Questions About Titles

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Australian

So, when Edward and Sophie become the Duke and Duchess of Edingburgh, what will happen to their current title of Earl and Countess of Wessex? Does it get passed on or will it be kept as an additional title for Edward and Sophie? Or will the Wessex title become defunct?

They still would remain The Earl and Countess of Wessex, but their styles as The Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh would take precedence as a higher rank in the Peerage.

Charles would create his brother the 1st Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn. So, his earldom would become a secondary style, used by his son, James, as his new courtesy title (assuming he does not assume his birthright title and rank as HRH Prince James).

[Warren]

Posts discussing possible titles for William and Harry have been moved to the William & Harry and wives titles thread.

[wymanda]

Am I right in assuming that if Prince Andrew does not take a second wife and have a son, Prince Edward is heir to the Dukedom of York and, in the future, could well become Duke of Edinburgh & York?

[branchg]

No, it was created to pass through "male heirs of body". If he doesn't remarry and have a son, it will become extinct after his death.

[Royal Fan]

I Wonder if its possible Prince Henry getting it ?

[Elspeth]

Originally Posted by branchg

No, it was created to pass through "male heirs of body". If he doesn't remarry and have a son, it will become extinct after his death.

That's correct. Unlike regular dukedoms, royal dukedoms aren't inherited by brothers in the absence of sons. If George VI hadn't become King, the Duke of York title would have become extinct on his death, it wouldn't have passed to the Duke of Gloucester.

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by Royal Fan

I Wonder if its possible Prince Henry getting it ?

Possible but highly unlikely.

For it to be available for Harry to get it Andrew would have to die before Harry is given a dukedom in his own right.

It is possible that something similar to the situation with the Edinburgh title could happen with Harry initially getting an Earldom on the understanding that when Andrew died either Harry's grandmother, father or brother will then create him Duke of York but he could be waiting for a very long time then to become a Duke as Andrew is only 24 years older than Harry. Andrew has the same long living genes as his siblings and could easily live another 40 years and that would have Harry waiting to become a royal duke into his 60s.

It is far more likely that Harry will get a Dukedom of his own at marriage and the York title will become extinct in its current creation on Andrew's death and be available for William's second son or possibly William's heir's second son.

Of course the government could, when it inevitably decides to even up inheritance to the throne between the sexes, also pass legislation to allow for the same inheritance rights for women to all titles not just the crown and thus York would pass to Beatrice.

[branchg]

I doubt The Queen will grant dukedoms to William or Harry anytime soon. More likely, she would create them Earls upon marriage, with Charles conferring a dukedom on Harry once he is King. William will automatically be Duke of Cornwall.

[Lady Marmalade]

I think, given William's status as the first son to the heir, he will be created a royal duke upon his marriage.

[Mermaid1962]

So then what would happen when he becomes Duke of Cornwall? Would he be Duke of Cornwall and...for example, Cambridge? Or would the Duke of Cornwall title supercede another Dukedom?

Originally Posted by Lady Marmalade

I think, given William's status as the first son to the heir, he will be created a royal duke upon his marriage.

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by Mermaid1962

So then what would happen when he becomes Duke of Cornwall? Would he be Duke of Cornwall and...for example, Cambridge? Or would the Duke of Cornwall title supercede another Dukedom?

It would be the same situation that George V was in in 1901 when he was known as the Duke of Cornwall and York.

He had been created Duke of York by his grandmother and then inherited Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay when Victoria died. During the majority of that year (except in Scotland where Rothesay is used instead of Cornwall) he was known as the Duke of Cornwall and York.

Those were the titles used to describe him when he opened the first Australian Parliament on 9th May 1901 with his Duchess (later Queen Mary) by his side.

[Velasco]

I have been thinking about the future titles and rank of Queen Elizabeth's descendants.

I don't think Prince William will ever get his "own" title; I think he will merely suceed his father as Duke of Cornwall, Earl of Chester, etc and then be created Prince of Wales.

Harry, however....I believe the most likely ducal titles would be Cambridge or Sussex, which were the two the "experts" predicted for his uncle (although they were later proved wrong when it was announced that the Earl of Wessex would be made Duke of Edinburgh when prince Philip died). However, I would much prefer him to become "Duke of Clarence" or even "Duke of Clarence and Avondale". Not only does it have a better ring to it it was also used in not too distant past by Prince Albert Victor, and further back in time by Prince Lionel (second son of King Edward III).

Also, the Queen's other grandchildren....

When the Duke of York dies, will his eldest daughter inherit the duchy? If so, why is she not permitted use of the courtesy title usually held by the heir? Also, when Beatrice and Eugenie marry, if they were to marry a non-royal, will they lose HRH and royal title? Or is there any possibility of Queen Elizabeth (or whoever is monarch at the time) elevating their husbands-to-be to the rank of Prince (like was done prior to her marriage for Prince Philip, who was temporarily a commoner).

And Viscount Severn, will his children and grandchildren be HRH also?

[wbenson]

Originally Posted by Velasco

When the Duke of York dies, will his eldest daughter inherit the duchy?

No, she won't. The Dukedom of York only passes to heirs male. When Andrew dies, it will become extinct.

From the London Gazette of 23 July 1986. (PDF file)

HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN has been pleased to direct
Letters Patent to be passed under the Great Seal of the
Realm, to bear this day's date, granting unto Her
Majesty's Son, His Royal Highness Prince Andrew
Albert Christian Edward cvo and the heirs male of
his body lawfully begotten, the dignities of BARON
KILLYLEAGH, EARL OF INVERNESS and DUKE OF YORK.

Originally Posted by Velasco

If so, why is she not permitted use of the courtesy title usually held by the heir?

Even if she could inherit it, women don't use courtesy titles. And even if she was a boy, princes don't use courtesy titles.

Originally Posted by Velasco

Also, when Beatrice and Eugenie marry, if they were to marry a non-royal, will they lose HRH and royal title?

No. Princess Alexandra (the most recent royal granddaughter I can think of) didn't when she married a non-royal. (Neither did Princess Anne or Princess Margaret.)

Originally Posted by Velasco

Or is there any possibility of Queen Elizabeth (or whoever is monarch at the time) elevating their husbands-to-be to the rank of Prince (like was done prior to her marriage for Prince Philip, who was temporarily a commoner).

I don't see why not.

Originally Posted by Velasco

And Viscount Severn, will his children and grandchildren be HRH also?

No. Only children and male-line grandchildren of the sovereign are entitled to that.

[Velasco]

Ah, I see.
So there is a chance that the Duchy of York will revert to the Crown and Harry will , in time, be made Duke of York? Nice

However, isn't Viscount Severn a prince? And yet he still uses the courtesy title...how comes?

[wbenson]

His parents decided to pretend he's not, basically. Technically, he's HRH Prince James of Wessex. (And Louise is technically HRH Princess Louise of Wessex).

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by Velasco

Ah, I see.
So there is a chance that the Duchy of York will revert to the Crown and Harry will , in time, be made Duke of York? Nice

However, isn't Viscount Severn a prince? And yet he still uses the courtesy title...how comes?

Harry could only become Duke of York on the death of the present holder of that title, a man who is currently only 48 years old.

In all likelihood Andrew could easily live to 90 meaning Harry would be 66. I suspect that Harry would get his own dukedom sometime before that.

[wbenson]

Has any royal ever been given a peerage when there are still others using that designation in their style? (What I mean is, is it likely that someone would ever be created, for example, Duke of York when there are still children of the previous holder called Prince(ss) N of York around?)

[kimebear]

Not likely. There are no shortages of old titles that can be used or new ones created.

[Mermaid1962]

Oh yes...I forgot about that situation. Thank you for reminding me.

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

It would be the same situation that George V was in in 1901 when he was known as the Duke of Cornwall and York.

He had been created Duke of York by his grandmother and then inherited Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay when Victoria died. During the majority of that year (except in Scotland where Rothesay is used instead of Cornwall) he was known as the Duke of Cornwall and York.

Those were the titles used to describe him when he opened the first Australian Parliament on 9th May 1901 with his Duchess (later Queen Mary) by his side.

[Elspeth]

If Beatrice and Eugenie marry at anything like a normal age, there won't be any "of York" descendants around anyway. I doubt Harry would be created Duke of York while the Queen was still alive, even if he married. He'd maybe get an earldom and then be created Duke of York by his father after Beatrice and Eugenie were both married and no longer using "of York."