2016, 07:58 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Birmingham, United States
Posts: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Both Kate and Mary are princesses. Sure Mary is the Crown Princess - the same rank as Camilla but that doesn't mean that Mary isn't also a Princess and I don't think anyone has ever seen Kate curtsey to Camilla so she wouldn't be expected to curtsey to someone else of the same rank.

In the UK the designation Prince/Princess is an indication of someone of lower rank than someone who is a HRH Duchess/Countess as it means they are married to a man who has no title of his own.

When Birgitte married Richard in 1972 she was given the styling of HRH Princess Richard of Gloucester. When he inherited his father's titles she also stopped using the lower styling of Princess and started to use the higher title of Duchess.

Only one married in wife in the UK uses the style of Princess - Princess Michael of Kent. The others, Camilla, Kate, Sophie, Birgitte and Katherine all use Duchess or Countess as their titles because their husbands are peers of the realm while Prince Michael is still a commoner with no additional title to give his wife.
This is where I get confused. You said that Prince/Princess is someone of lower rank than a HRH Duchess/Countess. Wouldn't that make Kate higher than blood Princesses Bea and Eugenie? Yet, I read that the order of precedence was changed so that the blood princesses were actually of higher rank than Kate. That info may have been false that I read.
Reply With Quote
  #1353  
Old 06-15-2016, 08:00 PM
Pranter's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 3,067
Why would Mary curtesy to Camilla if they are both equal standing in their lines of succession?



LaRae
Reply With Quote
  #1354  
Old 06-15-2016, 08:04 PM
Countessmeout's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: alberta, Canada
Posts: 3,477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Camilla View Post
Is this a fact or just a nasty lie started by the tabloids?

Where is the copy or press release when the Queen issued this?
From BP and not from the DM. BP issued them for Charlotte so where is the one claiming to demote Camilla?

Is the 2005 or 2006 edition of The royal blue book court and parliamentary guide available or did they cease publication?
Order of Precedence in England and Wales

This information comes from when Margret and the queen mum were alive, based on the legal precedents of the time.

The Queen putting her daughter and other blood relations ahead of Camilla and Kate is said to have been done for informal family occasions, so there is no real proof whether this is true or not. Legally, when she is with her husband Camilla should come ahead of all women, but fall behind Anne without.
Reply With Quote
  #1355  
Old 06-15-2016, 08:08 PM
AdmirerUS's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 4,458
I learned a long time ago, on the precedence thing that it is the Queen's prerogative. I have always thought, especially at Ascot, she loads the carriages in ways that suit the riders to converse and look smashing together as they go in. JMO
Reply With Quote
  #1356  
Old 06-15-2016, 08:15 PM
Queen Camilla's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Chicago, United States
Posts: 1,861
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
Why would Mary curtesy to Camilla if they are both equal standing in their lines of succession? LaRae
Do not know.
Mary joined the Royal Family before Camilla but some years back she curtseyed to Camilla.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Order of Precedence in England and Wales

The Queen putting her daughter and other blood relations ahead of Camilla and Kate is said to have been done for informal family occasions, so there is no real proof whether this is true or not. Legally, when she is with her husband Camilla should come ahead of all women, but fall behind Anne without.
No proof so it is something made up by the media and repeated as fact by others.
Reply With Quote
  #1357  
Old 06-15-2016, 08:24 PM
Zonk's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere in, United States
Posts: 11,332
Okay...time to move on....
__________________
.

Reply With Quote
  #1358  
Old 06-15-2016, 09:32 PM
Dman's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 11,485
Everyone looked great at Royal Ascot. I also like the tie tacks the men wore.
__________________
"THE REAL POWER OF A MAN IS IN THE SIZE OF THE SMILE OF THE WOMAN SITTING NEXT TO HIM."

GENTLEMAN'S ESSENTIALS
Reply With Quote
  #1359  
Old 06-15-2016, 09:36 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Torrance, United States
Posts: 2,964
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
Why would Mary curtesy to Camilla if they are both equal standing in their lines of succession?



LaRae
I agree. Both ladies hold equal rank being married to the heirs.
Reply With Quote
  #1360  
Old 06-15-2016, 09:56 PM
hel hel is online now
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Kitchener, Canada
Posts: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Wentworth Beaumont is Viscount Annadale. He and his wife are friends of William and Kate and were guests at their wedding. His sister Lucy married Viscount somebody or other just before George was born and Pippa was a guest at the wedding, one of those innumerable weddings the Daily Fail used to film her attending. The Annadales have homes in Northumberland and Yorkshire and are seriously wealthy.
Actually, it's Viscount Allendale and I think the couple with the Cambridges were actually Viscount Allendale's son and his wife, not the Viscount and Viscountess. The Viscount was born in 1948. The Honorable Mr. Beaumont was born in 1979, so is a contemporary of the Cambridges.

They're tricky, those Allendale's; all of the first born sons have been named Wentworth (including the Honorable Mr. and Mrs' first born, who was born in 2013).

You can see the family here:
Current Viscount Allendale
Hon Mr. Beaumont
Lucy Beaumont (who married Julian Marsham, who's actually the second son, not the Viscount Marsham)

There's a really interesting article about the current Viscount and his work on his estate: Lord Allendale, head of Allendale's 20,000 acre estate - The Journal

There's a bit about the Wentworth-at-Ascot:

Quote:
Allendale and his staff are currently returning 100 acres of coniferous woodland to its original habitat of heather moorland to enhance the moor. By allowing Natural England and Durham University to fence an area of moor, the partnership are looking into possible regeneration methods.

“My son Wentworth plays a very big part in the running of the estates nowadays and has a keen interest in the shooting side of things,” says Allendale. “He’s an art dealer in London but through regular emails and conference calls we can communicate frequently and he can still help run the business from London when he’s not here in Northumberland.”
There are some interesting parallels with William -- both of their fathers are very interested in conservation and both love shooting. It's not hard to see why they'd be friends.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
british royal family, royal ascot


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dubai Ruling Family at Royal Ascot: 2004-2016 sky Ruling Family of Dubai 396 06-17-2016 03:37 PM
New Royal Ascot Dress Code Ukroyalist Royal Style File 2 04-13-2012 06:24 AM
Royal Ascot 1: All Years to 2007 Josefine British Royals 244 06-15-2008 01:01 PM




Popular Tags
ascot 2016 best gown best gown september 2016 best hat best outfit catherine middleton style coup d'etat crown prince haakon crown princess mary crown princess mary's work for women's rights crown princess mary fashion crown princess mette-marit current events duchess of cambridge dutch state visit e-mail fashion poll grand duke jean greece hereditary grand duchess stéphanie's fashion & style jubilee kate middleton king abdullah ii king felipe king felipe vi king willem-alexander member introduction monarchy new zealand nobel gala norway november 2016 october 2016 opening of parliament oscars picture of the week prince bernhard prince charles princess marie princess mary princess mary daytime fashion princess mary fashion princess mary hats queen letizia queen letizia casual outfits queen letizia daytime fashion queen letizia fashion queen letizia style queen mathilde queen mathildes outfits queen maxima queen maxima casual wear queen maxima daytime fashion queen maxima fashion queen maxima hats queen maxima style queen rania queen rania daytime fashion royal fashion september 2016 sheikha mozah's fashion state visit state visit to denmark succession sweden the duchess of cambridge the duchess of cambridge casual wear the duchess of cambridge daytime fashion the duchess of cambridge fashion the duchess of cambridge hats


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:33 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2016
Jelsoft Enterprises