Questions About Styles and Titles

[An Ard Ri]

Originally Posted by NGalitzine

Yes, but I am not sure if that is only when abroad or if they are styled that way domestically. Does Prince Sverre have any style at all, he is not an HRH.

As per the Norwegian Royal Family site Princesses Märtha Louise,Ragnhild and Astrid all have the style 'Her Highness'.


kongehuset.no - Her Highness Princess Ragnhild

kongehuset.no - Her Highness Princess Ragnhild

kongehuset.no - Her Highness Princess Astrid

Prince Sverre is also styled as 'His Highness Prince Sverre Magnus'

kongehuset.no - His Highness Prince Sverre Magnus

[NGalitzine]

Thanks, although I notice when you switch to the Norwegian versions these styles are not applied. Astrid is shown as Princess Astrid, Frau Ferner and Sverre is simple Prince Sverre with no style applied. His parents and elder sister are styled HRH though. That is why I questioned if the styles are applied domestically or not.
Guess this is off topic for a British board and the Norwegians would know better. I have posted the question on the Norwegian thread.

[yvr girl]

I believe the HH title does only apply abroad.

[Iluvbertie]

The 1917 LPs which limited the HRH in Britain also abolished the HH and HSH titles in Britain. So in Britain you are either HRH or nothing along those lines. Obviously there are other titles such as Dukes, Earls etc that can be held but not HH or HSH.

[ironical]

I have a few stupid questions for you, I'm very sorry
After marriage Prince Philip renounced his Greek and Danish royal titles and accepted the title of Duke of Edinburgh, right? Why? I always thought that the title HRH Prince is "higher" than HRH Duke.
Why is Prince Philip not the King? His wife is the Queen and he is the Price by birth. What's the problem?
Thank you

[Osipi]

Philip renounced his title of Prince of Greece and Denmark and became a British citizen prior to his marriage to the then Princess Elizabeth.
Upon his marriage he was created HRH The Duke of Edinburgh. Philip did not hold the title of a prince of the UK until years later when his wife the Queen bestowed the title on him in 1957. Also, just prior to his marriage he converted from the Greek orthodox church to the Church of England and it was at this time he adopted the surname of Mountbatten.

Philip married into the British line of succession and when Elizabeth became Queen in 1952, it was another 5 years before he was given the title of a Prince of the UK. As Elizabeth is the Queen Regnant, he cannot be King as that title would outrank the Queen.

His former titles prior to marriage have no standing in the UK.

[ironical]

Originally Posted by Osipi

As Elizabeth is the Queen Regnant, he cannot be King as that title would outrank the Queen.

Thank you so much!
What does it mean? The King title is "stronger" than the Queen title?

[Osipi]

Originally Posted by ironical

Thank you so much!
What does it mean? The King title is "stronger" than the Queen title?

I suppose just like in a deck of cards and in most games, a king beats a queen. In the UK when there is a King, there is a Queen Consort such as HMs parents were. As Elizabeth is the reigning Queen such as Elizabeth I and Victoria were, she is called the Queen Regnant. That is why sometimes you will see her signature on something as Elizabeth R or Elizabeth II R.

Queen Victoria's husband Albert was known as the Prince Consort and he was a Prince of Saxe-Colburg Gotha. During this era, however, I believe that the UK recognized foreign titles. I'm sure some of our more knowledgeable members here will correct me if I'm wrong. Philip, however, is not a Prince Consort but a Prince of the UK in his own right by the grace and favor of the Queen.

One more thing. There is no such beast as a stupid question. I've learned by leaps and bounds here by asking questions and having others correct me where I am wrong. Welcome to TRF!

[ironical]

Thank you so much for "cards" example
I only know that Denmark recognizes the Greek titles and I'm not sure about GB.
Would you please explain how related to each other Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, and Queen Sophia of Spain?

[Osipi]

I have absolutely no clue how they are related but perhaps you can find the information in the Royal Genealogy threads. Royal Genealogy - The Royal Forums

Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip though are distant cousins (3rd) I believe as they both have Queen Victoria as their great-great grandmother.

[Iluvbertie]

First off - the Greek-Danish thing.

In 1864 the younger son of the King of Denmark, who was 2nd in line to the Danish throne at the time, was chosen by the Greek people and the major powers as the new King of Greece. He did retain his Danish titles so all his children were Princes/Princesses of both Greece and Denmark including the only son of his fourth son - Philip. So Philip is a grandson of George I of the Hellenes whose father was King of Denmark and whose sisters, in time became the Empress of Russian and the Queen of Great Britain.

Sofia is the daughter of Philip's first cousin - Paul. Depending on how you calculate cousins they are either first cousins once removed or second cousins.

When Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark married HRH The Duke of Kent she was often referred to as Princess Marina but officially she was recognised as HRH The Duchess of Kent in Britain although outside Britain she was often given the official titles she held from birth.

Philip didn't actually have to renounce his titles but to take out British citizenship he did do so but... a later court decision revealed that he had in fact been born a British citizen and didn't have to go through all that paperwork. He was created Duke of Edinburgh to give him a peerage in 1947.

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by Osipi

I have absolutely no clue how they are related but perhaps you can find the information in the Royal Genealogy threads. Royal Genealogy - The Royal Forums

Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip though are distant cousins (3rd) I believe as they both have Queen Victoria as their great-great grandmother.

They also have Christian IX of Denmark as a common ancestor.

Christian - Alexandra - George V - George VI - Elizabeth.

Christian - William (George I of the Hellenes) - Andrew - Philip

[ironical]

Thank you so much!
Would you please explain me how it possible, if Prince Philip as a baby moved to the UK with parents?
Does it mean that The Queen Sofia is Philip's distant niece, right?

[Iluvbertie]

Philip's father was accused of treason by the government and was facing a death sentence so the British navy was sent in to get out both Andrew and the rest of the family. George V had already lost one first cousin and family to revolutionaries (Nicholas, Alexandra and the Russian children) and wasn't about to lose another first cousin (Andrew) and his wife and children.

Philip therefore left Greece aged 1 and moved actually to France after a short visit to his grandmother in England. His grandmother, Victoria was the First Marchioness of Milford Haven and lived in Kensington Palace. Due to money problems Philip and his family moved to Paris where one of his father's brothers was able to help the family out.

Later on Philip was sent to school in England for most of his schooling - he spent about two terms at school in Germany after all four of his sisters married German princes but he laughed at the Nazis too much it was felt safer to send him to Gordonstoun, which was just being established.


Queen Sofia is his second cousin. Her father is his first cousin.

[Osipi]

Ahhhh... there is our esteemed resident history teacher Iluvbertie!!

Never ever annoying with questions but I know our mods here like to keep the threads on track

[ironical]

Yeah, I would like to attend Iluvbertie's lectures, it's unbelievable, but I have no more questions!
Thank you Osipi for patience

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by Osipi

Queen Victoria's husband Albert was known as the Prince Consort and he was a Prince of Saxe-Colburg Gotha. During this era, however, I believe that the UK recognized foreign titles. I'm sure some of our more knowledgeable members here will correct me if I'm wrong. Philip, however, is not a Prince Consort but a Prince of the UK in his own right by the grace and favor of the Queen.

You are absolutely correct. The Prince Consort (with capital letters) is a title that does not automatically belong to the consort of the queen regnant. So far, there has only been one Prince Consort in British history - Prince Albert The Prince Consort.
Prince Philip is, however, prince consort as husband of the Queen Regnant; he just isn't The Prince Consort. And yes, he is Prince of the United Kingdom and the Duke of Edinburgh in his own right, independent of his wife's titles and styles. He was

[Tiberivs]

Originally Posted by ironical

Thank you so much!
What does it mean? The King title is "stronger" than the Queen title?

I don't think a king is "stronger" than a queen regnant, it's just that despite the fact that women were never forbidden from ascending the throne of England, the hierarchical system of the monarchy never thought of such a scenario and so there is no define rank to a male consort. Even in our day Prince Philip commented that "Constitutionally I don't exist".

When Mary I married Philip II of Spain the English Parliament made Philip a co-king together with his wife, it was a jure uxoris title, meaning he wasn't just a consort but a real king with all the political power of that position, however he was such only due to his marriage and when his wife died he stopped being a king.

Elizabeth I never married but its likely that if she had a similar arrangement would be made for her husband (and not wanting to share the power was probably one of the reasons for her not to marry).

After the glorious revolution and the depositing of James II the English and Scottish parliaments offer the crowns to Mary II and William III as join sovereigns despite Mary having the superior heredity claim, unlike Philip William III was king in his own right and stay as such after his wife death. Obviously their ascending to the throne wasn't under normal circumstances and the parliaments only offer the crown to William because he refused to rule through his wife.

Queen Anne was the first female monarch whose husband was her subject, Prince George was prince of Denmark and Norway and was made Duke of Cumberland by William III.

Strangely Albert didn't have any British title for the first 17 years of his marriage to Victoria, he was prince of the tiny German state Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and Duke of Saxony, only in 1957 Victoria created him a prince of the UK with the title Prince-Consort which was especially created for him.

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by Tiberivs

I don't think a king is "stronger" than a queen regnant...

Brilliant post, just one addition: Lady Jane Grey's husband was her subject as well. I know Jane Grey is usually omitted from the list of English and British Monarchs; nevertheless, for the duration of those 13 days when Jane was Queen Regnant of England she flatly refused to grant her husband the title of the King, despite all his efforts.
Empress Matilda's second husband, Geoffrey V, Count of Anjou, was also her subject and there was never any question of elevating him to the rank of King. Of course, like Lady Jane Grey, Matilda was never crowned and is usually not included in the list of proper monarchs.

[Tiggersk8]

Originally Posted by ironical

Yeah, I would like to attend Iluvbertie's lectures, it's unbelievable, but I have no more questions!
Thank you Osipi for patience

May I come to that lecture too?

And I thank you for your questions, as I learned a couple of things I didn't know either. So there's even more proof for you there's no such thing as a stupid question.

Welcome to TRF!!