Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[BeatrixFan]

She's got no right to the surname Windsor but she could use it as alot of divorcees use their marital surname after the split. In Marie Christine's case, I think she'd go back to being a von.

 

[wbenson]

If Queen Elizabeth II of the UK abdicated, she may also choose to be addressed as HM The Queen Mother of the UK, rather than revert to her title before accession.

That would require an Act of Parliament (which would probably be easy since the abdication does too), as it would grant the style and title of a Queen to a person no longer entitled to it. She couldn't simply choose to be so.

When Edward VIII abdicated, he immediately became HRH Prince Edward (and was announced as so for his radio address), just as the Queen would become HRH Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Edinburgh.

 

[magnik]

That would require an Act of Parliament (which would probably be easy since the abdication does too), as it would grant the style and title of a Queen to a person no longer entitled to it. She couldn't simply choose to be so.

When Edward VIII abdicated, he immediately became HRH Prince Edward (and was announced as so for his radio address), just as the Queen would become HRH Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Edinburgh.

Do you think that after so many years of reign when HM Queen Elizabeth II f.ex. abdicate people will start call her HRH Princess Elizabeth or the Duches of Edinburgh... She always will be HM Queen Elizabeth II.


About Queen Juliana after that what is write on wikipedia after her abdication she was was officially styled as Her Majesty Juliana, Queen Mother of the Netherlands, but she wished to be known as HRH Princess Juliana of the Netherlands.

 

[wbenson]

Do you think that after so many years of reign when HM Queen Elizabeth II f.ex. abdicate people will start call her HRH Princess Elizabeth or the Duches of Edinburgh... She always will be HM Queen Elizabeth II.

Oh, I know that's what people would call her, it's just not what she would be without an Act of Parliament or a section in the abdication act granting it to her.

 

[magnik]

Oh, I know that's what people would call her, it's just not what she would be without an Act of Parliament or a section in the abdication act granting it to her.

Right Different wishes of people and the law.

 

[sinulord]

Right Different wishes of people and the law.

Yes, but the law may also have to go hand in hand with the wishes of the people.

That would require an Act of Parliament (which would probably be easy since the abdication does too), as it would grant the style and title of a Queen to a person no longer entitled to it. She couldn't simply choose to be so. When Edward VIII abdicated, he immediately became HRH Prince Edward (and was announced as so for his radio address), just as the Queen would become HRH Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Edinburgh.

But wont they give her the option before the enactment of the new title? I'm sure the British parliament (and whoever else is in charge of this matter) would be courteous enough to do so.

 

[wbenson]

But wont they give her the option before the enactment of the new title? I'm sure the British parliament (and whoever else is in charge of this matter) would be courteous enough to do so.

I'm sure they would, but they wouldn't be obligated to do so.

 

[Stefan]

About Queen Juliana after that what is write on wikipedia after her abdication she was was officially styled as Her Majesty Juliana, Queen Mother of the Netherlands, but she wished to be known as HRH Princess Juliana of the Netherlands.

She was styled as HRH Princess Juliana of the Netherlands after her abdication. the same as her mother Wilhelmina. Only after the died the are referred as HM Queen of the Netherlands. I think in the case of Wilhelmina there was even a decree from Juliana. In the case of Juliana she is only reffered as HM Queen since after the funeral. You will see that on the offiicial memorial page she is referred as Princess Juliana in the Press Releases.

It is also in the Act of the membeship of the Royal House that an abdicated monarch will become HRH Prince/Princess. So if Beatrix abdicates she becomes HRH Princess Beatrix.

 

[RoyalProtocol]

She was styled as HRH Princess Juliana of the Netherlands after her abdication. the same as her mother Wilhelmina. Only after the died the are referred as HM Queen of the Netherlands. I think in the case of Wilhelmina there was even a decree from Juliana. In the case of Juliana she is only reffered as HM Queen since after the funeral. You will see that on the offiicial memorial page she is referred as Princess Juliana in the Press Releases.

It is also in the Act of the membeship of the Royal House that an abdicated monarch will become HRH Prince/Princess. So if Beatrix abdicates she becomes HRH Princess Beatrix.

In the UK court circular Queen Elizabeth II was represented at the Funeral of Queen Juliana of The Netherlands, not at that of Princess Juliana, perhaps it reverted on death

 

[Jo of Palatine]

In the UK court circular Queen Elizabeth II was represented at the Funeral of Queen Juliana of The Netherlands, not at that of Princess Juliana, perhaps it reverted on death

IIRC on the funeral the highest title is used one had possessed in life - because the generations to come will of course remember her as queen Juliana, the predessessor of queen Beatrix. It makes sense that in life there can only be one queen/king regnant - and that is Beatrix at the moment. But in death there are amounts of late queen/King regnants...

 

[Stefan]

IIRC on the funeral the highest title is used one had possessed in life - because the generations to come will of course remember her as queen Juliana, the predessessor of queen Beatrix. It makes sense that in life there can only be one queen/king regnant - and that is Beatrix at the moment. But in death there are amounts of late queen/King regnants...

But Juliana was reffered to as Princess Juliana at the funeral ceremony.

Here you have the order of Service from the funeral.
The Dutch Royal House

Also if you look at the Press releases it is always Princess The Dutch Royal House

Only after the funeral she is called Queen.

 

[HRH Queen Mary]

to beatrixfan

The Diana Ring is not at all reliable and there is absolutely no evidence to support what they're saying. They are totally deluded - Prince William has never publicly said he'd give that woman her HRH back.

I believe the late Princess of Wales deserves the respect as she do not deserve being called "that woman" . I believe that he actually said it privately, according to Hello's intervie to andrew morton. It was more of a reassurance from a little boy to her beloved mother. It is William's predicament and we cant do anything but respect it.

 

[wbenson]

It is William's predicament and we cant do anything but respect it.

We most certainly can. If it's true (which I have absolutely no reason to believe that it is, given the lack of sources and inclusion in the Diana whatever), I would have little to no respect for it whatsoever. Styles and titles are for the living, not the dead.

What's to say it would stop there? Why not unbury her and parade her through the streets every year so that the rest of the family can throw themselves on their knees in sackcloth and ashes to weep and ask for forgiveness for taking anything away from her in life? If she was well-embalmed, why not pull a John XXIII and put her on display for the world to come and lament?

 

[cmkrcwi]

Wasn't there a Spanish or Portuguese king who dug up the corpse of his dead wife and crowned her Queen?

 

[Avalon]

Wasn't there a Spanish or Portuguese king who dug up the corpse of his dead wife and crowned her Queen?

You must be talking about Ines de Castro, the wife (or alleged wife) of King Pedro I of Protugal. (thanks to Marengo for initial information about her)
Ines came to the Portuguese Court as maid to Constance of Castille, the wife of Pring Pedro. Pedro fall in love with Ines, and after his first wife died, he refused to marry anyone but Ines. Even after Ines was send to exle by King Alfonso IV, Pedro followed her and they continued to live together. After several failed attempts to separate them, King Alfonso ordered Ines's death.

Pedro never married again and after becoming King of Portugal in 1357, he stated that he had married Ines, who was thus a lawful Queen (his word was the only proof of the marriage though). Pedro ordered to exhume Ines's body and forced the court to swear allegiance to her as a Queen.
Ines was later buried at the Monastery of Alcobaca, where her coffin can still be seen, opposite Pedro's so that, according to the legend, at the Last Judgment Pedro and Inês can look at each other as they rise from their graves. Both marble coffins are exquisitely sculpted with scenes from their lives and a promise by Pedro that they would be together até ao fim do mundo (until the end of the world).

 

[branchg]

No, that is not the case. Sophie would only be officially addressed as Princess Sophie if she had been born a princess ie. a princess of the blood royal. Since she is not a princess by birth, she can only take on Prince Edward's title, and will keep it till either death or divorce.

If Queen Elizabeth II of the UK abdicated, she may also choose to be addressed as HM The Queen Mother of the UK, rather than revert to her title before accession.

If the case of divorce, she no longer has any right to the name Windsor.

Sophie automatically became "HRH The Princess Edward" as the wife of a son of the Sovereign on her wedding day. Since her husband was created The Earl of Wessex by The Queen, she takes her style as HRH The Countess of Wessex, but remains a princess by marriage.

The Queen could not be known as anything other than "HRH The Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Edinburgh" upon abdication, unless the Act provided for a different style or title.

Marie-Christine would be entitled to the style of "Marie-Christine, Princess Michael of Kent" with a divorce, the same as Diana and Sarah and consistent with the style of former wives of peers.

 

[RoyalProtocol]

It seems other countries have no problems with an abdcated King styles as King for example King Léopold III. of the Belgians and in Luxemburg both Grand Duke Henri and Grand Duchess Charlotte where styled as Grand Duke/Grand Duchess.

Though we can be quite sure that the UK does have a serious issue with titles after an abdication!

 

[Warren]

Somehow we've got well off track into lists of European Queens and Russian Empresses.
Those posts have been removed to get the thread back to the topic of British titles.

thanks,
Warren
British Forums moderator

 

[Melania]

I have a question about the surname Mountbatten-Windsor that I was hoping someone could answer for me...

Is the bolded part below from wiki.com about the surname Mountbatten-windsor correct???

Seemingly the only people who would officially hold the surname (Mountbatten-Windsor) under the Order-in-Council would be any male-line great-grandchildren of the Queen not in direct line to the throne, i.e. the children of any sons of the Duke of York and Earl of Wessex. Similarly, in the event that any male-line granddaughter of the Queen were to have a child whilst unwed. Also, when (and if) Charles becomes king, any male-line-great-grandchildren that he would have who were not in direct line to the throne would also use the surname Mountbatten-Windsor.

Here is the link Mountbatten-Windsor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks if you can answer my question...

 

[branchg]

The surname applies to any descendants of The Queen and Prince Philip who do not hold the style of Royal Highness and rank of Prince/Princess of the UK, regardless of their place in the line of succession.

 

[rockfish]

This may sound like a stupid question but I'm not familiar with the British monarchy and it has been spinning in my brain for quite a while haha. If Harry would marry Chelsy, or any other girl, what would their titles be?

Thanks a lot

 

[wbenson]

This may sound like a stupid question but I'm not familiar with the British monarchy and it has been spinning in my brain for quite a while haha. If Harry would marry Chelsy, or any other girl, what would their titles be?

Thanks a lot

Right now, Princess Henry of Wales. That's without him being given a peerage of any kind, though.

 

[branchg]

The tradition would be for The Sovereign (whether The Queen or a future King Charles III) to create him a Duke the morning of his wedding. In that case, his wife would take her style as a Duchess (i.e. HRH The Duchess of Cambridge) with the rank of a Princess (HRH Princess Henry of Wales).

 

[rockfish]

Thanks a lot So is this why Princess Michael of Kent has the name of her husband??!! Hey, I'm starting to look through that whole thing haha. And I've wondered for many years why a woman is called Michael LOL!

 

[cmkrcwi]

I think it's the same as when a woman marries and takes her husband's name. For example Miss Susan Jones marries Mr. Paul Harris and becomes Mrs. Paul Harris.

 

[tommy1716]

Prehaps it's worth making one thing clear, when marrying a royal prince the lady does not get to choose whether or not to be 'princess'. See is titled; Princess (husband's name). Even Diana was offically Princess Charles and not Princess Diana, the media simply called her that and it stuck. Thus when Sarah married Prince Andrew she became, HRH Princess Andrew, Duchess of York, Sophie became HRH Princess Edward, Countess of Wessex. The only royal to marry and receive the title Prince/Princess in thier own right is Prince Phillip but thats a long story. lol.
Also its intresting that only the children of the monarch can be titled HRH The Prince Charles, The Prince Andrew, The Prince Edward, The Princess Ann. Grandchildren of the monarch are simly Prince/Princess, eg HRH Princess Beatrice, HRH Prince William.

Thats all folks.

 

[branchg]

Diana was never "HRH The Princess Charles" because her title as the wife of The Prince of Wales took precedence over all others. She was always and only "HRH The Princess of Wales" while married.

The media did call her "Princess Diana" which was always incorrect and she often would correct journalists. Later, with separation, the Palace did state it was acceptable to address her as such since she was the mother of a future king.

With divorce, she lost her rank and style through marriage and became "Diana, Princess of Wales". Again, because she was the mother of Prince William, The Queen granted her unique precedence and dignity and permitted her to remain "The Princess" in style, but downgraded by the loss of HRH.

 

[wbenson]

Diana was never "HRH The Princess Charles" because her title as the wife of The Prince of Wales took precedence over all others. She was always and only "HRH The Princess of Wales" while married.

She was both. Titles can be layered over each other (which is why Camilla can be styled Duchess of Cornwall).

 

[pamk]

I was surprised to see Chelsy and Kate seated in the Garter Chapel part of St. George's. The Garter Chapel (where the actual marriage ceremony took place) is very small --- the Royal family sits there and all of the most important guests including the Royals. Shows how important Chelsy and Kate have become.
Kate would not automatically become Princess of Wales if she marries William in the near future. Charles is THE Prince of Wales. Upon his marriage, William
will no doubt be given a ducal title. Kate would probably be: HRH The Duchess of Blahblah (maybe Princess Katherine if the monarch allows the Princess title). But not THE Princess of Wales if Charles is still alive.
When Charles becomes King, the title of the Prince of Wales does not automatically get passed down to William. It is the at the discretion of the
Monarch to award it to the eldest son.

 

[Skydragon]

Kate would not automatically become Princess of Wales if she marries William in the near future. Charles is THE Prince of Wales. Upon his marriage, William will no doubt be given a ducal title. Kate would probably be: HRH The Duchess of Blahblah (maybe Princess Katherine if the monarch allows the Princess title). But not THE Princess of Wales if Charles is still alive.
When Charles becomes King, the title of the Prince of Wales does not automatically get passed down to William. It is the at the discretion of the
Monarch to award it to the eldest son.

Catherine would be Princess William of Wales, not the Princess of Wales.