Questions About Titles

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfCanada

Wrong. She would be (presuming Wills is created PoW) HRH The Princess of Wales, same as Diana was. Diana was never known as Princess Charles of Wales.

Unless the Queen or Charles die, the title is held by Charles. William cannot be The Prince of Wales while ever HM and Charles are alive. So unless William is going to wait for HM to die before marrying anyone, his wife will be Princess William of Wales.

[PrinceOfCanada]

Originally Posted by Skydragon

Unless the Queen or Charles die, the title is held by Charles. William cannot be The Prince of Wales while ever HM and Charles are alive. So unless William is going to wait for HM to die before marrying anyone, his wife will be Princess William of Wales.

Please to be noting the part where I said (bolded for emphasis):

She would be (presuming Wills is created PoW) HRH The Princess of Wales

That sort of presupposes HM's (hopefully far-away) death and Charles' accession.

[ghost_night554]

Originally Posted by Skydragon

Thank you for the pictures Keira, although I would point out that Catherine will not be the Princess of Wales.

Could you explain how come? Is it some agreement they came to after Diana's death or is it more just like a rule I dunno how to explain it. I'm not really good at figuring who gets what title.

[LOSSEAN]

Originally Posted by ghost_night554

Could you explain how come? Is it some agreement they came to after Diana's death or is it more just like a rule I dunno how to explain it. I'm not really good at figuring who gets what title.

If Kate marries Prince William, she will only become Princess of Wales when Prince Charles ascends the throne and when Prince William is officially made the Prince of Wales.

Right now the real Princess of Wales is Camilla but she preferred to take the secondary title of Duchess of Cornwall (Prince Cahrles is also the Duke of Cornwall) because the members of the public generally still link the title to the late Diana.

[ghost_night554]

Originally Posted by LOSSEAN

If Kate marries Prince William, she will only become Princess of Wales when Prince Charles ascends the throne and when Prince William is officially made the Prince of Wales.

Right now the real Princess of Wales is Camilla but she preferred to take the secondary title of Duchess of Cornwall (Prince Cahrles is also the Duke of Cornwall) because the members of the public generally still link the title to the late Diana.

Ya that's what I thought so then technically she will eventually someday be Princess of Wales. I know it's rightfully Camilla's title but I just can't bring myself to call her that, not cause I don't like her or anything I'm way past that it just sounds weird to me.

[randomlyKeira]

Originally Posted by Skydragon

Thank you for the pictures Keira, although I would point out that Catherine will not be the Princess of Wales.

Were you being literal or just mean? Because if Kate were to marry Wills she would eventually become the Princess of Wales. She woudl initially be the Duchess of something (I've heard it was going to be Duke and Duchess of Cambridge for Wills), but when Charles becomes King Wills would become Prince of Wales, making his wife Princess of Wales... Right?

[LadyCat]

If Charles follows British Royal family tradition, William will be the next Prince of Wales once Charles is King. However, it does not appear likely that Harry will be the Duke of York (the title historically given to the second son of the reigning monarch). It is for Charles to decide whether or not to follow tradition once he has the throne. Somehow I think he probably will.

Cat

[Elspeth]

A person can always hope...

[PrinceOfCanada]

Titles are the exclusive province of the Monarch. It certainly will be his choice. Whether it's politically expedient or not is another matter.

And I wouldn't really say 'vast' numbers. Republicanism in the UK sits around 18%, if memory served--a number that hasn't changed since 1965 or something.

And I was replying to this post originally, which is concerned with the near future, not a dot in the future.

Which really, really doesn't matter. It is overwhelmingly likely that yes, she will be HRH T PoW one day.

[BeatrixFan]

Not quite. She'll be HRH The Duchess of Y.

[Avalon]

Indeed, she would be HRH X, Duchess of Y. Thanks for correcting Beatrixfan!

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by Avalon

Indeed, she would be HRH X, Duchess of Y. Thanks for correcting Beatrixfan!

She will be simply HRH The Duchess of Y. But she will have the privilege of signing her letters only with her first name.

There was a vivid discussion when the Duke of York in 1923 wanted to marry a non-royal who was "only" an earl's daughter about the questiuon if this mere earl's daughter should have the same rights as the women born Royal. They even looked intensively into the past to Lady Anne Hyde and tried to figure out if back then there were rules on how Lady Anne signed after her marriage into the Royal family but they couldn't find consistent proof that the people back then had even thought about that.

So they advised HM to follow the rule that a wife takes her rank from her husband, thus Lady Elizabthe Bowes-Lyon was considered Royal after her marriage and signed herself only "Elizabeth" and not "Elizabeth York" like a peeress who takes her first name plus the name part of her husband's/her own title.

[wbenson]

She wouldn't be X except in popular culture.

[branchg]

Technically, she would sign her name as "Elizabeth, Duchess of York" as the wife of a Peer. Because she was marrying a son of the Sovereign, it was agreed she automatically took the rank of her husband as HRH and a princess ("HRH The Princess Albert"). She then would sign her name as "Elizabeth".

Ironically, when this question arose again with the marriage of Edward and Wallis, the Government found it convenient to overlook this conclusion reached in 1923 and state "royal rank was at the discretion of the Sovereign" and not automatic.

[PrinceOfCanada]

Originally Posted by branchg

Technically, she would sign her name as "Elizabeth, Duchess of York" as the wife of a Peer. Because she was marrying a son of the Sovereign, it was agreed she automatically took the rank of her husband as HRH and a princess ("HRH The Princess Albert"). She then would sign her name as "Elizabeth".

My understanding is that peers & peeresses are all entitled to sign with their first name only.

Ironically, when this question arose again with the marriage of Edward and Wallis, the Government found it convenient to overlook this conclusion reached in 1923 and state "royal rank was at the discretion of the Sovereign" and not automatic.

That's not really irony, it's expediency. That being said, the monarchy has always reserved to itself the right to grant or deny titles, styles, and rank.

[Warren]

Here's something interesting...
From Royal Insight, May 2005:

Can you please give us more information on the life of Princess Mary, daughter of King George V and Queen Mary?

Princess Mary was born on April 25, 1897 at York Cottage on the Sandringham Estate in Norfolk, England.

Her father was His Royal Highness Prince George, Duke of York (later King George V), the second eldest son of King Edward VII. Her mother was Her Royal Highness The Duchess of York (later Queen Mary), the only daughter of The Duke of Teck.

As a great-granddaughter of Queen Victoria, Mary was styled Her Highness Princess Mary of York from birth.

[my bolding] From her birth in 1897 to the death of Queen Victoria on 22 January 1901 Princess Mary was a "mere" HH. Did this lesser style apply only to females, or were her brothers Princes Albert and Henry also HHs for a short time, while the eldest son, Edward, was an HRH?

We are familiar with the Letters Patent of 1917 stipulating who holds the HRH, but what was the situation prior to that revision? Edward VII in 1905 raised his granddaughters Ladies Alexandra and Maud Duff to the rank of Princess with the style of Highness, and Prince Alastair of Connaught was an HH Prince of Great Britain and Ireland from his birth in 1914 until 1917. The only other cases I can recall of the use of HH (albeit after George V's Letters Patent) are the Princesses Helena Victoria and Marie Louise who relinquished their German titles of Schleswig-Holstein and Anhalt respectively in 1917 to become HH Princesses [of nothing].

[cmkrcwi]

Wasn't the son of Prince and Princess Arthur of Connaught briefly known as "HH Prince Alistair of Connaught"?

[Warren]

Yes, I've mentioned Prince Alastair in the second line of the last paragraph.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Warren

From her birth in 1897 to the death of Queen Victoria on 22 January 1901 Princess Mary was a "mere" HH. Did this lesser style apply only to females, or were her brothers Princes Albert and Henry also HHs for a short time, while the eldest son, Edward, was an HRH?

We are familiar with the Letters Patent of 1917 stipulating who holds the HRH, but what was the situation prior to that revision? Edward VII in 1905 raised his granddaughters Ladies Alexandra and Maud Duff to the rank of Princess with the style of Highness, and Prince Alastair of Connaught was an HH Prince of Great Britain and Ireland from his birth in 1914 until 1917. The only other cases I can recall of the use of HH (albeit after George V's Letters Patent) are the Princesses Helena Victoria and Marie Louise who relinquished their German titles of Schleswig-Holstein and Anhalt respectively in 1917 to become HH Princesses [of nothing].

Prior to the 1917 Letters Patent, great-grandchildren in the male-line of The Sovereign held the title and style of HH Prince/Princess of Great Britain and Ireland. Grandchildren of The Sovereign in the male-line held the rank of HRH.

Prince Eddy was still alive when The Duke and Duchess of York's children were born, so they only held the rank of Highness as great-grandchildren of Queen Victoria. After his death, Prince George became the spare to the throne after his father, so Queen Victoria issued letters patent granting his children the rank of HRH.

Many of Victoria's female line grandchildren and great-grandchildren held titles and styles granted as members of the blood of German royal houses. After these titles were abolished by the Weimar Republic and George V issued the new letters patent, many of them continued to be granted the courtesy of being known as a Princess, even though they were not British princesses, because they had lived most of their lives in Britain.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by branchg

Prior to the 1917 Letters Patent, great-grandchildren in the male-line of The Sovereign held the title and style of HH Prince/Princess of Great Britain and Ireland. Grandchildren of The Sovereign in the male-line held the rank of HRH.

Prince Eddy was still alive when The Duke and Duchess of York's children were born, so they only held the rank of Highness as great-grandchildren of Queen Victoria. After his death, Prince George became the spare to the throne after his father, so Queen Victoria issued letters patent granting his children the rank of HRH..

Prince Eddy wasn't alive wehen the children of the Duke and Duchess of York were born. He died in 1892 and the future Edward VIII. was born. Also Mary would have married him insteád the future George V. as she was engaged to him.