Questions about Future Queens, Dowagers and Surviving Spouses

[wbenson]

If this horrible scenario happens and Prince Charles dies before The Queen, Prince William remains just HRH Prince William unless she creates him Prince of Wales and until he succeeds to the Throne. A question remains: Would Prince William become Heir Apparent, or is that distinction only for an eldest son too?

He would be the heir apparent, as that just refers to someone who has a claim to the throne that cannot be displaced by the birth of anyone.

Were the Prince of Wales and the Duke of Edinburgh to predecease the Queen William would become Duke of Edinburgh.

Heraldica addresses this in their FAQ's, I just found.

alt.talk.royalty FAQ: British royalty and nobility

If Prince Charles dies in the lifetime of his mother the Queen, all of the peerages he holds (as heir apparent) would revert to the Crown. No one inherits them, not even his son Prince William. Following Prince Charles's death, HM The Queen could make her grandson, Prince William, "Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester" and these would be his for life or until he succeeded to the Throne. Prince Charles's other titles (Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, etc...) would not be given to or inherited by Prince William as these are reserved for the oldest son of the Sovereign.

I also found out that it's possible for a female to be heir apparent, which I never realized.

It is possible for a woman to be heir apparent, under the following circumstances. Suppose king X has an eldest son Y, and Y has an only daughter Z. Suppose that Y dies while X is still reigning: then Z becomes heir apparent, because no one can ever displace her in the order of succession.

 

[Elspeth]

I should think a female could also be heir apparent to a postmenopausal Queen Regnant. I mean, if Princess Anne were the Queen's only child, it'd be a heck of a stretch to call her the heir presumptive now.

This was pretty much the premise of the Princess Diaries books; the ruling Prince of Genovia was rendered infertile after cancer therapy so his daughter was going to be his only child. Goodness knows what they'd do nowadays with sperm banking and surrogate parenthood and so on, though.

 

[Russophile]

Were the Prince of Wales and the Duke of Edinburgh to predecease the Queen William would become Duke of Edinburgh.
Heraldica addresses this in their FAQ's, I just found.
alt.talk.royalty FAQ: British royalty and nobility

I also found out that it's possible for a female to be heir apparent, which I never realized.

I thought that Edward was to be Duke of Edinburgh. I thought that was a title conveyed upon the Duke and not hereditary.
I thought that they created females heir apparent when Victoria was in line to the throne.
(I'll go look at the link now! )

Holy Cow wbenson! What a WEALTH of information! Thank you!!

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

I thought that Edward was to be Duke of Edinburgh. I thought that was a title conveyed upon the Duke and not hereditary.
I thought that they created females heir apparent when Victoria was in line to the throne.
(I'll go look at the link now! )

No, Princess Victoria of Kent was just Heiress Presumptive like her great-great-granddaughter Princess Elizabeth of York. Even though Victoria's father died, negating the possibility of her being ousted by a brother, there was still a chance her uncle William IV could have a kid and any son or daughter of his would have taken a higher claim than her.

 

[branchg]

I thought that Edward was to be Duke of Edinburgh. I thought that was a title conveyed upon the Duke and not hereditary.
I thought that they created females heir apparent when Victoria was in line to the throne.
(I'll go look at the link now! )

Holy Cow wbenson! What a WEALTH of information! Thank you!!

The Dukedom of Edinburgh passes to the eldest son or grandson like any other peerage. If Charles did not survive his father, William would become the new Duke of Edinburgh until he became King. At that point, the title would merge with the Crown and be available again to be recreated for Prince Edward.

The same scenario applies to Charles. He inherits his father's titles as eldest son and can recreate them once he is King.

 

[diamondBrg]

The Dukedom of Edinburgh passes to the eldest son or grandson like any other peerage. If Charles did not survive his father, William would become the new Duke of Edinburgh until he became King. At that point, the title would merge with the Crown and be available again to be recreated for Prince Edward.

The same scenario applies to Charles. He inherits his father's titles as eldest son and can recreate them once he is King.

I also remember reading that when Prince Philip passes and his title, Duke of Edinburgh, reverts to the Crown, it will be given to Prince Edward.

 

[diamondBrg]

We have been discussing the Duchy of Cornwall and it's succession path within the aristocracy.

Assuming it is correct that should Prince Charles die that Prince William would NOT become the Duke of Cornwall, that only his oldest son could, it is my understanding that a great deal of money comes from the Duchy, where would the money go and who would have control of it?

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

We have been discussing the Duchy of Cornwall and it's succession path within the aristocracy.

Assuming it is correct that should Prince Charles die that Prince William would NOT become the Duke of Cornwall, that only his oldest son could, it is my understanding that a great deal of money comes from the Duchy, where would the money go and who would have control of it?

I think the Duchy of Cornwall reverts to the Crown in the case of there not being an Heir Apparent/Eldest Son of the Monarch, as in the case of Prince Charles predeceasing Prince William and Her Majesty. Prince William would be Heir Apparent and could be made Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester. The Duchy funds are administered by a council. The issue of there being no Heir Apparent/eldest son to be Duke of Cornwall arose also with Princess Elizabeth. There was a big debate in Parliament about how to pay her, and the Duchy came up for question, but in the end she and Philip were granted Civil List allowance and money to renovate Clarence House, and the Duchy of Cornwall remained with the Crown as it had been since the last Duke of Cornwall became Edward vIII in 1936.

 

[branchg]

We have been discussing the Duchy of Cornwall and it's succession path within the aristocracy.

Assuming it is correct that should Prince Charles die that Prince William would NOT become the Duke of Cornwall, that only his oldest son could, it is my understanding that a great deal of money comes from the Duchy, where would the money go and who would have control of it?

The income is paid to the State directly through the Exchequer if there is no Duke of Cornwall. Although technically The Sovereign has the right to ask for the money to be paid, it must be approved by Parliament.

 

[branchg]

I also remember reading that when Prince Philip passes and his title, Duke of Edinburgh, reverts to the Crown, it will be given to Prince Edward.

The plan is for Charles to re-create the dukedom of Edinburgh for his brother, Prince Edward, once he becomes King and his titles merge with the Crown.

Of course, he is under no obligation to do so as the fount of honour, but that was the announced intention after Prince Philip and The Queen have passed on.

 

[Warren]

The issue of the Dukedom of Edinburgh has been discussed at length in the Questions About Titles thread. Rather than repeating the discussion and taking the 'Surviving Spouse' thread further off topic, could questions about this subject be continued in the Titles thread.

thanks,
Warren
British Forums moderator

nb.. The information about the inheritance of the Edinburgh title posted by branchg at #110 and #115 above is correct.
.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

The plan is for Charles to re-create the dukedom of Edinburgh for his brother, Prince Edward, once he becomes King and his titles merge with the Crown.

Of course, he is under no obligation to do so as the fount of honour, but that was the announced intention after Prince Philip and The Queen have passed on.

I highly doubt the queen and The Duke of Edinburgh would announce "intentions" that they personally cannot make for real without the knowledge and okay of the person who must make them into realities. in this case Charles. Only he can after both his parent's death create his brother Edward the new Duke of Edinburgh. I guess he'll do it.

What I'm not so sure about is if his announced intentions of today (that is: in the lifetime of his parents) will still be valid when it comes to his inheriting the Crown. Eg The "princess Consort" stuff.

I believe there are a lot of "deals" between Charles and the queen nowadays and I doubt the queen would make any important decision today without consulting Charles first and as most important voice to be heared.
While I think that Charles would have aggreed to close to anything in order to be able to marry Camilla and get the HRH-style for her. But once he is king it's up to him to deal with parliament when it comes to decide what to do.

 

[elleann]

Queen consort

This is the theme about which qualities she must have to be royal consort. i dont think it is only love. She must have approval of royal family and parlament. For example, in Spain Eva sannum was dating the prince but was described by royal watchers as unsuitable. How must she behave to win peoples hearts? Which qualities she must have? How do you see this girl?

 

[HRH Bella]

This is a good question
this depends on the lady and were she comes from and if she is from the same blood so for a answer it would depend on the Lady! hope that helps

 

[sinulord]

If Charles becomes King, Camilla would legally be Queen (barring any Act of Parliament passed to the contrary). However, Clarence House has indicated that she intends to use the title HRH The Princess Consort. Therefore, if Charles dies before her, she would probably be titled HRH The Dowager Princess Consort.

 

[Warren]

Discussion of the 'Princess Consort' title should be made in the Title for Camilla thread.

 

[KittyAtlanta]

I thought that Edward was to be Duke of Edinburgh. I thought that was a title conveyed upon the Duke and not hereditary.
I thought that they created females heir apparent when Victoria was in line to the throne.
(I'll go look at the link now! )

Holy Cow wbenson! What a WEALTH of information! Thank you!!

It is said that after the deaths of BOTH The Queen and HRH Prince Philip, that Edward would become the Duke of Edinburgh. So, I concur with U.

As to Camilla becoming the Princess Consort, she could, but I think Charles would want her to be queen -- and that will be that. I hope she'll accept what will be rightfully hers.

 

[Iluvbertie]

It is said that after the deaths of BOTH The Queen and HRH Prince Philip, that Edward would become the Duke of Edinburgh. So, I concur with U.

As to Camilla becoming the Princess Consort, she could, but I think Charles would want her to be queen -- and that will be that. I hope she'll accept what will be rightfully hers.

It isn't automatic that Edward will become DoE on the deaths of both the Queen and DoE.

If Charles has inherited the title then the intention is that he will recreate it for Edward. The same if William is King but this spells out all the scenarios for the title.
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f23/the-future-of-the-duke-of-edinburgh-title-24343.html

 

[Duchessmary]

If Charles wants to make his wife Queen consort, he will.

 

[Iluvbertie]

If Charles wants to make his wife Queen consort, he will.

It is not a matter of making her Queen Consort. Just as she automatically became The Princess of Wales when she said 'I do' she will automatically become Queen Consort and will need to be stripped of it rather than the other way around.

 

[HM Queen Catherine]

It is not a matter of making her Queen Consort. Just as she automatically became The Princess of Wales when she said 'I do' she will automatically become Queen Consort and will need to be stripped of it rather than the other way around.

And you can bet your last dollar that Charles has no intention whatsoever of stripping Camilla of the right to be Queen.

I'm sure he's hoping that when he does ascend the throne, the people of the UK and Commonwealth will have no objections to Camilla being named Queen Consort..

It's all in the wording of the announcements that came from the palace at the time of their marriage.. "it is intended" that Camilla will be known as HRH The Princess Consort when Charles becomes king..

But intentions are not legally binding.. and unless there is some parliamentary action taken to bar her from being Queen, then yes, she will be Queen no matter what she calls herself when the time comes.

 

[Trubie]

What happens?

This is something I've been thinking about with William engaged and everything. Let's says Charles becomes king one day. Has a reign and dies. William becomes king. Now, let's say Camilla is still alive. What would happen to her? I just wonder because she's not related to the king and none of her children are nobility, to my understanding. Would she live with William and his family? What happens to a former queen in this situation?

 

[Roslyn]

Where she lived would depend a lot on her age and state of health at the time, but if she were going to be living with anyone, I think she would be living with one of her own children. I can't imagine why she'd live with William and his family. Neither Alexandra, Mary nor Elizabeth lived with their children during their widowhood, so why would Camilla live with people to whom she is only related by marriage?

 

[Lumutqueen]

She may choose to be entirely independent and live on her own, or with her own family.
However, cutting her off completely from the royal family would be slightly harsh after she will have put in years of service as DOC and Queen when the time comes.
I'm sure she'll be taken care of, whatever her health or state of mind. William and Harry get along well with their stepmother, they respect her and aren't going to discard her when their father dies.

 

[HM Queen Catherine]

If Charles becomes king and dies before Camilla, she would then be known as HRH The Dowager Princess Consort (if she does use the Princess Consort title instead of Queen).. or they could just leave her title as HRH The Princess Consort, since most women today prefer not to use "Dowager".

As far as where she would live in the event of widowhood, Camilla has her own property already - not far from Charles' Highgrove estate - and most likely she would retire there and remain out of the public spotlight.

Camilla is not fond of being in public anyway, although she has gotten better at it over the last few years. I understand that being in front of crowds makes her nervous.. so I imagine that if Charles leaves her a widow, she will quietly retire from public life and live in the country, where she can be herself and take part in the lives of her grandchildren.

No doubt if she should continue her public works and charities, she would need a place in London as well.. so it would be likely that she would take apartments in Kensington Palace for that purpose.. but she would not live with William and Catherine.

 

[Trubie]

Thanks. I understand now.

 

[NoorMeansLight]

The DOC never lived with William or Harry anyway. She can use her own property for this purpose, after P Charles' death (if he dies first).

If Charles becomes king and dies before Camilla, she would then be known as HRH The Dowager Princess Consort (if she does use the Princess Consort title instead of Queen).. or they could just leave her title as HRH The Princess Consort, since most women today prefer not to use "Dowager".

I agree with the entire post, but I do have an objection here. I thought Kate would be HRH The Princess Consort, when William becomes King. Can both women hold the same title?! Or perhaps Kate will be named Queen Consort?! It's confusing, I know.

 

[Zonk]

Kate becomes the Queen Consort when William becomes King. None of that confusing Princess Consort stuff.

 

[NGalitzine]

Catherine will undoubtably be Queen Catherine, and it is not beyond the realm of possibility that Camilla will also be Queen. My guess is that a widowed Camilla would retreat to her own country house and quite likely maintain a London residence and office at St James Palace where Charles lived before getting Clarence House. She would still need a London office to look after her various patronages and also to attend events in the capital.
It would be similar to Queen Adelaide, widow of William IV, when Victoria came to the throne.

 

[MARG]

There is one point we are overlooking when it comes to Camilla as Dowager. It is all very well saying she will live with her children but, in all probability they would have to live with her.

After the awful events during the riots in London there is a major security review underway. The latest videos available are even worse than those we saw immediately it happened. It means that the level of security for members of the royal family is going to be upped considerably. The members of the BRF themselves are going to have to compromise to enable the Protection Service to do their jobs the best they can. Camilla's present alternative home life may come under scrutiny. She may have to re-locate to a more secure location. Same if she survives Charles. Highgrove is defensible, her own property is not. Then there is Clarence House.

Sad to say, security is going to be the thing that underpins everything in the future. I dare say William's Wedding will be the first victim. Security is going to be a lot tighter and a lot more overt than anyone had foreseen.