Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[Iluvbertie]

I have a question about the future titles of the children of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge.

They will take on their father's senior title - so on the death of the Queen they will become 'of Cornwall and Cambridge' (based on the precedent of George V, whose children went from 'of York' to 'of Cornwall and York' in 1901). When, and if Charles creates William Prince of Wales the children would then take 'of Wales' because Prince of Wales is the more senior title to 'Duke of Cornwall' which is senior to 'Duke of Cambridge'. George V's children became 'of Wales' when their father was created Prince of Wales in November 1901.

Just a note - William and Kate's dauthers, under the existing Letters Patent, won't be HRH Princess xxxx as only his eldest son currently will get the HRH Prince title from birth and the others will be titles as the children of a Duke Lord/Lady Mountbatten-Windsor. Then on Charles accession they will become HRH Prince/Princesses.

Of course the Queen could issue new LPs creating all of William's children HRH from birth.
.

 

[Baroness of Books]

What if the eldest child is a girl - would she get the HRH and her sisters the title of ladies? Or would that have to be changed with a new LP?

 

[wbenson]

It would have to be changed. Right now, it's only the eldest son.

 

[Iluvbertie]

It would take new LPs to give any daughter of William and Kate the HRH Princess title.

Currently the LPs in play are the 1917 LPs which state that the HRHs are - the children of the monarch, the male line grandchildren of the monarch and the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales.

This means currently:

Children of the monarch - Charles, Anne, Andrew and Edward.

Male line grandchildren of the monarch - The Duke of Gloucester The Duke of Kent Prince Michael of Kent Princess Alexandra (male line grandchildren of George V), The Duke of Cambridge, Prince Henry of Wales, Princess Beatrice of York, Princess Eugenie of York (male line grandchildren of Elizabeth II) and then there is Louise and James who aren't using it and there has been debate as to whether or not the announcements from BP were sufficient to deprive them of that title.

Notice that none of the children of Princess Mary, Princess Margaret or Princess Anne (all children of monarchs) have the HRH because they are the children of girls - so no HRH for them. Only males are good enough to pass on the HRH.

When Elizabeth II was pregnant with Charles special LPs were given to allow all her children to be born HRH otherwise Charles would have been born Lord Charles Mountbatten, Earl of Merioneth (a curtesy title from his father) and Anne would have been Lady Anne Mountbatten.

So any girl - regardless of being the eldest child simply doesn't qualify at the moment for HRH - new LPs needed or she would be born Lady xxxx Mountbatten-Windsor while her younger brother would be born HRH Prince yyyy of Cambridge.

 

[yvr girl]

What about if the law is changed so that the eldest inherits regardless of gender? The spirit of the eldest son of the eldest son LP is that the direct heir would be an HRH. What if the direct heir is a girl? (Assuming no other laws or conditions have been ammended.)

 

[branchg]

I think it's highly likely The Queen will issue Letters Patent providing that all of William and Catherine's children will be HRH Prince/Princess of the UK at birth.

With the change to succession to the throne providing a first-born daughter will take precedence over a son (which is effective for William's issue), it would make sense.

 

[Excalibur]

I think it's highly likely The Queen will issue Letters Patent providing that all of William and Catherine's children will be HRH Prince/Princess of the UK at birth.

With the change to succession to the throne providing a first-born daughter will take precedence over a son (which is effective for William's issue), it would make sense.

But is there any need to do this? In the normal course of events, would the children not be "elevated" to HRH once Charles ascends the throne?

 

[PrincessKaimi]

The children of Prince William will not be children of a monarch when Charles is on the throne, and the HRH passes only to male line grandchildren, IIRC (see ILuvBertie's post above).

 

[HRHHermione]

The children of Prince William will not be children of a monarch when Charles is on the throne, and the HRH passes only to male line grandchildren, IIRC (see ILuvBertie's post above).

That's not an issue here. A daughter of William's is still a male line grandchild. See: Beatrice, Eugenie.

 

[MagMil]

That's not an issue here. A daughter of William's is still a male line grandchild. See: Beatrice, Eugenie.

Yes,if the daughter is born when Prince Charles would become a king.Otherwise it will be just a great-granddaughter of the current monarch,QE2

 

[HRHHermione]

Yes,if the daughter is born when Prince Charles would become a king.Otherwise it will be just a great-granddaughter of the current monarch,QE2

Indeed. And maybe there will be letters patent changing that... but I can't see a real need for it. The eldest would have an HRH and the others would be Lord/Lady until Charles is king. Even if the Queen lives to be as old as the Queen Mother and William has children very, very soon, they'd be Princes/Princesses by the time they were teenagers.

It might even be better for them to have lower titles as children- help keep the hype around them down as much as possible and maybe help give them a more normal childhood for as long as possible.

 

[MagMil]

Indeed. And maybe there will be letters patent changing that... but I can't see a real need for it. The eldest would have an HRH and the others would be Lord/Lady until Charles is king. Even if the Queen lives to be as old as the Queen Mother and William has children very, very soon, they'd be Princes/Princesses by the time they were teenagers.

It might even be better for them to have lower titles as children- help keep the hype around them down as much as possible and maybe help give them a more normal childhood for as long as possible.

yup I agree. That would be the best IMO,like Lady Louise and James,Viscount Severn

 

[Iluvbertie]

William's eldest son will be born an HRH. The only problem would be if they have a girl first and then a son with no changes to the current LPs - as the girl would be born Lady while the son would be HRH.

The relevant legislation is still some way away - I heard something about 4 or more years before any changes will be finished so this issue is still relevant.

 

[branchg]

The Queen could also decide to wait and see. If Catherine produces a daughter as her first-born, The Queen could simply declare the child as HRH Princess X in the birth announcement.

 

[Iluvbertie]

The Queen could also decide to wait and see. If Catherine produces a daughter as her first-born, The Queen could simply declare the child as HRH Princess X in the birth announcement.

Given modern technology I wouldn't be at all surprised if they know the sex of the child before it is born so that the Queen can be prepared to issue the relevant LPs, if necessary - do nothing if it is a boy but issue the LPs at the birth if it is a girl.

 

[Baroness of Books]

That would be very odd if the older female child is the heir to the throne with the lower title than a younger brother who gets the HRH and doesn't inherit. I'd guess that they'll just have to see as the children come along "who's on first" to rework the title issue or just take advantage of that modern technology to be prepared.

 

[branchg]

That would be very odd if the older female child is the heir to the throne with the lower title than a younger brother who gets the HRH and doesn't inherit.

That's why I think The Queen will either issue Letters Patent or simply declare once Catherine becomes pregnant that all of William's children will be HRH Prince/Princess X.

Given that a first-born daughter will take precedence in the succession, the current 1917 Letters Patent granting the eldest son of the eldest son of The Prince of Wales the style of HRH Prince X are archaic.

William's children will become male-line grandchildren of The King and are next in-line to the throne. There is also the possibility they would be the children of The Sovereign if Charles predeceases The Queen. So, there's really no reason not to grant them royal rank at birth.

 

[Baroness of Books]

It does makes sense to change the LPs at this point since it's a fait accompli what the standing of William's children will be in the succession and to entitle them all as HRH.

 

[zembla]

This has probably been asked a lot, but it has been bugging me. If Diana and Charles had a daughter...what would her title have been?

 

[Kataryn]

This has probably been asked a lot, but it has been bugging me. If Diana and Charles had a daughter...what would her title have been?

HRH Princess X of Wales, then after Charles ascent to the throne HRH The Princess X and maybe one day after Anne's death HRH The Princess Royal.

 

[Britters]

So, when Charles ascends and William is made PoW (again I'm assuming!), they will become Prince and Princess of Wales and their children will stop being ____ of Cambridge and become ____ of Wales. How confusing!!!

 

[NGalitzine]

HRH Prince William of Wales > HRH the Duke of Cambridge > HRH The Duke of Cornwall & Cambridge > HRH The Prince of Wales > HM The King should be his progress through the ranks if all goes well.

 

[Sister Morphine]

So, when Charles ascends and William is made PoW (again I'm assuming!), they will become Prince and Princess of Wales and their children will stop being ____ of Cambridge and become ____ of Wales. How confusing!!!

You're mostly right, but it depends on the gender of the children. If William and Catherine have children during the present Queen's reign, only their eldest son will have a title. He'd be HRH Prince X of Cambridge. All other children will be Lord/Lady X Cambridge. That's due to Letters Patent from George V. When Charles becomes King, all of their children then become HRH Prince/Princess X of Cornwall and Cambridge. When William becomes Prince of Wales, they'd be HRH Prince/Princess X of Wales, just like their father and uncle were.

It's really not confusing, it's just a matter of following the order of titles that William will eventually either inherit or be given. The next title up ahead is Duke of Cornwall, as that is immediately inherited upon the assumption of the new monarch. May he not see it for many more years, but still.

 

[Mermaid1962]

To continue with the theme, King William's children will be HRH The Prince/Princess ________

 

[LadyGabrielle]

Boy is this confusing. Im assuming the children would be HRH Prince/Princess of Wales since William would be King?

 

[Baroness of Books]

William's children would only be know as HRH Prince XXXX/Princess XXXX of Wales if he is Prince of Wales. Prince Harry is "of Wales" since Charles is currently The Prince of Wales. Only when William becomes king will his children be known as HRH The Prince XXXX or HRH The Princess XXXX.

And I hope I'm right with this analysis.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

Ugh, I feel like such a moron asking this, but after reading this thread I got really interested in this.
Lets say that William and Kate first has a daughter and then a son, will the daughter be Princess of Cambridge or will that title go to her younger brother and she'll "just" be Lady Cambridge because of that Letters Patent thing?

 

[NGalitzine]

A first born daughter, going by the 1917 Letters Patent, would be Lady X Mountbatten-Windsor (not Cambridge), although one would expect The Queen to raise her to HRH Princess X of Cambridge given recent discussions allowing a first born daughter to succeed to the throne ahead of later born sons.

 

[PrincePatrick]

I'm gonna try posting this here now, because I didn't get any responses in the Gay thread...

If Harry were gay, or say one of William's sons is gay and he (or in the case of Harry, Charles) were king, do you think the male partner would receive a title upon marriage? Would they use a lesser title of the royal son? Like Harry would be Duke of Clarence and his partner would be Earl of Wherever? Or do you think that Harry would be given two Dukedoms, say Clarence and Avondale, and one would use Clarence and the other would use Avondale, but their children (permitting new LP's are passed to say that surrugate children are royal) would be of Clarence and Avondale? I know it's kinda out there, but I'm just curious what people think would happen.

 

[windsorgirl]

I think it would be like the Prince Gustav/ Carina Axelsson situation in Denmark (but for different reasons, obviously) whereby they would not marry but would be accepted at social functions and within the family as though they were, thus sidestepping the title issue altogether. If they did marry, I don't see a title being conferred to the spouse...rather, The Duke of X and Mr. Thus and Such, sort of like Mark Phillips and Tim Laurence, who didn't get titles or refused them.

Added: I suppose the ideal situation would be if the spouse were already titled before marriage!