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  #201  
Old 09-26-2007, 08:02 PM
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Be fair, we have a terribly biased press.
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  #202  
Old 09-26-2007, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by spain55 View Post
Do you think HM would issue Letters Patent allowing them the use of HRH Prince/Prince, which they would have been entitled to had Charles ascended the throne? Also, it's interesting to note that any children born to Wiliam and Harry (save the eldest son of William) will not be entitled to the use of HRH Prince/Princess until and if Charles ascends.
No, I doubt she would be so inclined. If William marries and has children, the succession is secured and Harry's children are free to live a more private life.
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  #203  
Old 09-27-2007, 01:54 AM
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With respect to Camilla , my understanding (and I invite critique on what I am going to say) is that HRH The Duchess of Cornwall is the style chosen for her and not her legal title. According to the Department of Constitutional Affairs [publ. in The Sunday Times. 03.04.2005], upon her marriage to the Prince of Wales, she became legally HRH The Princess Charles or HRH The Princess of Wales. According to the same source, when Charles accedes to the Throne, she will become legally HM The Queen.

This is a very interesting situation and I say that because, throughout Europe, the reverse is true. There are cases of princes or princeses (eg consorts) who are styled as such by courtesy, but with no statutory or constitutional backing of their "title", while in Camilla's case, her legal title is higher than (the status of) her style. We all know, of course, that this was a shrewd, conscious decision of the palace to prevent the public's mind from associating her with the late Diana. In theory, however, she could demand to be addressed by her legal title, even though she would never dare do so for it would be an insult to The Queen and could also be perceived as an insult by the British people who have extremely fond memories of Diana.

Interestingly, The Queen decided that Camilla be only 4th in the line of precedence among royal ladies after herself, Princess Anne and Princess Alexandra.

In the very hypothetical setting that:
1. Charles predeceases his wife before acceding to the Throne, and
2. Prince William gets elevated by The Queen to Prince of Wales (and therefore Duke of Cornwall), in which case his wife (if married at the time) shall be The Princess of Wales (and The Duchess of Cornwall),
then, insofar as style is concerned and as a logical sequel, Camilla would, at a minimum be styled as HRH Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall (unlikely) or HRH Princess Camilla or HRH Princess Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall - but she will no more be The Duchess of Cornwall since Prince Willliam's wife would be The Duchess of Corwall.

In a more likely hypothetical setting that:
1. Charles accedes to the Throne, and
2. Prince William does not get elevated to Prince of Wales (and thus Duke of Cornwall) to prevent competition between his wife's title and that of Camilla
and, then
3. Charles predeceases his wife,
Camilla will retain her style of HRH The Duchess of Cornwall.

Insofar as form is concerned, the styles Princess Alice, Princess Camilla, Princess Marina etc (despite lack of statutory backing of these titles) are not in conflict with precedent and these personages cannot be mistaken for British-born princesses of the blood royal because, even though the title prince/ss in usually restricted to children and grand children of a king, in their case it (the title) is preceded by the capitalized definite article The (e.g. The Princess Anne, The Prince Andrew, The Prince Edward, The Princess Margaret etc).
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  #204  
Old 09-27-2007, 09:40 AM
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Camilla is legally "HRH The Princess Charles" as the wife of a son of the Sovereign. In accordance with common law, she shares all of the titles and peerages granted to her husband, which includes Princess of Wales and Countess of Chester, Duchess of Cornwall and Rothesay, et. al.

Her style, at the present time, is HRH The Duchess of Cornwall with the consent of The Sovereign. Although she is entitled to use the style of HRH The Princess of Wales, she has chosen to be known by her ducal title instead. Regardless of what her style is, she is a princess of the UK by marriage.

If Charles predeceases her, she would remain a princess of the UK by marriage as a widow. Since there would not be a new Duchess for many years to come, it is likely she would simply remain HRH The Duchess of Cornwall.
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  #205  
Old 09-27-2007, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
If Charles predeceases her, she would remain a princess of the UK by marriage as a widow. Since there would not be a new Duchess for many years to come, it is likely she would simply remain HRH The Duchess of Cornwall.
In such a case of Charles predeceasing The Queen, William would become Heir Apparent and automatically be HRH The Duke of Cornwall. So The Queen would probably have to do something like she did with Princess Alice, and make Camilla HRH Princess Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall to distinguish her from the new Duke of Cornwall. William would have to be The Duke of Cornwall on Charles's death. It would be automatic.
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  #206  
Old 09-27-2007, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio View Post
In such a case of Charles predeceasing The Queen, William would become Heir Apparent and automatically be HRH The Duke of Cornwall. So The Queen would probably have to do something like she did with Princess Alice, and make Camilla HRH Princess Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall to distinguish her from the new Duke of Cornwall. William would have to be The Duke of Cornwall on Charles's death. It would be automatic.
William is not the eldest son and heir to The Sovereign, so he cannot become Duke of Cornwall if his father predeceases him. As the new heir to the throne, The Queen would create him Prince of Wales.

If William is married and has a young son, he would become the new Duke of Cornwall once William became King after The Queen died. At that point, he would probably grant Camilla the style and title of Princess or grant her a lifetime dukedom of her own.
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  #207  
Old 09-27-2007, 12:53 PM
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Even if Prince Charles died before his mother William couldn't be Duke of Cornwall. The Duke of Cornwall title is reserved for the eldest SON of the monarch who is heir to the throne. It's automatic if those terms are met, but those are the only terms.
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  #208  
Old 09-29-2007, 01:28 AM
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Janet W. on some boards?

So William would officially be created "Prince of Wales?" Right now he's just William of Wales or William Windsor?
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  #209  
Old 09-29-2007, 01:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Russophile View Post
Janet W. on some boards?

So William would officially be created "Prince of Wales?" Right now he's just William of Wales or William Windsor?
Right now he is Prince William of Wales, or in some cases William Windsor or William Wales. Assuming the Queen dies before the current Prince of Wales, he will immediately become Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, etc. The new King will have to create him Prince of Wales by letters patent (probably shortly before the coronation, given the examples of George V and Edward VIII).
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  #210  
Old 09-29-2007, 08:27 PM
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Thanks to branchg & Janet for explaining about the Duke of Cornwall title.
If this horrible scenario happens and Prince Charles dies before The Queen, Prince William remains just HRH Prince William unless she creates him Prince of Wales and until he succeeds to the Throne. A question remains: Would Prince William become Heir Apparent, or is that distinction only for an eldest son too?
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  #211  
Old 09-29-2007, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio View Post
If this horrible scenario happens and Prince Charles dies before The Queen, Prince William remains just HRH Prince William unless she creates him Prince of Wales and until he succeeds to the Throne. A question remains: Would Prince William become Heir Apparent, or is that distinction only for an eldest son too?
He would be the heir apparent, as that just refers to someone who has a claim to the throne that cannot be displaced by the birth of anyone.

Were the Prince of Wales and the Duke of Edinburgh to predecease the Queen William would become Duke of Edinburgh.

Heraldica addresses this in their FAQ's, I just found.

alt.talk.royalty FAQ: British royalty and nobility

Quote:
If Prince Charles dies in the lifetime of his mother the Queen, all of the peerages he holds (as heir apparent) would revert to the Crown. No one inherits them, not even his son Prince William. Following Prince Charles's death, HM The Queen could make her grandson, Prince William, "Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester" and these would be his for life or until he succeeded to the Throne. Prince Charles's other titles (Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, etc...) would not be given to or inherited by Prince William as these are reserved for the oldest son of the Sovereign.
I also found out that it's possible for a female to be heir apparent, which I never realized.

Quote:
It is possible for a woman to be heir apparent, under the following circumstances. Suppose king X has an eldest son Y, and Y has an only daughter Z. Suppose that Y dies while X is still reigning: then Z becomes heir apparent, because no one can ever displace her in the order of succession.
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  #212  
Old 09-29-2007, 11:25 PM
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I should think a female could also be heir apparent to a postmenopausal Queen Regnant. I mean, if Princess Anne were the Queen's only child, it'd be a heck of a stretch to call her the heir presumptive now.

This was pretty much the premise of the Princess Diaries books; the ruling Prince of Genovia was rendered infertile after cancer therapy so his daughter was going to be his only child. Goodness knows what they'd do nowadays with sperm banking and surrogate parenthood and so on, though.
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  #213  
Old 10-01-2007, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by wbenson View Post
Were the Prince of Wales and the Duke of Edinburgh to predecease the Queen William would become Duke of Edinburgh.
Heraldica addresses this in their FAQ's, I just found.
alt.talk.royalty FAQ: British royalty and nobility

I also found out that it's possible for a female to be heir apparent, which I never realized.
I thought that Edward was to be Duke of Edinburgh. I thought that was a title conveyed upon the Duke and not hereditary.
I thought that they created females heir apparent when Victoria was in line to the throne.
(I'll go look at the link now! )

Holy Cow wbenson! What a WEALTH of information! Thank you!!
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  #214  
Old 10-01-2007, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Russophile View Post
I thought that Edward was to be Duke of Edinburgh. I thought that was a title conveyed upon the Duke and not hereditary.
I thought that they created females heir apparent when Victoria was in line to the throne.
(I'll go look at the link now! )
No, Princess Victoria of Kent was just Heiress Presumptive like her great-great-granddaughter Princess Elizabeth of York. Even though Victoria's father died, negating the possibility of her being ousted by a brother, there was still a chance her uncle William IV could have a kid and any son or daughter of his would have taken a higher claim than her.
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  #215  
Old 10-02-2007, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Russophile View Post
I thought that Edward was to be Duke of Edinburgh. I thought that was a title conveyed upon the Duke and not hereditary.
I thought that they created females heir apparent when Victoria was in line to the throne.
(I'll go look at the link now! )

Holy Cow wbenson! What a WEALTH of information! Thank you!!
The Dukedom of Edinburgh passes to the eldest son or grandson like any other peerage. If Charles did not survive his father, William would become the new Duke of Edinburgh until he became King. At that point, the title would merge with the Crown and be available again to be recreated for Prince Edward.

The same scenario applies to Charles. He inherits his father's titles as eldest son and can recreate them once he is King.
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  #216  
Old 10-02-2007, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
The Dukedom of Edinburgh passes to the eldest son or grandson like any other peerage. If Charles did not survive his father, William would become the new Duke of Edinburgh until he became King. At that point, the title would merge with the Crown and be available again to be recreated for Prince Edward.

The same scenario applies to Charles. He inherits his father's titles as eldest son and can recreate them once he is King.
I also remember reading that when Prince Philip passes and his title, Duke of Edinburgh, reverts to the Crown, it will be given to Prince Edward.
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  #217  
Old 10-02-2007, 03:04 PM
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We have been discussing the Duchy of Cornwall and it's succession path within the aristocracy.

Assuming it is correct that should Prince Charles die that Prince William would NOT become the Duke of Cornwall, that only his oldest son could, it is my understanding that a great deal of money comes from the Duchy, where would the money go and who would have control of it?
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  #218  
Old 10-02-2007, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by diamondBrg View Post
We have been discussing the Duchy of Cornwall and it's succession path within the aristocracy.

Assuming it is correct that should Prince Charles die that Prince William would NOT become the Duke of Cornwall, that only his oldest son could, it is my understanding that a great deal of money comes from the Duchy, where would the money go and who would have control of it?
I think the Duchy of Cornwall reverts to the Crown in the case of there not being an Heir Apparent/Eldest Son of the Monarch, as in the case of Prince Charles predeceasing Prince William and Her Majesty. Prince William would be Heir Apparent and could be made Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester. The Duchy funds are administered by a council. The issue of there being no Heir Apparent/eldest son to be Duke of Cornwall arose also with Princess Elizabeth. There was a big debate in Parliament about how to pay her, and the Duchy came up for question, but in the end she and Philip were granted Civil List allowance and money to renovate Clarence House, and the Duchy of Cornwall remained with the Crown as it had been since the last Duke of Cornwall became Edward vIII in 1936.
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  #219  
Old 10-02-2007, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by diamondBrg View Post
We have been discussing the Duchy of Cornwall and it's succession path within the aristocracy.

Assuming it is correct that should Prince Charles die that Prince William would NOT become the Duke of Cornwall, that only his oldest son could, it is my understanding that a great deal of money comes from the Duchy, where would the money go and who would have control of it?
The income is paid to the State directly through the Exchequer if there is no Duke of Cornwall. Although technically The Sovereign has the right to ask for the money to be paid, it must be approved by Parliament.
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  #220  
Old 10-02-2007, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by diamondBrg View Post
I also remember reading that when Prince Philip passes and his title, Duke of Edinburgh, reverts to the Crown, it will be given to Prince Edward.
The plan is for Charles to re-create the dukedom of Edinburgh for his brother, Prince Edward, once he becomes King and his titles merge with the Crown.

Of course, he is under no obligation to do so as the fount of honour, but that was the announced intention after Prince Philip and The Queen have passed on.
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