The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #1161  
Old 11-12-2018, 12:24 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Posts: 2,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
I was actually a bit surprised that the German President chose to go to London. While I understand that Germany had nothing to celebrate when they lost the war don't they have any ceremonies to commemorate the fallen soldiers?
Those ceremonies we witness every year in Britain would be totally unthinkable and unpopular in Germany. Commemorations like these are only performed by the political class because it´s their duty to remember in a way... Yes, there is a one minute silence in the Bundestag, but that´s a short note in the evening news lasting a few seconds and that´s that.
Honouring the war dead is considered a purely private affair being done in the families.

There is not that support and high regard for the army like in the UK or the US. It is there, that´s ok, but nothing beyond that. The army is something that happens in the news on the telly but nothing of every day public life.


I think if there were these public displays of military commemorations most people would react with a shaking of their head. It would cause many cynical comments about "celebrating and glorifying war"and a "waste" of time and money...!
I also believe that the approach of Britons toward the military, the traditions and love of "pomp and circumstance" is one aspect why so many Germans, which occur to me much more pragmatic and prosaic, consider the british to be rather eccentric and bewildering. Brexit was another proof of this prejudice. That´ s a bit sad if you are someone who is in his heart more british than teutonic...

To be honest, apart from Germany´s highly controversial past, my personal feeling beyond that is that there is also no real interest in commemorating or dealing with this particular subject of the average german people at all.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #1162  
Old 11-12-2018, 01:08 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: alpine village, Germany
Posts: 2,347
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
I was actually a bit surprised that the German President chose to go to London. While I understand that Germany had nothing to celebrate when they lost the war don't they have any ceremonies to commemorate the fallen soldiers?
I completely agree. Though we do have such a public holiday for that, it's next sunday, Nov. 18th. It's always 2 sundays before the 1. sunday of advent. We call it "Volkstrauertag" - people's grieving day.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #1163  
Old 11-12-2018, 01:19 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 9,720
Quote:
Originally Posted by lady of hay View Post
[....] I understand that such events do not happen in other parts of Europe [....]
Do Mitterrand and Kohl in Verdun, or do Macron and Merkel in Compiegne ring a bell?

11/11 is a remembrance in all countries which were involved in WWI.
Reply With Quote
  #1164  
Old 11-12-2018, 02:44 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 3,216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
I completely agree. Though we do have such a public holiday for that, it's next sunday, Nov. 18th. It's always 2 sundays before the 1. sunday of advent. We call it "Volkstrauertag" - people's grieving day.
This goes along with what I was saying upthread--except Great Britain's big Remembrance observation is the 2nd Sunday of November-the Sunday closest to November 11. It was just a coincidence of the calendar that the 100th anniversary of the Armistice-Nov 11 was on that Sunday.
I think that may be why Great Britain didn't send anyone to the events in France on this particular day.
Reply With Quote
  #1165  
Old 11-12-2018, 02:58 PM
Pranter's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 11,367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
I completely agree. Though we do have such a public holiday for that, it's next sunday, Nov. 18th. It's always 2 sundays before the 1. sunday of advent. We call it "Volkstrauertag" - people's grieving day.

Ah that would explain why my son and his wife didn't see anything about it there so far. I'll have to tell them!



LaRae
Reply With Quote
  #1166  
Old 11-12-2018, 03:05 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Posts: 2,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
Ah that would explain why my son and his wife didn't see anything about it there so far. I'll have to tell them!
LaRae

Well, he shouldn´t expect very much to happen. It´s just a thing being unnoticed by the majority. For them it´s just an average sunday like others. Politicians will attend some events which will be shown in short news clips on the telly. The average german is just hardly interested in this.
Reply With Quote
  #1167  
Old 11-12-2018, 03:21 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: England, United Kingdom
Posts: 2,628
I was initially surprised in a way that no one high profile represented the UK but I do feel its important to place the emphasis on memorials at home, it would have been seen as a snub to those at home if the Queen, Charles or William attended the French events over the London ones, likewise I suspect the plans for Andrew, Anne and Edward to attend events in each of the home nations would have been in place and taken importance over events in France.
Also bear in mind, in the UK Remembrance Day takes in to account ALL those who have died in conflict, not just those in WW1.

Interesting comments from Sir Tim Laurence about the "gentleman's agreement" and I tend to agree with its sentiments personally.Here is an extract

How on earth should one do it? How should the centenary of the end of a war be marked? Not just any war — the Great War. A war which involved almost every country and resulted in millions of deaths. As we approach the 100th eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month, the answer is that we will mark its end in many different ways. This year 11 November falls on a Sunday, so the main remembrance events must all happen on one day. A gentleman’s agreement in Europe had been that each nation would mark it in their own way on their own soil. However President Macron has invited his fellow leaders to join him in Paris. Awkward. Does one snub one’s own country or the French? No doubt elegant solutions will be found.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/...brance-sunday/
Reply With Quote
  #1168  
Old 11-12-2018, 03:27 PM
Lumutqueen's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Middlewich, United Kingdom
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
I was initially surprised in a way that no one high profile represented the UK but I do feel its important to place the emphasis on memorials at home, it would have been seen as a snub to those at home if the Queen, Charles or William attended the French events over the London ones, likewise I suspect the plans for Andrew, Anne and Edward to attend events in each of the home nations would have been in place and taken importance over events in France.
Also bear in mind, in the UK Remembrance Day takes in to account ALL those who have died in conflict, not just those in WW1.

Interesting comments from Sir Tim Laurence about the "gentleman's agreement" and I tend to agree with its sentiments personally.Here is an extract

How on earth should one do it? How should the centenary of the end of a war be marked? Not just any war — the Great War. A war which involved almost every country and resulted in millions of deaths. As we approach the 100th eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month, the answer is that we will mark its end in many different ways. This year 11 November falls on a Sunday, so the main remembrance events must all happen on one day. A gentleman’s agreement in Europe had been that each nation would mark it in their own way on their own soil. However President Macron has invited his fellow leaders to join him in Paris. Awkward. Does one snub one’s own country or the French? No doubt elegant solutions will be found.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/...brance-sunday/
Beautiful summation.
__________________
We Will Remember Them.
Reply With Quote
  #1169  
Old 11-12-2018, 03:32 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Wherever, United States
Posts: 5,874
I’m not arguing either way whether a member of BRF or Theresa May should’ve gone to France. But for those critical of what happened in France and bringing up Tim Laurence’s comments, isn’t Britain inviting the German President violating the same Gentlemen’s agreement?
Reply With Quote
  #1170  
Old 11-12-2018, 03:32 PM
Pranter's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 11,367
Quote:
Originally Posted by wartenberg7 View Post
Well, he shouldn´t expect very much to happen. It´s just a thing being unnoticed by the majority. For them it´s just an average sunday like others. Politicians will attend some events which will be shown in short news clips on the telly. The average german is just hardly interested in this.

I guess that makes sense really considering the circumstances. It's of course a pretty big thing here still.


LaRae
Reply With Quote
  #1171  
Old 11-12-2018, 03:43 PM
JR76's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Posts: 2,693
From the replies to my question it seems that, for different reasons, the Germans are as uninterested with national ceremonies of remembrance as my fellow Swedes are. We're all very proud of our country's achievements, but we're not that much interested in celebrating it. Veterans day didn't become a national flag day until this year and our national day have only been a public holiday for a few years. It wasn't that long ago that May 1st was more widely celebrated than what at the time was called "Day of the Swedish flag"
Reply With Quote
  #1172  
Old 11-12-2018, 03:49 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: ., Germany
Posts: 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
I was actually a bit surprised that the German President chose to go to London. While I understand that Germany had nothing to celebrate when they lost the war don't they have any ceremonies to commemorate the fallen soldiers?
To add to all the great information and reasons other members have posted - Rememberance Day is pretty close to November 9th - a rather complex date for Germany, so I think for many it wouldn't feel appropriate to focus on one aspect of that date (eg remembering the end of a war) without adressing the others.
November 9th is also known as the "Schicksalstag der Deutschen" (day of fate:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nove...German_history) because many crucial events happened on this day - terrible and great ones. The most important ones would certainly be the proclamation of the republic in 1918, the Novemberprogrom in 1938 and the fall of the Wall in 1989. The date of the fall of the Wall would have been the logical date for the national day, but because of the terrible associations of that date (especially the beginning of the Novemberprogroms), it was never seriously considered (and the rather meaningless October 3th was choosen). (If you ask me, November 9th would make a great national day. Not one to celebrate, but one to learn and think and remember. )
Reply With Quote
  #1173  
Old 11-12-2018, 03:50 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: alpine village, Germany
Posts: 2,347
LaRae - here in Bavaria we have next sunday in close to every village commemoration walks, first to church and then to the memorials. Often salut is being shot with pistols prepared for that - we call it "Böllerschüsse". A bit like fireworks, but without the sparkles, only the sound. It doesn't happen in the big cities very often, because it's only in the villages that people are related to the late soldiers and still feel they have to honour them. Our army was thoroughly dishonoured in the last war and so we don't feel as a nation that we have to mourn much, but of course when you lost a relative, you want to honour them, because they didn't go there because they loved being part of slaughter, but had to. Those who went there because they wanted to do cruel, inhuman things, so often survived, fled, changed their names or crawled back home to to being accused. Those "normally" are not honoured then. But there still is this "ugly smell" to it in Germany, which makes that a problematic thing.
Reply With Quote
  #1174  
Old 11-12-2018, 03:54 PM
JR76's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Posts: 2,693
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iolanthe View Post
To add to all the great information and reasons other members have posted - Rememberance Day is pretty close to November 9th - a rather complex date for Germany, so I think for many it wouldn't feel appropriate to focus on one aspect of that date (eg remembering the end of a war) without adressing the others.
November 9th is also known as the "Schicksalstag der Deutschen" (day of fate:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nove...German_history) because many crucial events happened on this day - terrible and great ones. The most important ones would certainly be the proclamation of the republic in 1918, the Novemberprogrom in 1938 and the fall of the Wall in 1989. The date of the fall of the Wall would have been the logical date for the national day, but because of the terrible associations of that date (especially the beginning of the Novemberprogroms), it was never seriously considered (and the rather meaningless October 3th was choosen). (If you ask me, November 9th would make a great national day. Not one to celebrate, but one to learn and think and remember. )
In Sweden the media has focused more on the 80th anniversary of the Kristallnacht and the far right demonstrations in Poland than on the end of WWI.
Although Sweden remained neutral (for real in this war) the country was still much affected by the war so it's a bit sad that it didn't get more attention.
Reply With Quote
  #1175  
Old 11-12-2018, 04:03 PM
Lumutqueen's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Middlewich, United Kingdom
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post
I’m not arguing either way whether a member of BRF or Theresa May should’ve gone to France. But for those critical of what happened in France and bringing up Tim Laurence’s comments, isn’t Britain inviting the German President violating the same Gentlemen’s agreement?
Perhaps Germany is the exemption, seeing as they don't seem to mark it as other countries do. Macron didn't just invite one, he invited them all.
I did feel, personally, a little aggrieved that Justin chose to attend the one in Paris. I assume as per the agreement he was not invited to the UK. King Felipe was in attendance in France on Sunday and Spain was neutral in WW1.


I've also just seen that the International Governance Forum is being hosted in Paris from 12th-14th November. It has been attended by at least Justin if not other foreign leaders, so this may also have something to do with the invites this weekend.
__________________
We Will Remember Them.
Reply With Quote
  #1176  
Old 11-12-2018, 04:06 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 272
A couple of thoughts about the various events of the last few days.

I think the British Royal Family got it right by deciding to attend the centenary of 11/11/1918 en masse in London and then 'sending' an HRH in each of the four home nations.



It was wonderful to see the German President lay a wreath at the cenotaph.



I have never felt it to be entirely right that Germany has been singled out by the Allied Powers for its role in World War I and has entered the general consciousness as being THE enemy. I suppose it's because it was the most powerful nation in the bloc and the one which had a front with all the 'biggest' Allies (France, England, the US and Russia). Nevertheless, Austria-Hungary, the Ottoman Empire and Bulgaria also fought.



For Monarchists, 1917-8 marks the downfall of the Russian, Ottoman, Austrian (& Hungarian), Prussian, Bavarian, Saxon, Wurttemberg, and Montenegrin monarchies. As we know, events over the next 30 years showed that the removal of these monarchies did nothing to prevent conflict and may, in some (most?) cases, have made things a lot worse.



How nice it would have been to see Prince Georg Friedrich of Prussia, Archduke Karl and King Simeon II alongside Queen Elizabeth II, King Philippe, Crown prince Alexander II of Serbia, Prince Vittorio Emanuele and Grand Duchess Maria, amongst others, in a 'reconciliation' of cousins and an acknowledgement of the sacrifices of all those who died and/or killed, starved or succumbed to disease in those years of butchery.
Reply With Quote
  #1177  
Old 11-12-2018, 04:08 PM
HereditaryPrincess's Avatar
Heir Apparent
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 11,530
Even though HM is also the Queen of Canada, perhaps Justin Trudeau attended the French service due to the French-speaking connections with Canada? Just a thought.
I'm pleased that the German President and his wife were invited in an attempt to restore any previous tension between Germany and the UK.
__________________
"For beautiful eyes, look for the good in others; for beautiful lips, speak only words of kindness; and for poise, walk with the knowledge that you are never alone". Audrey Hepburn

*
"Think of all the beauty still left around you and be happy". Anne Frank
Reply With Quote
  #1178  
Old 11-12-2018, 04:10 PM
Pranter's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 11,367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
LaRae - here in Bavaria we have next sunday in close to every village commemoration walks, first to church and then to the memorials. Often salut is being shot with pistols prepared for that - we call it "Böllerschüsse". A bit like fireworks, but without the sparkles, only the sound. It doesn't happen in the big cities very often, because it's only in the villages that people are related to the late soldiers and still feel they have to honour them. Our army was thoroughly dishonoured in the last war and so we don't feel as a nation that we have to mourn much, but of course when you lost a relative, you want to honour them, because they didn't go there because they loved being part of slaughter, but had to. Those who went there because they wanted to do cruel, inhuman things, so often survived, fled, changed their names or crawled back home to to being accused. Those "normally" are not honoured then. But there still is this "ugly smell" to it in Germany, which makes that a problematic thing.

I totally understand. German Americans in the 40's and 50's (my mother in law was half German, from Barvaria, and my dad's family was mostly German) refused to speak German to their children or teach them the language. Which of course was a real shame but totally understandable.

It would be hard as a country to recognize the day due to the role the military played and yet all the loved ones lost and as you say, many forced (even very young boys) to serve. I'm not sure a country ever really recovers from this...maybe 100 more years.


Our son is in SW Germany near the Belgium/French/Lux border. I'll have to ask him if anything goes on next Sunday in that area...he lives in a small village.



LaRae
Reply With Quote
  #1179  
Old 11-12-2018, 04:21 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: pinner, United Kingdom
Posts: 3,076
Quote:
How nice it would have been to see Prince Georg Friedrich of Prussia, Archduke Karl
Indeed.. as descendants and heirs to the thrones with which we fought 1914-18, their presence would have been far more meaningful than the President of a 'successor' polity, without connection to the war itself.
Reply With Quote
  #1180  
Old 11-12-2018, 05:30 PM
MARG's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 9,058
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
I was initially surprised in a way that no one high profile represented the UK but I do feel its important to place the emphasis on memorials at home, it would have been seen as a snub to those at home if the Queen, Charles or William attended the French events over the London ones, likewise I suspect the plans for Andrew, Anne and Edward to attend events in each of the home nations would have been in place and taken importance over events in France.
Also bear in mind, in the UK Remembrance Day takes in to account ALL those who have died in conflict, not just those in WW1.

Interesting comments from Sir Tim Laurence about the "gentleman's agreement" and I tend to agree with its sentiments personally.Here is an extract

How on earth should one do it? How should the centenary of the end of a war be marked? Not just any war — the Great War. A war which involved almost every country and resulted in millions of deaths. As we approach the 100th eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month, the answer is that we will mark its end in many different ways. This year 11 November falls on a Sunday, so the main remembrance events must all happen on one day. A gentleman’s agreement in Europe had been that each nation would mark it in their own way on their own soil. However President Macron has invited his fellow leaders to join him in Paris. Awkward. Does one snub one’s own country or the French? No doubt elegant solutions will be found.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/...brance-sunday/
I think the ad hoc "Peace" meeting was what drove the elevation of France's international guest list. Since they spent more time moving names around the dinner table to avoid enclaves shows that now was not the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post
I’m not arguing either way whether a member of BRF or Theresa May should’ve gone to France. But for those critical of what happened in France and bringing up Tim Laurence’s comments, isn’t Britain inviting the German President violating the same Gentlemen’s agreement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HereditaryPrincess View Post
Even though HM is also the Queen of Canada, perhaps Justin Trudeau attended the French service due to the French-speaking connections with Canada? Just a thought.
I'm pleased that the German President and his wife were invited in an attempt to restore any previous tension between Germany and the UK.
This outward sign of an actual reality is an overt demonstration of Reconciliation.

What does both surprise and even shock me is the number of people who have referred to the 100th Anniversary of the end of WWI as a celebration? It is not! It is, just like every 11th of November, a commemoration and a remembrance.

In Australia and New Zealand, we mark that tremendous loss on ANZAC Day.
__________________

__________________
MARG
"Words ought to be a little wild, for they are assaults of thoughts on the unthinking." - JM Keynes
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cenotaph, ceremonies, memorial, remembrance day


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Popular Tags
alqasimi aristocracy armenia bavaria;house;chef;luitpold;ludwig belgian royal family castles charles of wales chittagong countess of snowdon crown crown prince hussein crown prince hussein's future wife crown princess victoria current events cyprus danish history denmark duchess of sussex duke of cambridge duke of sussex dutch history foundation french revolution genealogy germany head of the house henry v house of bourbon house of glucksburg house of grimaldi house of orange-nassau house of saxe-coburg and gotha jumma kiko king philippe letter lithuanian castles marriage mbs meghan markle monaco christening monaco history monarchist monarchy monogram naples nelson mandela bay nobel 2019 norwegian royal family official visit palaces potential areas prince harry prince of wales rania of jordan romanov family rumania shakespeare south korea spain spanish history spanish royal state visit sweden swedish royal family swedish royalty tracts united kingdom usa windy city


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:42 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019
Jelsoft Enterprises
×