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  #281  
Old 06-11-2013, 12:21 PM
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Now my real question: Once Charles dies, and William and Kate's son becomes king, what would Kate be called? Would Kate continue to be called Duchess of Cornwall and Cambridge or would she have a special title as mother of the King?
Kate be called Queen Catherine, I think ...
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  #282  
Old 06-11-2013, 12:23 PM
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The example of Queen Victoria's mother would suggest Catherine would continue to be known by her ducal title, although it is quite possible that she might be called HRH Princess Catherine, Duchess of X following along with Alice Gloucester. She would never be Queen Mother having never been a Queen Consort in your scenario.
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  #283  
Old 06-11-2013, 12:25 PM
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If William has a son and William were to die while Charles is king, Kate would continue as Duchess of Cornwall and Cambridge, right?

William and Kate's son would inherit the Duke of Cambridge title, but not the Duke of Cornwall title, right?
William's son would be the Duke of Cambridge yes. Catherine would be the Dowager Duchess of Cornwall and Cambridge, and able to go by either that or simply the Duchess of C and C until her son gets married and there's a new Duchess (she could also chose to be called simply the Duchess of Cornwall and leave the Duchess of Cambridge title for her son's future wife; some women don't like to use the dowager title).

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Now my real question: Once Charles dies, and William and Kate's son becomes king, what would Kate be called? Would Kate continue to be called Duchess of Cornwall and Cambridge or would she have a special title as mother of the King? Also, if Kate's son were to already be a father of a son, would Kate then be 'Duchess Dowager of Cornwall and Duchess of Cambridge'?
There is no official title for the king's mother who has never been queen herself. If William were to die without ever having been king, Catherine would remain the Dowager Duchess of Cornwall and Cambridge (if she becomes the Duchess of Cornwall) unless her child choses to give her some other title.
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Old 06-11-2013, 02:13 PM
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She can continue as Duchess of Cornwall.
Reason: The "Dowager" will be added only when the next Duchess comes.
Marina and Alice remained "Duchess" till their sons married, and took "Princess (read Dowager Duchess)" styles only on the wedding days of their sons.
So for Kate also, it will be the same, and even much later.Because her son will not be The Duke of Cornwall during Charles' reign. So till he ascends the throne he will be Duke of Cambridge (automaticlly) and Prince of Wales (by creation), but never Duke of Cornwall.
And when he finally ascends the throne, his "son+heir" (Kate's grandson) will be Duke of Cornwall, and his wife will be the next Duchess of Cornwall.
SO effectively, for Kate, till her grandson marries, she can perfectly use the title Duchess of Cornwall without any Dowager tags..
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  #285  
Old 06-11-2013, 02:31 PM
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Marina and Alice remained "Duchess" till their sons married, and took "Princess (read Dowager Duchess)" styles only on the wedding days of their sons.
Marina and Alice are exceptions, not rules, as far as the Princess goes. Marina was a Princess of Greece and Denmark prior to her marriage. When her son got married she didn't want to be known as a dowager duchess, so she reverted to her Greek titles (Princess) while also keeping the titles she had gained by marriage (HRH Duchess of Kent) by combining the two (HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent).

In Alice's case she was never a Princess in her own right, but the Queen granted her the right to be known as Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester, because she too didn't want to be known as a dowager duchess. It is possible that if Catherine wishes to be known as Princess Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge at some point during her widowhood instead of as the Dowager Duchess she may be given permission to do so, but it is not a guarantee.
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  #286  
Old 06-11-2013, 02:37 PM
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She can continue as Duchess of Cornwall.
Reason: The "Dowager" will be added only when the next Duchess comes.
Marina and Alice remained "Duchess" till their sons married, and took "Princess (read Dowager Duchess)" styles only on the wedding days of their sons.

So for Kate also, it will be the same, and even much later.Because her son will not be The Duke of Cornwall during Charles' reign. So till he ascends the throne he will be Duke of Cambridge (automaticlly) and Prince of Wales (by creation), but never Duke of Cornwall.
And when he finally ascends the throne, his "son+heir" (Kate's grandson) will be Duke of Cornwall, and his wife will be the next Duchess of Cornwall.
SO effectively, for Kate, till her grandson marries, she can perfectly use the title Duchess of Cornwall without any Dowager tags..
I've got one small correction and a general query. Marina was already a Princess in her own right. Alice, Duchess of Gloucester asked the Queen as you say to be called Princess Alice, and the Queen agreed as she didnt wish to be called Dowager. I think that she would have been dowager whether her son was married or not.

In the Nobility, a Duchess (or any other level of nobility) becomes a Dowager upon the death of her husband. Otherwise it looks like she is the wife of her son. They are not the Duke and Duchess of X - they would be the Duke and Dowager Duchess of X. She could, of course, be known as "Mary-Ann", Duchess of X.

Why would it be different for a royal?
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  #287  
Old 06-11-2013, 02:44 PM
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I've got one small correction and a general query. Marina was already a Princess in her own right. Alice, Duchess of Gloucester asked the Queen as you say to be called Princess Alice, and the Queen agreed as she didnt wish to be called Dowager. I think that she would have been dowager whether her son was married or not.

In the Nobility, a Duchess (or any other level of nobility) becomes a Dowager upon the death of her husband. Otherwise it looks like she is the wife of her son. They are not the Duke and Duchess of X - they would be the Duke and Dowager Duchess of X. She could, of course, be known as "Mary-Ann", Duchess of X.

Why would it be different for a royal?
The instant that her husband dies a duchess becomes the dowager duchess.

However, until the new duke gets married she is able to continue to go by "Duchess of X" because there is no new duchess. When the new duke marries (or if he is already married) the old duke's wife can no longer use simply "Duchess of X".
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  #288  
Old 06-11-2013, 02:45 PM
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I've got one small correction and a general query. Marina was already a Princess in her own right. Alice, Duchess of Gloucester asked the Queen as you say to be called Princess Alice, and the Queen agreed as she didnt wish to be called Dowager. I think that she would have been dowager whether her son was married or not.

In the Nobility, a Duchess (or any other level of nobility) becomes a Dowager upon the death of her husband. Otherwise it looks like she is the wife of her son. They are not the Duke and Duchess of X - they would be the Duke and Dowager Duchess of X. She could, of course, be known as "Mary-Ann", Duchess of X.

Why would it be different for a royal?
It isn't any different, just as you say if Catherine were to continue to be styled as The Duchess of Cornwall and Cambridge when her son is automatically The Duke of Cambridge, it would look like they were married. She could drop the Cambridge and still be The Duchess of Cornwall as her son does not hold that title, that scenario is unlikely however.
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  #289  
Old 06-11-2013, 02:54 PM
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The instant that her husband dies a duchess becomes the dowager duchess.

However, until the new duke gets married she is able to continue to go by "Duchess of X" because there is no new duchess. When the new duke marries (or if he is already married) the old duke's wife can no longer use simply "Duchess of X".
thank you - we're on the same page - probably Debrett's
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  #290  
Old 06-11-2013, 03:13 PM
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Cepe, the "Princess" title is out of question here.
After marina's husband died, she continued to be called The Duchess of Kent.
At the wedding of the Duke of Kent, the commentator referred to her as The Duchess of Kent throughout the ceremony and specifically announced "From today, the Duchess of Kent will be known as Princess Marina"
I will search for that video and post it.
You see the coronation potraits..They were labelled "The Duchess of Kent, with her children Duke of Kent, Prince Michael and Princess Alexandra of Kent".
That means, according to court styling, from the day of her son's wedding, Marina would be Dowager Duchess of Kent, but instead of that was styled Princess. Her Greek titles were totally irrelevant (from her wedding day to her son's wedding day) as she was referred to only and only as The Duchess of Kent and never as Princess Marina during that period.
In Alice's case, her son was already married by the time her husband died, so she immediately got into "Dowager" category, which she converted into "Princess" with QUeen's permission.
Even Camilla can be made a "Princess" by William after Charles' death..One need not be a blood princess for that. They are already Princesses by marriage, but not styled so.
So as Ish said, they become Dowagers the moment their husbands die, but they can withhold the "Dowager"tag till their son gets married..
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  #291  
Old 06-11-2013, 04:08 PM
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Marina and Alice are exceptions, not rules, as far as the Princess goes. Marina was a Princess of Greece and Denmark prior to her marriage. When her son got married she didn't want to be known as a dowager duchess, so she reverted to her Greek titles (Princess) while also keeping the titles she had gained by marriage (HRH Duchess of Kent) by combining the two (HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent).

In Alice's case she was never a Princess in her own right, but the Queen granted her the right to be known as Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester, because she too didn't want to be known as a dowager duchess. It is possible that if Catherine wishes to be known as Princess Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge at some point during her widowhood instead of as the Dowager Duchess she may be given permission to do so, but it is not a guarantee.
True, but Marina also received permission to style herself this way because she was not a Princess of the UK in her own right. Technically, she was HRH The Princess George.
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Old 06-11-2013, 05:24 PM
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thank you - we're on the same page - probably Debrett's
Yes! Debrett's is awesome like that.

Actually the page on Debrett's really makes the issue clear.
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Originally Posted by Debretts
Officially the widow of a duke is known as 'The Dowager Duchess of Norfolk' (unless there is already a dowager duchess in that family still living in which case the widow of the junior duke is known by her forename, eg Anne, Duchess of Norfolk).

In practice, many widows prefer to use their forename in place of 'Dowager'. If in doubt, use of the forename is recommended.
If the present holder of the dukedom is unmarried, the widow of the previous duke does not use the term of either The Dowager Duchess of Norfolk, or Anne, Duchess of Norfolk, but continues to be known as The Duchess of Norfolk.
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Her Greek titles were totally irrelevant (from her wedding day to her son's wedding day) as she was referred to only and only as The Duchess of Kent and never as Princess Marina during that period.
In Alice's case, her son was already married by the time her husband died, so she immediately got into "Dowager" category, which she converted into "Princess" with QUeen's permission.
Even Camilla can be made a "Princess" by William after Charles' death..One need not be a blood princess for that. They are already Princesses by marriage, but not styled so.
You're mostly right here, but there's a few things...

Marina's Greek titles were irrelevant within Britain from the day of her marriage to the day of her son's wedding because in 1932 George V revoked the right of foreign nobles to use their titles while in Britain. If a foreign noble or royal is living in Britain they have to have the permission of the monarch in order to use the title. From the time of her marriage to the time of her son's wedding Marina was unable to use her foreign titles (Princess of Greece and Denmark) in Britain because she didn't have the permission of the monarch to do so.

Neither Alice nor Marina were created Princesses of the United Kingdom (or any variation thereof). Marina was given permission to use her Greek title, while Alice was given permission to use her given name in place of her husband's given name (she was officially HRH Princess Henry, Duchess of Gloucester). In Marina's case what happened was she sought out permission to use her foreign titles in combination with her British titles. In Alice's case I think what happened is she sought permission to be Princess Alice on the grounds that if she wasn't allowed to be styled as such she would be the only HRH without a princely title at the time.

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True, but Marina also received permission to style herself this way because she was not a Princess of the UK in her own right. Technically, she was HRH The Princess George.
Marina had to receive permission to use her Greece titles because foreign titles of nobility cannot be used in Britain without permission from the monarch. She was by birth Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark, but from the time of her marriage she could not use that title as a British citizen. She was, by her marriage, HRH The Princess George, Duchess of Kent. She received permission to use her Greece titles in combination with her British ones, making her HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent.
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  #293  
Old 06-11-2013, 05:30 PM
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Cepe, the "Princess" title is out of question here.
After marina's husband died, she continued to be called The Duchess of Kent.
At the wedding of the Duke of Kent, the commentator referred to her as The Duchess of Kent throughout the ceremony and specifically announced "From today, the Duchess of Kent will be known as Princess Marina"
I will search for that video and post it.
You see the coronation potraits..They were labelled "The Duchess of Kent, with her children Duke of Kent, Prince Michael and Princess Alexandra of Kent".
That means, according to court styling, from the day of her son's wedding, Marina would be Dowager Duchess of Kent, but instead of that was styled Princess. Her Greek titles were totally irrelevant (from her wedding day to her son's wedding day) as she was referred to only and only as The Duchess of Kent and never as Princess Marina during that period.
In Alice's case, her son was already married by the time her husband died, so she immediately got into "Dowager" category, which she converted into "Princess" with QUeen's permission.
Even Camilla can be made a "Princess" by William after Charles' death..One need not be a blood princess for that. They are already Princesses by marriage, but not styled so.
So as Ish said, they become Dowagers the moment their husbands die, but they can withhold the "Dowager"tag till their son gets married..
Thanks for this Vkrish (I think?) but I said initially that they become Dowagers the moment their husbands die, and Ish agreed with me.

Sometimes, its not so much what we all say, but perhaps the way that we say it.
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  #294  
Old 06-11-2013, 05:40 PM
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Yup, Cepe.. And nice explanation, Ish.
But to be frank I am not impressed by these two women shunning "Dowager Duchess" styling.
When you are a Duchess, you are a Duchess. When you are a Dowager, you are a Dowager.
I dont understand whats there to be ashamed/embarassed in that..It has a grace in its own way.
Anyway I hardly find fault with those two women, whom I see as an epitome of loyal-royal-brides, whose qualities and virtues have never since been and probably will never ever be emulated so well by these fast-age fairy/free-spirited/angel princesses..
So I excuse them for this minor "tantrum"..
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  #295  
Old 06-11-2013, 05:48 PM
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Thanks for this Vkrish (I think?) but I said initially that they become Dowagers the moment their husbands die, and Ish agreed with me.

Sometimes, its not so much what we all say, but perhaps the way that we say it.
I think what Vkrish is trying to say is not so much that you were wrong (you're not), but that the dowager title is complicated.

The moment that the Duke dies, his wife is the Dowager Duchess. However, if the new Duke is not married the new Dowager Duchess continues to be called The Duchess of X. It is only when the new Duke is married that her styling changes - typically either to The Dowager Duchess of X or Y, Duchess of X.

So, basically John Smith is The 1st Duke of Wherever. He marries Jane Doe, making her Jane The Duchess of Wherever. John and Jane have a son, Jack Smith. John dies, making Jack The 2nd Duke of Wherever, but as he's unmarried his mother continues to go be The Duchess of Wherever. Then one day he gets married to Anne Brown. Anne becomes The Duchess of Wherever, while Jane begins to go by either The Dowager Duchess of Wherever or Jane Smith, Duchess of Wherever.
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Old 06-11-2013, 05:55 PM
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Marina had to receive permission to use her Greece titles because foreign titles of nobility cannot be used in Britain without permission from the monarch. She was by birth Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark, but from the time of her marriage she could not use that title as a British citizen. She was, by her marriage, HRH The Princess George, Duchess of Kent. She received permission to use her Greece titles in combination with her British ones, making her HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent.
Marina did not receive a royal warrant recognizing her Greek title in the UK by The Sovereign. With marriage, she automatically lost her right to be styled as a Princess of Greece & Denmark. She simply received permission to style herself as if she were born a Princess of the UK as the widow of a royal duke.

The same applied to Alice. Their title or style before marrying a Prince of the UK was irrelevant as they were still Princesses of the UK by marriage and were granted the use of a style in their own right by The Sovereign.

They were dowager duchesses in title as widows of Dukes, but were still Princesses in rank as HRH.
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Old 06-11-2013, 06:00 PM
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Yup, Cepe.. And nice explanation, Ish.
But to be frank I am not impressed by these two women shunning "Dowager Duchess" styling.
When you are a Duchess, you are a Duchess. When you are a Dowager, you are a Dowager.
I dont understand whats there to be ashamed/embarassed in that..It has a grace in its own way.
Anyway I hardly find fault with those two women, whom I see as an epitome of loyal-royal-brides, whose qualities and virtues have never been and probably will never ever be emulated so well..
So I excuse them for this minor "tantrum"..
According to Debrett's it's common for women to not use the dowager styling, instead they go by X, Duchess of Y.

In terms of why Marina and Alice both shunned (as you put it) the dowager statues, I think it's actually easy to understand. Marina was widowed really young; her husband died when she was 36. When her son married she was only 55. Both are rather young ages to be considered a dowager, so instead she asked to be considered a Princess.

In the case of Alice... Well, I would imagine it would be hard to be the only one (minus Wallis, who is a special case) to be a dowager and not a Princess. George V had 5 children who survived to adulthood; the Duke of Windsor, George V, Mary, Princess Royal, the Duke of Gloucester, and the Duke of Kent. At the time of the DoG's death, George V's wife was the Queen Mother, the Princess Royal had been a princess (I believe she had already died), and the DoK's wife, Marina, had been given permission to use her Greek titles (who I believe had also died). Thus the only two women of that generation who weren't known as princesses (or as a Queen) were Alice and Wallis... Can you blame Alice for not wanting to be left on the same level as Wallis?
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Old 06-11-2013, 06:09 PM
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I highly doubt Alice was thinking about Wallis in making her request to The Queen. The fact is her daughter-in-law had become The Duchess of Gloucester automatically with her husband's death and she did not want to be styled as a Dowager Duchess.

Whether she was "Princess Alice" in style or not, she was royal as HRH. Wallis was not.
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Old 06-11-2013, 06:20 PM
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Marina did not receive a royal warrant recognizing her Greek title in the UK by The Sovereign. With marriage, she automatically lost her right to be styled as a Princess of Greece & Denmark. She simply received permission to style herself as if she were born a Princess of the UK as the widow of a royal duke.
The same applied to Alice. Their title or style before marrying a Prince of the UK was irrelevant as they were still Princesses of the UK by marriage and were granted the use of a style in their own right by The Sovereign.
They were dowager duchesses in title as widows of Dukes, but were still Princesses in rank as HRH.
So all they asked her was to let them style themselves Princess Marina/Alice in place of their original "Princess George/Henry"..

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I highly doubt Alice was thinking about Wallis in making her request to The Queen. The fact is her daughter-in-law had become The Duchess of Gloucester automatically with her husband's death and she did not want to be styled as a Dowager Duchess.
Whether she was "Princess Alice" in style or not, she was royal as HRH. Wallis was not.
I too agree that she would not be comparing herself to Wallis, but just that she didnt want to be left out among the three sister-in-laws..
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Old 06-11-2013, 06:36 PM
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I have read in the case of Marina her use of Princess was a reversion to her Greek titles. That a royal warrant wasn't issued doesn't mean that it wasn't - I think what happened was that she had already been Princess Marina and at her still young age she didn't want to become known as a Dowager, so she asked to be known as Princess Marina again, and the Queen simply let it be known that it was her desire that she do such (similar to the situation with Louise and James).

As for Alice, while I don't think she compared herself to Wallis I do think Wallis not having any princely titles was a factor here. There were 4 wives of the sons of George V, and at the time of her husband's death Alice and Wallis were the only two who didn't the right to use a princely title in their own right (and while Wallis didn't legally have an HRH she did use the HRH from the day of her marriage until the day she died). I do think that that, combined with the fact that Marina had been allowed to be Princess Marina is what influenced Alice to ask to be Princess Alice.
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