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  #21  
Old 04-07-2005, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sara1981
oh my gosh!

Sara Boyce
Sarah, calm down! There is no way that Charles and Camilla will ever have any children together. Therefore Camilla will never be the mother of a future monarch and she will never be called Queen Mum.:)
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  #22  
Old 04-07-2005, 09:22 PM
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She would probably be called Queen Camilla, unless William's wife was also called Camilla; under those circumstances she might have to settle for Queen Dowager.
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  #23  
Old 04-08-2005, 12:11 AM
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I hope and pray it would be Princess Consort Dowager, not Queen Dowager! No queenship for Camilla!
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  #24  
Old 04-08-2005, 12:23 AM
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If she was just known as Princess Consort during Charles's reign, I assume that's what she'd continue to be known as afterwards since there'd be no fear of confusion between her and William's wife. If she's known as Queen during Charles's reign, she'd probably be Queen Camilla afterwards.

Even if she's known as Princess Consort, she'll still be queen if Charles becomes king unless there's special legislation to prevent it.
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  #25  
Old 06-25-2005, 12:24 PM
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Camilla cannot assume the style and title of "HRH the Princess Consort" without legislation in Parliament and acceptance by the Commonwealth countries. The wife of the King is automatically Queen Consort and that question was settled in 1936. There is no way the Government will allow her to be anything else without legislation.

It is hoped that by the time Charles ascends to the throne, this matter will be irrelevant and the people will accept Camilla as Queen Consort. In my opinion, given the reality that the Queen may reign another 15 years or so, it is likely this will be the case.

If Charles died before ascending the throne, Camilla would remain a princess of the UK unless the Queen grants her another style and title. The title Prince of Wales merges with the Crown upon the death of the holder. Assuming the Queen then regranted the title to Prince William as the new heir, it is likely Camilla would be granted a dukedom to hold in her own right for her lifetime with the style of HRH (such as HRH the Duchess of Sussex). If Charles dies after becoming King, Camilla remains Queen Dowager with precedence after the new queen consort.

In Queen Elizabeth's case, upon the death of her husband King George VI, she became a Queen Dowager, along with Queen Mary. In this case, the Queen Mother held precedence ahead of Queen Mary since her daughter was the Sovereign. Normally, Queen Dowagers would hold precedence in order of reigns, so Queen Mary first, then Queen Elizabeth, however, she was also Queen Mother so her precedence came after her daughter.
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  #26  
Old 06-25-2005, 06:09 PM
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Camilla cannot assume the style and title of "HRH the Princess Consort" without legislation in Parliament and acceptance by the Commonwealth countries. The wife of the King is automatically Queen Consort and that question was settled in 1936. There is no way the Government will allow her to be anything else without legislation.
Someone needs to tell the webmaster of the royal family's official site, then. They make it sound like a done deal already.

http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page3974.asp

No doubt it's hoped that this won't arise because people will be so used to her at the time of Charles's accession (and Diana will increasingly be a part of history rather than current events) that it'll be quite natural for her to simply become queen consort, or Charles will predecease the Queen and the whole issue will become irrelevant. However, for the moment they aren't talking about passing legislation, they're saying that she WILL be known as HRH the Princess Consort.
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  #27  
Old 06-25-2005, 06:27 PM
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Well, they also made it sound like that Camilla would not be HRH The Princess of Wales, but Duchess of Cornwall when marrying Prince Charles. When MP's questioned whether the marriage would be morganatic, it was only then made clear by the PM and the Prince that she WOULD be Princess of Wales automatically, but had chosen to be known as Duchess of Cornwall instead (obviously with the Queen's approval).

It was made clear upon further questioning of Parliament that Camilla WOULD NOT be HRH Princess Consort without legislation being introduced to allow her to do so. The Lord Chancellor stated legally Camilla would be Queen Consort when Charles ascended the throne, however, the matter of legislation may have to be considered when the time came if she wished to be Princess Consort instead.

Right now, Camilla is HRH The Princess of Wales, but permitted by the Sovereign to be known as HRH The Duchess of Cornwall instead. Without legislation, she will be Queen Camilla if Charles ascends the throne. Will a future Government allow Charles, as King, to issue a royal warrant granting Camilla the style and title of HRH the Princess Consort when in law she is already Queen Consort? This is highly unlikely and without precedent constitutionally.

Everyone in the current Government knows Camilla will be Queen Consort. They're just hoping the matter will be a non-issue by the time Charles ascends the throne. I also think there is consensus that the Queen may be the last of the true monarchs of the UK, and by the time a King Charles III ascends, the crown will be reduced even further to a mere symbol of the past, with an elected head of state.
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  #28  
Old 06-25-2005, 06:40 PM
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As far as I remember from discussions here at the time the engagement was announced, it was fairly clear right from the start that she'd BE the Princess of Wales but that she'd be KNOWN by another of her titles. I don't think anybody officially tried to claim that she wouldn't be Princess of Wales, they just seemed to think that by saying she'd be known as the Duchess of Cornwall, people somehow wouldn't notice that she'd be Princess of Wales too. That must rank as one of the most wildly optimistic opinions in recent history.

The issue of Princess Consort versus Queen Consort is a different one, because the former isn't a recognised title. Again, it seems like a rather vain attempt to avoid having to face something that's likely to be currently unpopular. I expect these same optimists think that, if the legislation is ever put into the works, nobody will notice until it's happened.

They must live in a different world from the rest of us.
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  #29  
Old 06-26-2005, 01:22 PM
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When Charles ascends the throne I think Camilla should become Queen Consort and known as Queen Camilla. She will be married to the king and giving her a special title to avoid her being Queen Camilla won't change the influence she will have on the King and her position in the line of precedence. And it will be so very confusing when historians look back hundreds of years later and try to figure out the reason this woman wasn't Queen and a special title was created for her. There have been unpopular queens in the past however they weren't denied the title.
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  #30  
Old 06-28-2005, 10:08 AM
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Elspeth

Quote:
she'd be Queen Mother
I don't think so. I don't think there is any such title as Queen Mother, frankly. It was a one-off personally requested by Queen Elizabeth solely because her daughter was also called Elizabeth; she asked for --- the Queen Mother after HM Queen Elizabeth in order to distinguish herself from her daughter.

IMO, it is an ugly style and one I hope we do not see more of.

No English Queen has ever, to my knowledge, used the style Queen Mother except E. Bowes-Lyon.

As to Camilla, the palace has already clarified that she is, right now, the Princess of Wales. She is merely using a lesser style.
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  #31  
Old 06-28-2005, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
Elspeth



I don't think so. I don't think there is any such title as Queen Mother, frankly. It was a one-off personally requested by Queen Elizabeth solely because her daughter was also called Elizabeth; she asked for --- the Queen Mother after HM Queen Elizabeth in order to distinguish herself from her daughter.

.
The title was not created for the Queen mother. Queen Alexandra and Queen Mary both held the title Queen Mother.
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  #32  
Old 06-28-2005, 11:38 AM
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how silly of me. i always think that Queen Mother stands for Queen's mother. LOL.
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  #33  
Old 06-28-2005, 02:28 PM
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Queen Alexandra and Queen Mary both held the title Queen Mother.
did they? do you have a link to that?
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  #34  
Old 06-28-2005, 08:19 PM
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What will she be called if like the palace said at the time and she is crowned as Princess Consort and not Queen, providing that Charles dies before her?
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  #35  
Old 06-28-2005, 08:40 PM
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I don't think so. I don't think there is any such title as Queen Mother, frankly. It was a one-off personally requested by Queen Elizabeth solely because her daughter was also called Elizabeth; she asked for --- the Queen Mother after HM Queen Elizabeth in order to distinguish herself from her daughter.
In one of Queen Mary's biographies that I read, it said that she was very pleased to find that, after she was widowed, she was a Queen Mother rather than a Queen Dowager. It said that the Queen Mother title involved extra power or authority or perks of some sort, but it didn't go into any details and I haven't been able to find anything out since then.

I suspect the reason that Queen Mary and Queen Alexandra were known by their names, but Queen Elizabeth wasn't, is simply that Queen Elizabeth had the same name as her successor and it would have been confusing if she'd continued to use the same title she'd used when her husband was alive. It's quite possible that if George VI had been married to a Mary rather than an Elizabeth, Queen Mary would have been known as Queen Mother.
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  #36  
Old 06-28-2005, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgia
What will she be called if like the palace said at the time and she is crowned as Princess Consort and not Queen, providing that Charles dies before her?
I really doubt she'd be crowned if she wasn't going to take the title of Queen. Far as I know, princes and princesses don't get crowned in monarchies.

However, if she isn't crowned and is known during Charles's reign as Princess Consort and then outlives him, she'd probably be given a title by William, either "Princess Camilla" or "HRH Duchess of something-or-other." If Charles dies before becoming king, there's no reason why she couldn't continue to be Duchess of Cornwall, since there wouldn't be another Duchess of Cornwall until William was king and his eldest son was married.
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  #37  
Old 06-29-2005, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
did they? do you have a link to that?
No sorry I don't know of any link but I have seen a book brought out for the silver jubilee of George V and it had a chapter for each year of his reign. At the beginning of year 1925 it says "In this year the Queen Mother died."
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  #38  
Old 06-29-2005, 08:11 AM
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Iain but I don't think it was a formal title though. I googled it and couldn't find any reference. And Elspeth I don't believe that being the mother of a monarch confers any extra rank or benefit on a Queen, although as a practical matter, the child who was King/Queen could decide who got the best palace and residence, that might have been what was being referred to.
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  #39  
Old 06-29-2005, 08:17 AM
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She would be HRH the Duchess of Cornwall and when William married, HRH the Dowager Duchess of Cornwall. In fact of course she would be HRH the Dowager Princess of wales. This title is sometimes shortened to HRH the Princess Dowager. Henry VIII referred to Katherine of Aragorn that way after "annulling" her marriage because she was the widow of his elder brother who had died as Prince of Wales. (That is he used the title 'Princess Dowager', in those days it was Her Grace not Her Royal Highness. HVIIII was the first King to use Majesty).
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  #40  
Old 06-29-2005, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
She would be HRH the Duchess of Cornwall and when William married, HRH the Dowager Duchess of Cornwall. In fact of course she would be HRH the Dowager Princess of wales. This title is sometimes shortened to HRH the Princess Dowager. Henry VIII referred to Katherine of Aragorn that way after "annulling" her marriage because she was the widow of his elder brother who had died as Prince of Wales. (That is he used the title 'Princess Dowager', in those days it was Her Grace not Her Royal Highness. HVIIII was the first King to use Majesty).
There is no precedent for a Dowager Duchess of Cornwall and this is highly unlikely. The duchy is automatically held by the heir to the throne and the Duchess of Cornwall is the title of the wife of the heir to the throne and no one else. If Charles died before ascending the throne, William would automatically become the Duke of Cornwall.

Camilla would no longer be Princess of Wales or Duchess of Cornwall. Technically, she would be HRH Dowager Princess Charles. Depending on many factors, more likely than not, Camilla would be granted a new style and title (i.e. HRH Duchess of Sussex or HRH Countess of Truro) to hold in her own right for her lifetime. Only if she was regarded highly by the public and had been the wife of Charles for a long time would she be granted the right to be known as HRH Princess Camilla as a widow.

Much would depend on the Prime Minister's advice to the Queen, and William's feelings on the matter as well.
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