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  #301  
Old 06-11-2013, 06:53 PM
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If William has a son and William were to die while Charles is king, Kate would continue as Duchess of Cornwall and Cambridge, right?
William and Kate's son would inherit the Duke of Cambridge title, but not the Duke of Cornwall title, right?

Now my real question: Once Charles dies, and William and Kate's son becomes king, what would Kate be called? Would Kate continue to be called Duchess of Cornwall and Cambridge or would she have a special title as mother of the King? Also, if Kate's son were to already be a father of a son, would Kate then be 'Duchess Dowager of Cornwall and Duchess of Cambridge'?


Depending on what titles she had she'd be the Dowager Duchess of Cornwall/Cambridge or else the Dowager Princess of Wales unless she was made a Princess in her own right,then she'd be Princess Catherine .
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  #302  
Old 06-11-2013, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Americanskipper View Post
If William has a son and William were to die while Charles is king, Kate would continue as Duchess of Cornwall and Cambridge, right?

William and Kate's son would inherit the Duke of Cambridge title, but not the Duke of Cornwall title, right?

Now my real question: Once Charles dies, and William and Kate's son becomes king, what would Kate be called? Would Kate continue to be called Duchess of Cornwall and Cambridge or would she have a special title as mother of the King? Also, if Kate's son were to already be a father of a son, would Kate then be 'Duchess Dowager of Cornwall and Duchess of Cambridge'?
Duchess of Cornwall? Why would Kate not be Princess of Wales? Are you assuming for some reason,Charles does not make William Prince of Wales? DOC is a secondary title, Camilla is Princess of Wales, but because of Diana, never uses it. Kate would be dowager Princess of Wales.

No there son could not, if it is a son, inherit Cornwall. It is bestowed on the eldest son of the monarch. If Will is never king, his son will never be duke of cornwall. Same goes if Charles died before the queen, Will never would be.

Kate would remain Dowager Princess of Wales, when her son became king. Queen mother is traditionally only for a woman who is not only mother of the monarch, but also was queen/consort herself. This was the case of George III's mother when he became king, his father was eldest son of George II.
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  #303  
Old 06-11-2013, 08:17 PM
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Queen Mother is not an official title of the Crown. I thought that the reason it came into common usage after 1952 was not to confuse Queen Elizabeth II with Queen Elizabeth (Queen Consort). But that might be folklore.

Catherine's title, in the situation you outline, would be Duchess of Cornwall and Cambridge (we are assuming that William was not made PoW).

Er after that - I chicken out cos I dont think (a) its feasible in age terms and (b) I dont know the answer.

But I want to know as well.
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  #304  
Old 06-11-2013, 08:36 PM
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Queen Mother is not an official title of the Crown. I thought that the reason it came into common usage after 1952 was not to confuse Queen Elizabeth II with Queen Elizabeth (Queen Consort). But that might be folklore.

Catherine's title, in the situation you outline, would be Duchess of Cornwall and Cambridge (we are assuming that William was not made PoW).

Er after that - I chicken out cos I dont think (a) its feasible in age terms and (b) I dont know the answer.

But I want to know as well.
I don't know if Queen mother is an official title, but it didn't originate with QEQM. It's been used in England since the 16th century to refer to a Dowager Queen who is also the mother of the current monarch. It's most closely related with QEQM because she's the most recent holder of the position, but Alexandra was Queen Mother during the rule of George V, and Mary was Queen Mother during the rules of Edward VIII and George VI, although she never used the title.

What were you chickening out on answering?
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  #305  
Old 06-11-2013, 10:07 PM
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I have read in the case of Marina her use of Princess was a reversion to her Greek titles. That a royal warrant wasn't issued doesn't mean that it wasn't - I think what happened was that she had already been Princess Marina and at her still young age she didn't want to become known as a Dowager, so she asked to be known as Princess Marina again, and the Queen simply let it be known that it was her desire that she do such (similar to the situation with Louise and James).

As for Alice, while I don't think she compared herself to Wallis I do think Wallis not having any princely titles was a factor here. There were 4 wives of the sons of George V, and at the time of her husband's death Alice and Wallis were the only two who didn't the right to use a princely title in their own right (and while Wallis didn't legally have an HRH she did use the HRH from the day of her marriage until the day she died). I do think that that, combined with the fact that Marina had been allowed to be Princess Marina is what influenced Alice to ask to be Princess Alice.
It wasn't a reversion. The Queen simply granted Marina permission to assume the style of Princess Marina, which she was not entitled to in the UK as she was not a child or male-line grandchild of The Sovereign, when Katharine became The Duchess of Kent in 1961. She later granted Alice the same honour when Brigitte became The Duchess of Gloucester. Both were Princesses only by marriage and not in their own right in the UK, regardless of the fact Marina was born a Princess of Greece.

Wallis most certainly did not use HRH from the day of her marriage to the day she died. Her staff and close friends may have addressed her that way in deference to The Duke's wishes, but everyone else addressed her as Your Grace. She was denied royal rank via Letters Patent.
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  #306  
Old 06-12-2013, 12:02 AM
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I don't know if Queen mother is an official title, but it didn't originate with QEQM. It's been used in England since the 16th century to refer to a Dowager Queen who is also the mother of the current monarch. It's most closely related with QEQM because she's the most recent holder of the position, but Alexandra was Queen Mother during the rule of George V, and Mary was Queen Mother during the rules of Edward VIII and George VI, although she never used the title.?
Queen Mother is a style and was never used by Alexandra or Mary as dowager queens. They were simply Queen Alexandra and Queen Mary after their husbands died. Their sons were Kings, not a reigning Queen.

Queen Elizabeth used the style because her daughter was also Elizabeth as The Sovereign. It was unique to her as the mother of a reigning Queen Elizabeth II.
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  #307  
Old 06-12-2013, 02:28 AM
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Queen Mother is a style and was never used by Alexandra or Mary as dowager queens. They were simply Queen Alexandra and Queen Mary after their husbands died. Their sons were Kings, not a reigning Queen.

Queen Elizabeth used the style because her daughter was also Elizabeth as The Sovereign. It was unique to her as the mother of a reigning Queen Elizabeth II.
I think you're misunderstanding what Queen Mother means.

The Oxford English Dictionary defines Queen Mother as
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The widow of a king who is also the mother of the reigning monarch. Also (in form of Queen Mother) used as a title.
This means that Alexandra and Mary were both entitled to the title Queen Mother, even if they didn't use it as a formal title. I'm not sure if Alexandra did or not, but Mary actively decided not to because she didn't like the title. She preferred instead to be known as Queen Mary during her son's reign and Queen Mary, the Dowager Queen during her granddaughter's reign.

Elizabeth (Bowes-Lyon) used the title for a couple reasons - at the start of her daughter's reign there were three Queens (herself, Mary, and her daughter) and two of those Queens were named Elizabeth. Going by Queen Mother helped to differentiate between the two of them.
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  #308  
Old 06-12-2013, 11:21 PM
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If the Queen were to abdicate (I know it won't happen, but I am just saying 'if'), would she then be titled Queen Mother? Or what title would she have? Princess Elizabeth?

I wonder how many people will respond with a 'She won't abdicate.' I know she won't abdicate!
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  #309  
Old 06-13-2013, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Americanskipper View Post
If the Queen were to abdicate (I know it won't happen, but I am just saying 'if'), would she then be titled Queen Mother? Or what title would she have? Princess Elizabeth?

I wonder how many people will respond with a 'She won't abdicate.' I know she won't abdicate!
I would think she would become Princess Elisabeth, the Duchess of Edinburgh, which was her title prior to her ascension.

The reasoning is two fold:
1. The title Queen Mother refers to a former Queen Consort who is the mother of the current monarch. HM is not a Queen Consort.
2. To continue to refer to an abdicated monarch while they're still alive as King or Queen (even with additions) can make things confusing and can be seen as a threat to the legitimacy of the new monarch's reign. In the past when a former monarch was forced to abdicate he may have continued to use the title King of England while in exile, but he did continue to pose a threat to the monarch that had usurped him. When Edward VIII abdicated he reverted to simply being HRH Prince Edward (until he was created Duke of Windsor). The same, I would assume, would happen with HM - she would revert to the titles she held prior to her ascension.
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  #310  
Old 06-13-2013, 01:09 AM
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If the Queen were to abdicate (I know it won't happen, but I am just saying 'if'), would she then be titled Queen Mother? Or what title would she have? Princess Elizabeth?
Given what happened with Edward VIII, she'd definitely be Princess Elizabeth, and as the wife of the Duke of Edinburgh she'd be the Duchess of Edinburgh too.

But Edward also abdicated in disgrace, more or less. The UK just has no precedent for what to do with a monarch who leaves in good graces. Abdication is done by act of Parliament, and Parliament is supreme, so it's entirely possible that they could let her maintain rank as a queen (I'm not sure if her successor would have the capacity to do that). One of the features of a system based on tradition and precedent is that it's flexible in unusual situations.
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  #311  
Old 06-13-2013, 11:27 AM
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I would say for her being in good graces she would be Queen Elizabeth, Duchess of Edinburgh.
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