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  #81  
Old 05-15-2011, 06:33 AM
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I admit, one of the reasons I like Wallis is she wouldn't confirm to old school British monarchy ways and didn't apologize for being who she was. Usually when I read books about Wallis and Edward or books about the monarchy in general there is some comment about "those Americans" and it pisses me off. That an American made a bunch of these people so sore does give me some pleasure. Especially if one of the reasons said American isn't liked is because she "doesn't know her place"
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  #82  
Old 05-15-2011, 06:37 AM
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I saw the movie the King's Speech. Whether we agree with it or not, the Queen Mother was looking after the interests of the royal family. The Queen Mother I believe was very protective of her family and felt like Wallis was a threat to the family or a threat to the crown. British royalty had a very rigid code of do's and don't (to a certain degree they still do). Those who didn't fit into that code or who didn't understand the culture of British royalty would have a rough time with it. You're average person would have a lot of difficulty with it and probably would have difficulty coping with it.
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  #83  
Old 05-15-2011, 09:12 AM
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The British monarchy lives a life of privilage, paid for, in part, by a duty of service to people and country. For many decades now our monarchs have paid that duty in exemplary way, probably sometimes at the expence of personal life-there's no such thing as a free lunch for any of us. Our present Queen, at 85, still carries out the promises she made as a young woman and clearly knows the meaning of duty and responsibility, she learned both from Grandparents and parents. I really don't feel that Wallis understood either of these things and she would have needed to in order to have encouraged David who certainly comprehended neither, we are given many instances of him letting people down because something of greater interest had caught his attention.
As to the QMs relationship with W, leaving aside the times when Wallis behaved discourteously and disrespectfully, where was there ever any common ground? The QMs private world was about cosy domesticity, Ws was all brittle sophistication, country society meets cafe society. However, if we look beneath the surface we can find similarities. Both are
strong women and both have weak men.....and IMO, both enabled those men to become as good as it was possible for each to be.
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  #84  
Old 05-15-2011, 11:42 PM
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And look who came out on top -- Elizabeth, the Queen Mother. She at least ended her long life surrounded by family and beloved by her people. Wallis died a recluse, kept prisoner and kept away from everyone who might have had a decent feeling towards her. I am glad she was buried next to the Duke of Windsor and I am glad she existed because without her, who knows what may have happened to the monarchy.

Both women had very important roles to play but I believe that Queen Elizabeth was the better of the two. And I am a proud American.
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  #85  
Old 05-16-2011, 01:21 AM
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Both women had very important roles to play but I believe that Queen Elizabeth was the better of the two. And I am a proud American.
And a well educated one at that! Whenever I mention Wallis, or the Duchess of Windsor or the Queen Mother to Mr. Russo and other Americans they get this rather glassy eyed appearance. . . .
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  #86  
Old 05-16-2011, 02:48 AM
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I wouldn't put Elizabeth in the same category as the other two women. Both Wallis and Camilla had extramarital affairs.

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Wallis and Elizabeth remind me of Camilla; someone who completely understands her man and is mother, lover, friend, teacher, and helpmate to them.
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  #87  
Old 05-16-2011, 01:00 PM
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And a well educated one at that! Whenever I mention Wallis, or the Duchess of Windsor or the Queen Mother to Mr. Russo and other Americans they get this rather glassy eyed appearance. . . .
Russo my dear,

Thank you But we royal fanatics seem to be a highly specialized breed, so let's be tolerant of the lesser mortals

But all kidding aside, although I am not quite the religious person I used to be in my youth, I do believe in destiny and Wallis Simpson and Queen Elizabeth had their respective roles to play in the abdication drama of 1936.
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  #88  
Old 06-04-2011, 07:18 PM
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Two women, two very different characters, both not exactly beauties but stylish in each of their own respects. The Queen Mother was homely and elegent, where Mrs. Simpson was chic and glamorous. I think the Queen Mother was far too self assured to be intimidated by her as a woman but as an influence, and not a good one, to her brother- in- law she was very upset and jarred by this brash outsider in the way most who have grown up with that deference to the crown feel about outside influences. They were always cordial (on the Queen Mother's end at least) and I know of only one instance when, as Duchess of York, she snubbed Mrs. Simpson at Balmoral saying "I came to dine with the king" and swept past Mrs. Simpson. Maybe there was another time I could be wrong.
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  #89  
Old 06-04-2011, 10:11 PM
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In all of the books, posts etc. that I have read over the years I have never found the fact that Wallis was an American as a primary cause of contention. More that she was totally unsuitable (Divorces and lovers) which I think society thought Americans were all totally OK with what they saw as licentious behaviour.

As to the "didn't know her place", she took liberties in behaving as his Consort (let's just chop down all those old trees and have a better view) instead of his Mistress, and that David was the King and yet she treated him like a not too bright dog in public. That hurt!

On a personal level Wallis publicly made fun of the Duchess of York, calling her Cookie in a derogatory way as she found her totally boring and without style. It must be said, at that time the Duchess of York was a happy homemaker and dressed expensively but with no great sense of style but, if the stories of their first encounter are true (Wallis caught imitating her publicly at a party), there would be absolutely no chance of any accommodation, let alone friendship.
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  #90  
Old 06-04-2011, 10:15 PM
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Two women, two very different characters, both not exactly beauties but stylish in each of their own respects. The Queen Mother was homely and elegent, where Mrs. Simpson was chic and glamorous. I think the Queen Mother was far too self assured to be intimidated by her as a woman but as an influence, and not a good one, to her brother- in- law she was very upset and jarred by this brash outsider in the way most who have grown up with that deference to the crown feel about outside influences. They were always cordial (on the Queen Mother's end at least) and I know of only one instance when, as Duchess of York, she snubbed Mrs. Simpson at Balmoral saying "I came to dine with the king" and swept past Mrs. Simpson. Maybe there was another time I could be wrong.
My dear PGM,

Where did you read that the QM and Wallis met at Balmoral? I thought they only met once before the Abdication, at a skating party held at Fort Belvedere while Edward was still the Prince of Wales. Then they met again many years later I believe for the dedication of some memorial to Queen Mary and of course the Duke of Windsor's funeral. I would love to read the account of the meeting at Balmoral.
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  #91  
Old 06-04-2011, 10:50 PM
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Wallis and Elizabeth did meet at Balmoral.

Edward was already King. The King was going to Balmoral after Ascot, but couldn't do an engagement in Aerdeen becomes he was mourning, and instead sent Bertie and Elizabeth (because mourning didn't apply to both brothers). And while he couldn't do the Abderdeen engaement, he did drive to the rail station to pick up Wallis and the Rogers (Herman and Katherine). While George and a pregnant Marina came at a rail station that wasn't so close to Balmoral and waited to be picked up, but this wasn't good enough for Wallis (Davids fault IMO). So Also, the King didn't invite the Archbishop of Canterbury (because he knew how the Archbishiop felt about David, Wallis and their relationship). Instead the Archbiship stayed with the Yorks.

This is the time frame that Wallis acted as the hostess, and Elizabeth did her "I came to dine with the King" speech.

They met the first time the pre wedding event for George and Marina, where some thought that Wallis attempted to upstage the bride to be (with her attire and jewels). They also met a Royal Lodge where Wallis made suggestions to their garden (taking down the trees and moving part of the hill for a better view) with David. After popping without a proper invitation (though I think that is more David's fault than Wallis), but again it was viewed as a power play as the Yorks lived at the grace and favor Royal Lodge as a courtesy of the King. And making a suggestion about their graden, was viewed as I have the power to change aspects of your home and you can't do anything about it.
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  #92  
Old 06-04-2011, 11:09 PM
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Hi Zonk,

I thought Royal Lodge was given to the Yorks by George V when they were first married...
Perhaps as a 'grace & favour home' - but I don't know....

Didn't the Queen Mother will it to Andrew, the present Duke of York?
Would she have been able to do this if it was 'g&f???

Can you set me straight?

Larry
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  #93  
Old 06-05-2011, 12:02 AM
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My dear Zonk,

What is the source material for these meetings? I am not challenging you but after reading the Queen Mother's biography where none of this is mentioned, I want to read more about meetings between the then Duchess of York and Wallis Simpson. The biography by Shawcross mentions Edward picking up Wallis and the Rogerses at the Aberdeen station the same time the Duke and Duchess of York opened the Aberdeen Infirmary but mentions nothing of the "I am here to dine with the King" speech or that the two women met at that time.
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  #94  
Old 06-05-2011, 02:56 AM
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In all of the books, posts etc. that I have read over the years I have never found the fact that Wallis was an American as a primary cause of contention. More that she was totally unsuitable (Divorces and lovers) which I think society thought Americans were all totally OK with what they saw as licentious behaviour.
That's quite hypocritical of sociey since Duff Cooper, Lady Diana's husband was carrying on with Louise de Vilmorin (with her consent) and Oswald Mosley was carrying on with Baba Metcalfe (who was married to Fruity, the Duke of Windsor's buddy) while he was carrying on with a divorced Diana Mitford Guiness.
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Old 06-05-2011, 04:47 AM
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Oh it's totally unfair. But Duff Cooper and Oswald Mosely weren't the Prince of Wales and their sexploits were not the subject of Parliamentary debate or FBI surveillance.

More importantly, Louise de Vilmorin, Baba Metcalfe and Diana Mitford Guiness were not potential Princesses of Wales or worse, Queen!

As we know it is appearances that count and the PoW and Wallis were anything but discreet.
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  #96  
Old 06-05-2011, 05:00 AM
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Russophile, wasn't it ever thus- one rule for them, something quite different for us.
VM, your fellow expert Zonk is correct about the meeting places. Whilst I'm very poor at remembering the titles of books, I think I may have come across a line in the book written by David which told of driving the new car-an American station wagon?-to show Bertie- who "showed more interest in it than in my other American interest." Perhaps it was during this visit that Wallis suggested moving the trees and if that statement is looked at more closely, it rather hints at a deliberate attempt on Wallis' part to undermine Elizabeth in her own home. The animosity between the two women must have crackled and whilst I can understand where Elizabeth was coming from I find it more difficult to understand Wallis' motives.
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Old 06-05-2011, 06:17 AM
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Where Wallis was coming from? I suspect she saw herself as de facto Princess of Wales initially and soon to be Queen later. Thus putting "Cookie" in her place as wife to her lover's heir was probably the best way of "sticking it to" this woman who epitomised everything that Wallis wasn't, current Royal womanhood.

The dowdy Duchess of York's automatic entre into high society, should she ever have bothered to exercise it, must have grated on Wallis who had elegance, wit and style but was only accepted there because she was the Prince of Wales lover.
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  #98  
Old 06-05-2011, 06:31 AM
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a royal bride had to be a virgin; if a married woman had a discreed affair - that is one thing (if there is no doubt about who fathered the heir ) but carrying on openly quite another .. Diana Mitford WAS a scandal - ;

Discreed = as long as it's not in the press - if it's only known in their own circle everything else = scandal = no royal bride
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Old 06-05-2011, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos View Post
My dear Zonk,

What is the source material for these meetings? I am not challenging you but after reading the Queen Mother's biography where none of this is mentioned, I want to read more about meetings between the then Duchess of York and Wallis Simpson. The biography by Shawcross mentions Edward picking up Wallis and the Rogerses at the Aberdeen station the same time the Duke and Duchess of York opened the Aberdeen Infirmary but mentions nothing of the "I am here to dine with the King" speech or that the two women met at that time.
Not a problem. I have read it in a couple of different sourcs, The Reluctant King By Sarah Bradford deals with the Balmoral meeting between the Duchess of York and Mrs. Wallis Simpson, from pages 170 to 173. Her source is The Royal Feud by Michael Thornton, where I read the same account.

Key Points:

*Tension between the Yorks and Wallis reached its hight point for far in Balmoral in late September. It was the last time they met socially (as George VI died in 51, so it was the last time the four were together). The Yorks stayed at Birkhall (now owned by Prince of Wales).

*Edward picked Wallis and the Rogers up at Abderdeen Station. The King drove 60 miles into the city to pick up Wallis. Into a city that at that very moment the Yorks were doing an engagement on his behalf because he was mourning. His picture made front page news. According to reports, both Scotland and the Yorks were outraged.

*Wallis was installed in rooms that had been used by Queen Mary for 25 years. According to guests, Wallis went out of her way to exert her power and vex the Family, sending the King out the room to order champagne (shown in The Kings Speech) while she was playign bridge, showing them around the house, saying this "tartan has to go," suggesting improvements of the royal plate and the placing of furniture.

*According to the book, he also handed her state documents to read in front of their guests.

*Dinner party was held on September 26, 1936, as Elizabeth enetered the drawing room ahead of her husband, Wallis came forward to greet her. Court etiquette at the time (not sure how it is now) decreees that royalty should be greeted by the official host or hostess, which in this case was Edward, not Wallis. Wallis could have been ignorant of this convention, or pehaps more likely in view of her previous behavior with the Yorks, it was, as an observer put it, a deliberate and calcuated display of power. The Duchess recognized it as such, walked straight past Wallis, and said "as if to no one in paricular," I came to dine with the King." The Duke of York looked embarassed, the King starled, broke off a conversation and came to greet his brother and sister in law. At dinner, Wallis sat at the head of the table, but the Duchess of York without a glance at Wallis led the women from the table at the end of dinner.
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Old 06-05-2011, 07:24 AM
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It's not hard to imagine how Elizabeth would be angry and resentful towards Wallis for imposing the burden of the throne on her and her husband, even though her brother-in-law was most responsible for refusing to let her go. She felt Wallis was not an honourable woman and was out for herself. When her husband died in 1952, she became bitter about his early death and blamed Wallis and Edward.

She did ease her bitterness and anger over time, but never wavered in her view that Wallis was "the lowest of the low".
Another documentary has just been screened on Australian television, with all the FBI information on Wallis and Edwards' activities during World War II. Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother despised Wallis because she was not just a Nazi sympathiser, but an active spy, through her affair with a German diplomat which continued during WWII. The only thing the UK could do with W&E was to send them to the Bahamas and keep a close eye on them. Wallis and Edward nearly cost the British and Americans the war - they leaked vital tactical information. Edward was actively conspiring to return to Britain as a Nazi puppet king. It's all on the record. Anyone who thinks the mother of the current reigning Queen of England would bother to despise Wallis Simpson over a bit of protocol is vastly underestimating her character.
(By the way, I trust that Madonna's movie W.E. which glorifies these anti-semitic Nazis will be a big fail.)
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