Relationship between The Queen Mother and The Duchess of Windsor

[Zonk]

Wallis and Elizabeth did meet at Balmoral.

Edward was already King. The King was going to Balmoral after Ascot, but couldn't do an engagement in Aerdeen becomes he was mourning, and instead sent Bertie and Elizabeth (because mourning didn't apply to both brothers). And while he couldn't do the Abderdeen engaement, he did drive to the rail station to pick up Wallis and the Rogers (Herman and Katherine). While George and a pregnant Marina came at a rail station that wasn't so close to Balmoral and waited to be picked up, but this wasn't good enough for Wallis (Davids fault IMO). So Also, the King didn't invite the Archbishop of Canterbury (because he knew how the Archbishiop felt about David, Wallis and their relationship). Instead the Archbiship stayed with the Yorks.

This is the time frame that Wallis acted as the hostess, and Elizabeth did her "I came to dine with the King" speech.

They met the first time the pre wedding event for George and Marina, where some thought that Wallis attempted to upstage the bride to be (with her attire and jewels). They also met a Royal Lodge where Wallis made suggestions to their garden (taking down the trees and moving part of the hill for a better view) with David. After popping without a proper invitation (though I think that is more David's fault than Wallis), but again it was viewed as a power play as the Yorks lived at the grace and favor Royal Lodge as a courtesy of the King. And making a suggestion about their graden, was viewed as I have the power to change aspects of your home and you can't do anything about it.

 

[Vecchiolarry]

Hi Zonk,

I thought Royal Lodge was given to the Yorks by George V when they were first married...
Perhaps as a 'grace & favour home' - but I don't know....

Didn't the Queen Mother will it to Andrew, the present Duke of York?
Would she have been able to do this if it was 'g&f???

Can you set me straight?

Larry

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

My dear Zonk,

What is the source material for these meetings? I am not challenging you but after reading the Queen Mother's biography where none of this is mentioned, I want to read more about meetings between the then Duchess of York and Wallis Simpson. The biography by Shawcross mentions Edward picking up Wallis and the Rogerses at the Aberdeen station the same time the Duke and Duchess of York opened the Aberdeen Infirmary but mentions nothing of the "I am here to dine with the King" speech or that the two women met at that time.

 

[Russophile]

In all of the books, posts etc. that I have read over the years I have never found the fact that Wallis was an American as a primary cause of contention. More that she was totally unsuitable (Divorces and lovers) which I think society thought Americans were all totally OK with what they saw as licentious behaviour.

That's quite hypocritical of sociey since Duff Cooper, Lady Diana's husband was carrying on with Louise de Vilmorin (with her consent) and Oswald Mosley was carrying on with Baba Metcalfe (who was married to Fruity, the Duke of Windsor's buddy) while he was carrying on with a divorced Diana Mitford Guiness.

 

[MARG]

Oh it's totally unfair. But Duff Cooper and Oswald Mosely weren't the Prince of Wales and their sexploits were not the subject of Parliamentary debate or FBI surveillance.

More importantly, Louise de Vilmorin, Baba Metcalfe and Diana Mitford Guiness were not potential Princesses of Wales or worse, Queen!

As we know it is appearances that count and the PoW and Wallis were anything but discreet.

 

[Tsaritsa]

Russophile, wasn't it ever thus- one rule for them, something quite different for us.
VM, your fellow expert Zonk is correct about the meeting places. Whilst I'm very poor at remembering the titles of books, I think I may have come across a line in the book written by David which told of driving the new car-an American station wagon?-to show Bertie- who "showed more interest in it than in my other American interest." Perhaps it was during this visit that Wallis suggested moving the trees and if that statement is looked at more closely, it rather hints at a deliberate attempt on Wallis' part to undermine Elizabeth in her own home. The animosity between the two women must have crackled and whilst I can understand where Elizabeth was coming from I find it more difficult to understand Wallis' motives.

 

[MARG]

Where Wallis was coming from? I suspect she saw herself as de facto Princess of Wales initially and soon to be Queen later. Thus putting "Cookie" in her place as wife to her lover's heir was probably the best way of "sticking it to" this woman who epitomised everything that Wallis wasn't, current Royal womanhood.

The dowdy Duchess of York's automatic entrée into high society, should she ever have bothered to exercise it, must have grated on Wallis who had elegance, wit and style but was only accepted there because she was the Prince of Wales lover.

 

[Nice Nofret]

a royal bride had to be a virgin; if a married woman had a discreed affair - that is one thing (if there is no doubt about who fathered the heir ) but carrying on openly quite another .. Diana Mitford WAS a scandal - ;

Discreed = as long as it's not in the press - if it's only known in their own circle everything else = scandal = no royal bride

 

[Zonk]

My dear Zonk,

What is the source material for these meetings? I am not challenging you but after reading the Queen Mother's biography where none of this is mentioned, I want to read more about meetings between the then Duchess of York and Wallis Simpson. The biography by Shawcross mentions Edward picking up Wallis and the Rogerses at the Aberdeen station the same time the Duke and Duchess of York opened the Aberdeen Infirmary but mentions nothing of the "I am here to dine with the King" speech or that the two women met at that time.

Not a problem. I have read it in a couple of different sourcs, The Reluctant King By Sarah Bradford deals with the Balmoral meeting between the Duchess of York and Mrs. Wallis Simpson, from pages 170 to 173. Her source is The Royal Feud by Michael Thornton, where I read the same account.

Key Points:

*Tension between the Yorks and Wallis reached its hight point for far in Balmoral in late September. It was the last time they met socially (as George VI died in 51, so it was the last time the four were together). The Yorks stayed at Birkhall (now owned by Prince of Wales).

*Edward picked Wallis and the Rogers up at Abderdeen Station. The King drove 60 miles into the city to pick up Wallis. Into a city that at that very moment the Yorks were doing an engagement on his behalf because he was mourning. His picture made front page news. According to reports, both Scotland and the Yorks were outraged.

*Wallis was installed in rooms that had been used by Queen Mary for 25 years. According to guests, Wallis went out of her way to exert her power and vex the Family, sending the King out the room to order champagne (shown in The Kings Speech) while she was playign bridge, showing them around the house, saying this "tartan has to go," suggesting improvements of the royal plate and the placing of furniture.

*According to the book, he also handed her state documents to read in front of their guests.

*Dinner party was held on September 26, 1936, as Elizabeth enetered the drawing room ahead of her husband, Wallis came forward to greet her. Court etiquette at the time (not sure how it is now) decreees that royalty should be greeted by the official host or hostess, which in this case was Edward, not Wallis. Wallis could have been ignorant of this convention, or pehaps more likely in view of her previous behavior with the Yorks, it was, as an observer put it, a deliberate and calcuated display of power. The Duchess recognized it as such, walked straight past Wallis, and said "as if to no one in paricular," I came to dine with the King." The Duke of York looked embarassed, the King starled, broke off a conversation and came to greet his brother and sister in law. At dinner, Wallis sat at the head of the table, but the Duchess of York without a glance at Wallis led the women from the table at the end of dinner.

 

[Aotearoagal]

It's not hard to imagine how Elizabeth would be angry and resentful towards Wallis for imposing the burden of the throne on her and her husband, even though her brother-in-law was most responsible for refusing to let her go. She felt Wallis was not an honourable woman and was out for herself. When her husband died in 1952, she became bitter about his early death and blamed Wallis and Edward.

She did ease her bitterness and anger over time, but never wavered in her view that Wallis was "the lowest of the low".

Another documentary has just been screened on Australian television, with all the FBI information on Wallis and Edwards' activities during World War II. Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother despised Wallis because she was not just a Nazi sympathiser, but an active spy, through her affair with a German diplomat which continued during WWII. The only thing the UK could do with W&E was to send them to the Bahamas and keep a close eye on them. Wallis and Edward nearly cost the British and Americans the war - they leaked vital tactical information. Edward was actively conspiring to return to Britain as a Nazi puppet king. It's all on the record. Anyone who thinks the mother of the current reigning Queen of England would bother to despise Wallis Simpson over a bit of protocol is vastly underestimating her character.
(By the way, I trust that Madonna's movie W.E. which glorifies these anti-semitic Nazis will be a big fail.)

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

My dear Zonk,

Thank you for the references. I pulled my copy of King Edward VIII by Ziegler to see if somehow I had forgotten any incidents about QETQM meeting the DoW but there were only two specific incidents and few facts. One mention came about the dinner at Fort Belvedere where an aide, Aird, recalled in his diary that he was amused to see both women in the same room despite QETQM stating publicly that she would not meet Mrs. Simpson. Another incident recalled a gentleman who said he was dining with the Yorks at the Dorchester when the Prince and Wallis arrived in a separate party. After one dance, the Yorks decided to leave and the party broke up. Clearly, the Establishment did not want to have anything to do with Mrs. Simpson, probably a reflection on how King George V and Queen Mary felt about her and how they felt about the Prince's involvement with a married woman.

Do you, or anyone else, think the biographer of Queen Elizabeth avoided specific incidents because they were so unpleasant and distressful? Or could it be that these incidents, i.e., the Duchess of York snubbing Mrs. Simpson in front of others, although understandable from the Duchess's perspective and background, were not particularly flattering to her and the others involved?

 

[Zonk]

I haven't read the Shawcross book, but Elspeth read it and she indicated that certain events weren't in the official book. So one can assume that that either the book didn't deal with certain events because 1) why write about unpleasant memories and 2) if one lives to be 100 you can't remember or write about every event. So I think its a little of both.

The only time that the Queen Mother indicated that she wouldn't receive Wallis was after the abdication, and the Windsor wedding. Prior to that, I believe the women had met on a couple of occassions. Let's not forget that Albert and David were close as children (not the same as they grew older as result of David becoming closer to George and Bertie getting married) but the Yorks had definitely met Wallis at the Fort, at the George/Marina pre wedding party, and at Royal Lodge. The Yorks, Edward, and Wallis didn't really socialize in the same exact social circle. They all socialized wtih the aristrocracy, but Wallis and David moreso with the cooler aspects (the Coopers, Lady Colefax and Cunard, etc.).

Elizabeth was also good friends with Lady Furness so it had nothing to with Wallis being an American married/divorced women, I just think it was they way things went down.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Interesting observations. Of course, the QM wasn't around when Shawcross wrote the book, so maybe he did it out of discretion for her wishes or the wishes of the royal family or maybe he just did not think it was relevant or important. Shawcross does touch upon the incidents where the QM did not make overtures to the Duchess or the Duke years later, or when she did not meet with one or both of them, but the QM did mention that the Duchess had made the Duke happy.

I found it interesting that when the Queen and Prince Charles dined with the Duchess at Buckingham Palace before the Duke's funeral, the QM did not attend because she had a mild attack of the shingles. Shingles is brought on by stress and it appears that thirty-six years later, the abdication which made her a queen and all the incidents leading thereto still stirred up some feelings. Longford wrote that the funeral was an ordeal for Queen Elizabeth but a lady-in-waiting to Queen Elizabeth said that she had no problem meeting with the Duchess then.

 

[Zonk]

Not quite sure why Shawcross omitted some things. I mean there have been SO many books written about the Windsor that touched on the early days of the relationship, the abdication and their remaining years. Perhaps the author thought it had already been touched upon.

THe Queen Mother also sent the Duchess funeral after the death of the Duke, and signed it with In Friendship Elizabeth.

I think at that point so much had passed, both of their husbands were dead and it was like....why keep up the hostility. Although for Wallis, it was too little too late.

Its worth noting that after the Abdication when the Duke and Duchess came to England, they did not say with the royal family, they usually stayed with friends. If the Duke met the King, the Queen never saw him...according one book...she would be conveniently out of the Palace. I don't believe the King ever met Wallis after the Abdication. I know Queen Mary didn't. The Gloucesters would see them time to time.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Funny how families. royal and non-royal, can be so alike when it comes to inter-family strife. I imagine the Gloucesters, being more removed and not immediately affected by the abdication, could socialize with the Windsors from time to time. The Duke of Kent was close to Edward and he tried to accommodate his brother's wishes but the Duchess of Kent, perhaps being more schooled in how a royal should act and behave, was said to view Wallis as an alarming and dangerous adventuress and was very reluctant to even be with her.

Perhaps the QM lamented the severing of close ties between the brothers and the break between her and the Duke of Windsor (they were very fond of each other at first) and thus found it very difficult to see him as well. Surprising because Wallis made Elizabeth a queen and from all accounts Elizabeth enjoyed being the queen but she was also known as being an "ostrich" who avoided unpleasantness whenever she could. Her avoidance of the Windsors may have been her way of coping.

 

[Lenora]

Another documentary has just been screened on Australian television, with all the FBI information on Wallis and Edwards' activities during World War II. Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother despised Wallis because she was not just a Nazi sympathiser, but an active spy, through her affair with a German diplomat which continued during WWII. The only thing the UK could do with W&E was to send them to the Bahamas and keep a close eye on them. Wallis and Edward nearly cost the British and Americans the war - they leaked vital tactical information. Edward was actively conspiring to return to Britain as a Nazi puppet king. It's all on the record. Anyone who thinks the mother of the current reigning Queen of England would bother to despise Wallis Simpson over a bit of protocol is vastly underestimating her character.
(By the way, I trust that Madonna's movie W.E. which glorifies these anti-semitic Nazis will be a big fail.)

Let me disagree on this point.I understand that Wallis had many weak and even negative aspects of personality,but I do not trust at all the company aimed to denigrate her in the eyes of future generation.Of course she was neither an angel nor an ideal wife ,but it's shame to accuse her of being Nazi spy.She is dead and has no issue,so she could not be defended at a proper way.Let's not forget Edward's background before meeting the "evil" one-Wallis.He was never enough serious to carry his duties seriously and had affairs with married women,he never really wanted to settle down with a proper wife like his brothers did.It was a stupidity from their part and a great political mistake to accept Hitler's invitation,it was probably the silly self-pride reasons.Wallis had not been enough intelligent to be a spy,she had failed to create a proper family,maybe someone wanted to involve her with promising to make her the Queen one day,but she never was a professional and did not want to implly deeply in such a matter.So she wasn't the main person that caused king's abdication,she was not guilty of it,the way people used to treat her was expressed in many slogans,such as "Hands off from our king".I do not idealize her,but I did not like the way she is presented in some books,documentaries or even in "The King's Speech".I believe Madonna will idealize Wallis,but wasn't idealized Evita Peron and others?

 

[Bundtrock]

I think HM King George VI and HRH The Duke of Windsor were both men who loved very deeply and very passionately, I think their respective pursuits of the women they fell in love with are very indicative of the depth of their feelings.

I also believe that life events worked out exactly the way they were suppose to. Without a shadow of a doubt in my mind, HM King George VI and HM Queen Elizabeth were precisely what was needed to hold the United Kingdom unified during World War II. HM Queen Elizabeth II has proven herself to be a spectacular Monarch, my respect for her is truly boundless.

I also believe that HRH The Duke of Windsor and the Duchess of Windsor were truly happy and content as a couple and thoroughly enjoyed their life together, I believe they truly and deeply loved and respected each another.

I have read previously that HM Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother blamed the Windsors for HM King George VI's early death. I think perhaps deep grief might have been the cause of any such feelings and expression thereof, IF that assertion was actually made. I believe HM King George VI was a heavy smoker throughout his life and that was most likely the cause of his mid life demise?

 

[Zonk]

I believe the Queen Mother felt that the additional responsibilities caused the King to smoke (although he was a smoker before just became a heavier smoker because of the stress). And the additional responsiblities were a result of Edward choosing love over duty.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

And she may have been jealous that her married life had been cut short whereas the Duke and Duchess of Windsor were married for many more years. No doubt the cares and worry of the office exaggerated the deleterious effect of his constant smoking and she probably resented that as well.

 

[blue sky]

It seems the late Queen Mother was such a vindictive person who hated the Duchess of Windsor to the end (and scorned the fact that Mrs Simpson was twice divorced etc), that it is "ironic" and "fitting" that she was alive to witness the demise of the marriages of her daughter, Margaret, and her grandchildren, Charles, Andrew, and Anne.

 

[Mermaid1962]

I don't believe that the Queen Mother "hated the D of W to the end," and to suggest that she therefore deserved to see her daughter and grand-children's marriages fail is simply unkind IMO.

It seems the late Queen Mother was such a vindictive person who hated the Duchess of Windsor to the end (and scorned the fact that Mrs Simpson was twice divorced etc), that it is "ironic" and "fitting" that she was alive to witness the demise of the marriages of her daughter, Margaret, and her grandchildren, Charles, Andrew, and Anne.

 

[NGalitzine]

It seems the late Queen Mother was such a vindictive person who hated the Duchess of Windsor to the end (and scorned the fact that Mrs Simpson was twice divorced etc), that it is "ironic" and "fitting" that she was alive to witness the demise of the marriages of her daughter, Margaret, and her grandchildren, Charles, Andrew, and Anne.

I don't believe there are any quotes attributed to her that would indicate lifelong animosity towards the Duchess.

 

[Renata4711]

I always believed that QM hated the fact that her husband was more or less forced to become king.

 

[Lumutqueen]

It seems the late Queen Mother was such a vindictive person who hated the Duchess of Windsor to the end (and scorned the fact that Mrs Simpson was twice divorced etc), that it is "ironic" and "fitting" that she was alive to witness the demise of the marriages of her daughter, Margaret, and her grandchildren, Charles, Andrew, and Anne.

That's a real cruel thing to say.
Wallis was everything that Elizabeth wasn't, everything that opposed the royal families beliefs and what they stood for. That woman basically forced King George into an early grave.

 

[Bundtrock]

That's a real cruel thing to say.
Wallis was everything that Elizabeth wasn't, everything that opposed the royal families beliefs and what they stood for. That woman basically forced King George into an early grave.

If I am reading your post correctly, you are alluding that serving as King / Monarch put King George VI into an early grave? Am I interpreting your post correctly?

Considering Queen Elizabeth II is in her mid eighties now, has served for 55+ years, I question that assertion.

If that was your intent, what does that say about the position of Monarch and the absolute expectation that one serve based on birth?

 

[Lumutqueen]

If I am reading your post correctly, you are alluding that serving as King / Monarch put King George VI into an early grave? Am I interpreting your post correctly?

Considering Queen Elizabeth II is in her mid eighties now, has served for 55+ years, I question that assertion.

If that was your intent, what does that say about the position of Monarch and the absolute expectation that one serve based on birth?

Yes I am saying that the pressure placed on King George after being forced to assume his brothers role, placed him in an early grave.
Queen Elizabeth was brought up to be a future Queen. Albert was not.

 

[olebabs]

From what I have read in various book on King Edward VIII, it seems to me that he was not interested in being king at all, and so one can conclude that Wallis was simply an excuse. I do not however doubt that he loved her.

 

[Osipi]

Yes I am saying that the pressure placed on King George after being forced to assume his brothers role, placed him in an early grave.
Queen Elizabeth was brought up to be a future Queen. Albert was not.

I have to agree with you here. The pressure was great on Bertie especially during the WWII years. It is a known fact that King George died from lung cancer and that he was a heavy smoker but I can attest also as a smoker myself, during times of stress I do reach for a smoke a lot more than I would during times of no stress. Stress even for non smokers has a detrimental effect on health.

I find it very plausible that QEQM would lay the blame for an early death on the stresses of unexpectedly becoming monarch. Even so, they both did a wonderful job during the war years.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

It seems the late Queen Mother was such a vindictive person who hated the Duchess of Windsor to the end (and scorned the fact that Mrs Simpson was twice divorced etc), that it is "ironic" and "fitting" that she was alive to witness the demise of the marriages of her daughter, Margaret, and her grandchildren, Charles, Andrew, and Anne.

Ouch, Blue Sky, that seems to be a harsh assessment. I think that when the Duke died, or maybe it was when the Duchess died, the Queen Mother was quoted as saying that the two loved one another and had a successful marriage. this does not sound like a vindictive person to me.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Well perhaps it is just irony, one of the greatest love stories of the 20th century never resulted in children; and the Queen Mother who was part of the faction who disliked Wallis Simpson because she was divorced, ended seeing her daughter divorced and three of her grandchildren divorced.