Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[Osipi]

The thing I find odd is that if Camilla is known as The Princess Consort, it alludes that she is a consort to a Prince. Charles will no longer be a Prince. Lumutqueen is right. Charles and his PR team really made a blunder with this one.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

The thing I find odd is that if Camilla is known as The Princess Consort, it alludes that she is a consort to a Prince. Charles will no longer be a Prince. Lumutqueen is right. Charles and his PR team really made a blunder with this one.

But isn't Philip known as the "Prince Consort?"

 

[Ish]

But isn't Philip known as the "Prince Consort?"

No. The DoE is the consort to the Queen and he is a Prince, making him the Prince consort (note the capitalization) but he is not the Prince Consort. That is a title which was created for Prince Albert and has not been used in Britain since.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

Thanks for the explanation, Ish. If there is a precedent for a Queen to have a "Prince Consort," I don't understand why King Charles couldn't have a "Princess Consort." Of course, Victoria was Queen when she and Albert married, but Charles and Camilla will be married when Charles becomes King.

 

[Osipi]

Thanks for the explanation, Ish. If there is a precedent for a Queen to have a "Prince Consort," I don't understand why King Charles couldn't have a "Princess Consort." Of course, Victoria was Queen when she and Albert married, but Charles and Camilla will be married when Charles becomes King.

It boils down to the fact that in the UK, women take their titles from their spouse. Camilla very well could be known now as The Princess Consort as she is married to a Prince of the UK. She is Princess Charles now. Once Charles becomes King, there will be no other title for Camilla to use legally other than Queen Consort. She did have a choice when she married Charles as he has several titles. Duke of Cornwall is the oldest one he has.

 

[Ish]

Thanks for the explanation, Ish. If there is a precedent for a Queen to have a "Prince Consort," I don't understand why King Charles couldn't have a "Princess Consort." Of course, Victoria was Queen when she and Albert married, but Charles and Camilla will be married when Charles becomes King.

Charles could very well create a title Princess Consort for Camilla if he so wished.

What he cannot do as monarch is strip her of the title Queen Consort - parliament has to do that.

They can go one of three ways:
1. Charles creates a Princess Consort title for Camilla and she would use it instead of the title Queen Consort, while holding both (similar, but different, from her current situation as Princess of Wales/Duchess of Cornwall)
2. Charles creates a Princess Consort title for Camilla and Parliament strips her of her Queen Consort title, essentially creating morganatic marriage in Britain. This becomes trickier when you consider the other realms - does each realm have to introduce such legislature, or is it enough if the UK does so? Personally, I tend to think the former
3. Camilla becomes Queen Consort. The media makes a fuss about it, some people are disappointed or angered, but in general people move on

Personally, I think the best situation is #3. The first two both establish tricky precedents that can effectively end 1000 years of tradition. If Camilla isn't allowed to be Queen then what's it say for future consorts? Furthermore, in not allowing her to be Queen we're creating morganatic marriage - at a time when many other European monarchies are ending morganatic marriages.

Comparing Camilla's situation to that of the DoE or Prince Albert (or other male consorts) is a bit unfair. Women have always taken the titles of their spouses in Britain, men have essentially never done the same. Britain has had 5 undisputed female monarchs, 2 of whom were married to "kings" and who lost a lot of their power and position as such, and the other 3 who were married to "princes" and were able to maintain their positions. The idea of a King consort brings up a whole other set of issues associated with a woman's position in a marriage.

 

[Lumutqueen]

For her to be known as The Princess Consort she has to be The Princess Consort and she cannot be that without being stripped of her automatic title as Queen Consort. No legal language used because this hasn't happened before and I imagine Charles along with all of his PR department are hoping people have forgotten this massive faux paus.

 

[Nico]

I think one of the issue is that some part of the public think that Camilla, as Queen, may replace Queen Elizabeth II, making no difference btw the titles of Queen Regnant and Queen Consort.
Choosing for Camilla the title of HM the Queen Consort (unused but still perfectly exact) is maybe the key ...

 

[cepe]

All these posts and all these threads and so many still do not understand how the BRF is titled and structured.

I think either a Mod (Warren??) or expert poster (Ish, IluvBertie???) should write a definitive piece in layman's terms which could be used as a reference point. And it should be "sticky-ed". Please!!

Sorry to pick out certain bods but they are the ones that sprang immediately to mind. I'm sure there are others out there.

Not managed to sleep for c 30 hours so off to bed - tad tired. Night all.

 

[tommy100]

The whole thing is pure speculation until the times comes, rules have been bent / altered in the past. None of us now what Charles and Camilla are thinking of. Only time will tell

 

[US Royal Watcher]

All these posts and all these threads and so many still do not understand how the BRF is titled and structured...
should write a definitive piece in layman's terms which could be used as a reference point. And it should be "sticky-ed". Please!!

That would be helpful to me. I learn so much from this forum, I thought Philip was Prince Consort. I need to research how Albert got the title of Prince Consort. Good night, Cepe.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

The whole thing is pure speculation until the times comes, rules have been bent / altered in the past. None of us now what Charles and Camilla are thinking of. Only time will tell

I take Charles at his word, he intends for Camilla to become Princess Consort. Those intentions may change. The question is how he intends to do it if Camilla does become Princess Consort.

 

[tommy100]

I take Charles at his word, he intends for Camilla to become Princess Consort. Those intentions may change. The question is how he intends to do it if Camilla does become Princess Consort.

And thats the part that no-one knows and can only be speculated for now. Personally I really can't imagine Charles doing anything to take away / strip Camilla of a title. I think he'll try other ways before havig to formally remove the title legally.

 

[Ish]

That would be helpful to me. I learn so much from this forum, I thought Philip was Prince Consort. I need to research how Albert got the title of Prince Consort. Good night, Cepe.

I think with Albert, the title was created because Victoria wanted to clearly define her husband's title and role. I believe Victoria wanted to create him King Consort but the government said no so instead she created him Prince Consort as a consolation.

 

[Osipi]

All these posts and all these threads and so many still do not understand how the BRF is titled and structured.

Excellent idea! It would really be very helpful in the long run.

I think one reason that a lot of issues are visited and revisited over and over again is because we are constantly getting new members here that have questions. I'd add Lumutqueen to that list too. She taught me so much when I knew absolutely nothing by reading her posts.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

I think with Albert, the title was created because Victoria wanted to clearly define her husband's title and role. I believe Victoria wanted to create him King Consort but the government said no so instead she created him Prince Consort as a consolation.

So it went through Parliament? Do you know if they acted before or after the marriage?

 

[branchg]

I've just looked back at the FAQs on the PoW website about Camilla being Queen...
Will The Duchess become Queen when The Prince becomes King?
As was explained at the time of their wedding in April 2005, it is intended that The Duchess will be known as HRH The Princess Consort when The Prince of Wales accedes to The Throne.

Intended and known? Not exactly legal laguage there really. Only time will tell what happens

The key word is "intended" as the Government made it clear when Charles married Camilla that she would hold equal rank to her husband as HRH and share all of his titles. At her choice, she was styled The Duchess of Cornwall, rather than her senior title Princess of Wales, as a gesture to the memory of the late Princess Diana. This was appropriate given the circumstances and public opinion.

However, once Charles is King, Camilla is automatically HM The Queen. The precedent of 1936 has made it very clear that a morganatic marriage is not possible for The Sovereign without consent from Parliament and the Crown Commonwealth nations, and the wife of The King is automatically Queen and cannot hold a lesser title without legislation being passed.

Now, does that mean it is impossible for Camilla to be styled "HRH The Princess Consort"? No. It simply means legislation would have to be introduced to allow it to happen. The real question is whether any future Prime Minister is prepared to introduce such legislation and whether it would pass. My sense is the answer is no, but it will depend when the time comes.

Camilla cannot hold the rank of Queen and be styled as HRH at the same time. She is either one or the other.

 

[Ish]

So it went through Parliament? Do you know if they acted before or after the marriage?

Government in a British sense doesn't refer to the institution as a whole, like it does in the US, instead it refers to the party in power.

I don't know for certain how it all went down, but I would expect what happened is that at some point Victoria discussed it with her PM who I expect would have discussed it with his cabinet, and they came to the conclusion that Albert wasn't to be king (I don't think they wanted a foreign born man to usurp Victoria's power).

As Victoria didn't make Albert Prince Consort until 1857, I'm not sure how quickly any of this happened. It may be that she wanted to create him King Consort from the start, was shot down, and it took her time to come up with a solution, or it may be that the King Consort was something that came up because she wanted to reward him for the role he'd fulfilled. I'm inclined to think that it was something more of a combination - kind of like the Mountbatten-Windsor thing; it came up periodically until she pushed it and found a solution that worked.

 

[Ish]

...Camilla cannot hold the rank of Queen and be styled as HRH at the same time. She is either one or the other.

While I agree with what you've said overall - and find it to be really well put - you bring up an interesting point regarding styling.

I figured that Charles could, if he wanted, issue LPs creating Camilla Princess Consort while she still held the title Queen Consort, and she would just use the lesser title, similar to the current situation. In such case, as she would be HM The Queen, she couldn't be HRH The Princess Consort. However, could she be HM The Princess Consort?

 

[branchg]

So it went through Parliament? Do you know if they acted before or after the marriage?

It did not require an Act of Parliament, but consent from Victoria's ministers at the time. Albert was created The Prince Consort by Letters Patent and this was purely a courtesy title that had no particular meaning.

The same applied to Philip. He was a Duke of the Realm and HRH by Letters Patent of George VI, but not officially a Prince of the UK. Although Philip himself had no interest in a new title and was perfectly content to be HRH The Duke of Edinburgh, The Queen received consent from her ministers in 1957 to create him a Prince of the UK in his own right with Letters Patent as "HRH The Prince Philip".

 

[branchg]

I guess if Parliament agreed a person can be legally "HM Queen Camilla" but also be created a Princess of the UK with the rank of HRH at the same time, there is certainly nothing to stop The Sovereign from doing that.

But I think it would raise serious objections from constitutional experts, given that there is no precedent for a Queen Consort holding a lesser rank and title at the same time. Camilla wouldn't have any other title to use other than what her husband held, so how could she be called a Princess when her husband is not a Prince?

 

[US Royal Watcher]

Thanks, branchg and Ish. Very interesting.

 

[Osipi]

If I'm not mistaken, if Charles issued a LP to create Camilla Princess Consort, he would be in effect, creating Camilla as a Princess of the UK in her own right. She therefore would have the right to also be known as Princess Camilla. This is what happened to Philip after his wife ascended the throne. Until then, Philip just held the title The Duke of Edinburgh and his wife was Princess Elizabeth, The Duchess of Edinburgh. On becoming Queen, HM created Philip a Prince of the UK in his own right.

On Victoria and Albert, I think although The Prince Consort, Albert had a lot to do with Victoria's reign because she wanted it that way. They had side by side desks. From what I know (which is really quite limited) she involved Albert in just about everything and relied on him.

 

[branchg]

I think it would make more sense for The Queen to issue Letters Patent now creating Camilla a Princess of the UK in her own right. That way, it could be argued that once Charles is King, his wife was a Princess of the UK in her own right and could choose to use her own title at her own choice even though she was automatically Queen.

I mean, why wait?

 

[Osipi]

To me, that would be opening up a huge can of worms. Even the beloved Diana was never a princess in her own right and neither is Sophie.

 

[Skippyboo]

Camilla is a Princess of the UK already because she is married to a Prince of the UK. Just like Kate and Sophie. Unlike Anne, Bea and Eugiene, their Hrh is tied to their marriage. If they leave the marriage, they lose the Hrh like Diana and Fergie.

There isn't a need to make Camilla take a lesser title when she is Queen. She is going to be the highest rank women is the land when Charles is King and act as his consort. If Camilla uses a different name, she is still doing the work of the queen consort. She might as well use her legal title HM The Queen. Charles did the same thing as Camilla and he is going to be HM The King.

 

[Spheno]

I think the best decision is to start call her "Queen-Consort" or "Queen-Consort Camilla" from the first day.

 

[branchg]

To me, that would be opening up a huge can of worms. Even the beloved Diana was never a princess in her own right and neither is Sophie.

I agree. I posted it to point out the ridiculous position of stating "intended" when the fact is she will be Queen automatically and there is no reason whatsoever for her to use a lesser style and title.

Camilla is already married and has the right to share her husband's rank and title when Charles becomes The Sovereign. It's not a popularity contest.

 

[Roslyn]

As Victoria didn't make Albert Prince Consort until 1857, I'm not sure how quickly any of this happened. It may be that she wanted to create him King Consort from the start, was shot down, and it took her time to come up with a solution, or it may be that the King Consort was something that came up because she wanted to reward him for the role he'd fulfilled. I'm inclined to think that it was something more of a combination - kind of like the Mountbatten-Windsor thing; it came up periodically until she pushed it and found a solution that worked.

From the start, Victoria wanted Albert to be King Consort, but Lord Melbourne shot down that idea. She wanted Albert to have rank and precedence immediately after herself, for his lifetime. There was quite a kerfuffle about his allowance and about him being given a peerage. Albert seemed quite happy with the titles he already had. Victoria issued letters patent on 5 March 1840 giving Albert the style and title of HRH which seems to have pacified everyone because as far as I can tell the issue of him being Prince Consort doesn't seem to have been revisited until 1857.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

I think the best decision is to start call her "Queen-Consort" or "Queen-Consort Camilla" from the first day.

In my opinion, the best solution is to call her Her Majesty The Queen from the moment her husband becomes His Majesty The King. It's how things have been working from the past 1000 years.

Whatever happened between The Prince and Princess of Wales, Mrs Parker Bowles, and the Princess' lovers has nothing to do with the traditions of the British Monarchy. Some people have to face the fact that the Monarchy didn't began when Lady Diana Spencer married into the Mountbatten-Windsor family (I'm not saying you are one of those people, Spheno).