Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[branchg]

Dukes of the Blood are styled, most High, most Mighty, and Illustrious Princes...

Well, that is a very formal manner of address that is rarely used except in certain declarations and recital. The appropriate form of address is Your Grace for non-royal dukes, and Your Royal Highness for royal dukes. The same applies to their wives.

The only exception, of course, was for The Duchess of Windsor. She was addressed as Your Grace due to the 1937 Letters Patent of George VI limiting royal rank to The Duke alone.

 

[LauraS3514]

In the list of princesses named after their mothers Artemisia listed

- Mary, Princess Royal (daughter of George V)
Named after her mother, Mary of Teck.

The Princess Royal, Countess of Harewood was christened "Victoria Alexandra Alice Mary", but just as her oldest brother was known as "David" instead of "Edward" in the family, she was always called by the last of her names, and used "Mary" instead of "Victoria" when she entered public life - as did her mother, "Victoria Mary Augusta Louise Olga Pauline Claudine Agnes" who was always privately called "May".

 

[sarahedwards2]

Wow, that's a lot of names, I always thought she was just Victoria Mary!

 

[Artemisia]

...The Princess Royal, Countess of Harewood was christened "Victoria Alexandra Alice Mary"...

Thanks for pointing that out, Laura!
I've completely forgotten May was christened Victoria Alexandra Alice Mary because she has never really been called anything but Mary.

 

[Zonk]

It's easy to forget that the Victoria and Albert's original plan was for all their female descendants to have Victoria somewhere in their name and Albert in the name for their male descendants. No matter what the parents thought! I believe Edward VII nipped that in the bud with either Louise or Maud but that was after he named his daughter Victoria and his son Albert Victor. Even George V is George Frederick Ernest Albert.

 

[Artemisia]

Edward VII didn't dare to oppose his formidable mother's wishes.
Both Maud and Louise had "Victoria" as one of their names: they were christened as Maud Charlotte Mary Victoria and Louise Victoria Alexandra Dagmar.

 

[vkrish]

There is a page in Yvonne's Royalty, about how Queen Victoria interfered in the naming of each and every one of her descendants, especially her insistence on having Albert/ Victoria as one of the names..But even the Prince and Princess of Wales took her for a ride in this matter..It is understandable that younger generations will not have the patience to heed to the aged granny obsessed with breeding, lineage and naming..

 

[Warren]

Queen Victoria was certainly "obsessed" with the names of her descendants (and physical appearances, especially of babies, but she was no different to her contemporaries on that score). However, the same can't be said for her attitude to "breeding" and lineage. She was much more relaxed about such matters than her Continental cousins who initially sniggered at Princess May of Teck for being a Serene Highness from a morganatic branch of the Württembergs. They were equally unimpressed by Princess Louise's marriage to John Campbell, Marquess of Lorne, Victoria's championing of the (morganatic) Battenbergs including Prince Alexander's aborted romance with her granddaughter Victoria of Prussia, and Princess Beatrice's marriage to Alexander's brother Prince Henry.

 

[vkrish]

Oh..all thats a lot of info for me..And I used the word 'obsessed' in a lighter vein..And I do think those were the only things she showed some real interest in during her post-Albert mourning perod..And of course that has made her 'grandmother of Europe'..And I hardly know about her contemporary European royals..

 

[Warren]

Queen Victoria had a multi-faceted personality and she cannot be pigeon-holed. The first decoration she awarded at the start of her reign was to the Jewish innkeeper of the seaside house where she had spent some holidays with her mother. That was a deliberate act. She became increasingly stubborn in rejecting advice to dispense with the Munshi because she objected to the racial and religious bigotry displayed by some courtiers (and members of her own family). She considered many of her German relations to be insufferable snobs in their attitudes to what was an "eligible" marriage. And so on.

In short, Queen Victoria cannot be portrayed in black and white.
.

 

[NGalitzine]

Queen Victoria had a multi-faceted personality and she cannot be pigeon-holed. The first decoration she awarded at the start of her reign was to the Jewish innkeeper of the seaside house where she had spent some holidays with her mother. That was a deliberate act. She became increasingly stubborn in rejecting advice to dispense with the Munshi because she objected to the racial and religious bigotry displayed by some courtiers (and members of her own family). She considered many of her German relations to be insufferable snobs in their attitudes to what was an "eligible" marriage. And so on.

In short, Queen Victoria cannot be portrayed in black and white.
.

Indeed, she did not take kindly to petty German princes telling the Doyenne of Sovereigns who was fit to marry into her family.

 

[Molly2101]

I like the fact that after Edward VII, many of the family chose to ignore Victoria's wish to have her name in her descendants (only Eugenie in the immediate line up have the name Victoria). It wasn't right of Victoria to ask that, nor was it right to say they had to have Albert in their name. I know it is only 1 name, and most of the Royals have 4 names, it was quite righteous of Victoria. It would appear that although she was a good Monarch, she was frightfully demanding of her family. Is is true that Alexandra lied to Victoria about when he babies were due, so Victoria was not there for any of the births, hence why her children were reportedly "premature"?

Regarding styles of members of the family, why was Angus Ogilvy a "Sir"? I understand he was the second son of an Earl, so he should have been The Hon. When he was made a "Sir"? Was it when he became a Knight Commander of the Royal Victorian Order or before?

 

[Meraude]

Regarding styles of members of the family, why was Angus Ogilvy a "Sir"? I understand he was the second son of an Earl, so he should have been The Hon. When he was made a "Sir"? Was it when he became a Knight Commander of the Royal Victorian Order or before?

He became Sir when he became a Knight Commander of the Royal Victorian Order: Angus Ogilvy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[AdmirerUS]

although she was a good Monarch, she was frightfully demanding of her family.

In my opinion, as her reign went on, Queen Victoria was quite self assured about what she could/should demand of anyone. To include the family names centuries into the future.

We simply cannot judge her by current standards, except to assuage our own values. Different times mean different values.

 

[Artemisia]

Foreign titles held by British subjects have no status in the UK and would require a royal licence to be officially recognized in the UK. No royal licence has been granted to a British subject to allow the use of a foreign title since 1932. Marina was a British subject.

Sorry to bring up this discussion again, but while writing a blog entry concerning the re-burial of Prince Paul and Princess Olga of Yugoslavia, I came across an interesting information which may have some relevance to Princess Marina's right or lack of thereof to be called "Princess" in Britain as well (not Princess of the United Kingdom but Princess of Greece and Denmark).

When Princess Olga, Marina's sister, married Prince Paul of Yugoslavia, her husband was a mere HH (His Highness), being a member of the cadet line of the Yugoslavian Royal Family. That changed with the new House Law of 1930, which made him a Royal Highness. Olga, however, bore the style of Royal Highness in her personal capacity and her official title was Her Royal Highness Princess Olga of Yugoslavia from the beginning.

To me, that shows that Princesses that marry foreign royals do not lose their birth styles and titles (unless they renounce them).

 

[Princess Robijn]

The difference is that Marina became an English subject. That included different rules then i.e. marrying into the Royal family of Yugoslavia and it has nothing to do with her sister keeping her HRH after marriage. However, foreign Princesses marrying into the British Royal family didn't loose their titles. It's a matter of styling.

 

[vkrish]

Regarding naming of Prince Charles and Princess Anne..

I want a full-fledged explanation regarding this..If its already discussed, please lemme know..

See I believe Charles should be referred generally, (not officially) as Prince Charles, The Prince of Wales, right? And similarly, his sister is Princess Anne, The Princess Royal..

But Wikipedia refers them as Charles,Prince of Wales and Anne, Princess Royal..
It seems to me they are like some courtesy titles (like Sarah,Duchess of York). Prince Charles was born Prince Charles, and will be the same for his entire life (till accession).The title Prince of Wales came in middle.Why should we omit 'Prince' in his original name? Similarly for Anne..
But then they dont follow the same for others..The same Wiki refers Andrew as Prince Andrew, Duke of York, and Edward as Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex etc..(very rightly). The only discrimination is for Charles and Anne..

After giving a good thought, I thought of a possible reason..
Apparently, some wise bird at Wiki thought they are saving a lot of time and space by avoiding to repeat the word "Prince" or "Princess' twice..
So Charles and Anne are 'stripped' of their birth titles..and philip, Edward, Andrew, are all retained, as they dont have Prince/Princess in their titles..

I do not find this correct in anyway..Thye should be Prince Charles, The Prince of Wales and Princess Anne, The Princess Royal..
What do you guys say..(Just google PC/PA.. and see)

But what I found puzzling is..even on TRF..threads are named.."Anne, princess Royal:Current events", "Anne, Princess Royal:Old photos" etc..It should be Princess Anne, The Princess Royal..Please put forward ur views..

PS: I am not bothering about official styling/protocol/court circulars and all..
Its as simple as this:
When you call Philip, Andrew, Edward as
Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh
Prince Andrew, Duke of York etc.
why dont you call Prince Charles, Prince of Wales..Its as simple as that..

 

[HRHHermione]

Wikipedia only does that to differentiate between the page for the current title holder and the page for the title itself. I don't think it's a big deal.

 

[vkrish]

It is a big deal for me..And why does it need to differentiate it that way?
There will be two different pages..
Prince of Wales
Prince Charles, Prince of Wales (Instead of the present Charles, PoW)

 

[Artemisia]

I want a full-fledged explanation regarding this..If its already discussed, please lemme know..

See I believe Charles should be referred generally, (not officially) as Prince Charles, The Prince of Wales, right? And similarly, his sister is Princess Anne, The Princess Royal..

But Wikipedia refers them as Charles,Prince of Wales and Anne, Princess Royal..

...

I cannot claim to be 100% certain on this issue, but it has always been my understanding that the difference of styling between Charles and Anne versus Andrew, Philip and other Princes is the following: both Prince Charles and Princess Anne have princely titles (The Prince of Wales and The Princess Royal respectively) that outrank their birth titles of Prince and Princess of the United Kingdom. As with all titles, the highest takes precedence, which is why they are known Charles, The Prince of Wales (or His Royal Highness The Prince of Wales) and Anne, The Princess Royal (or Her Royal Highness The Princess Royal).

Prince Philip, Prince Andrew, Prince William and others do not have Princely titles that outrank their birth (or, in case of Prince Philip, given) titles of Princes, which is why they are known under the more usual format of Prince + Name + Highest available title (e.g. Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh).

Hence, William is currently known as Prince William, Duke of Cambridge. However, if he is invested as The Prince of Wales during the reign of his father, he should come to be known as William, The Prince of Wales.

The same can be said of Felipe, Prince of Asturias (not Prince Felipe, Prince of Asturias). On the other hand, Prince Philippe of Belgium's highest title (the title of an Heir Apparent to the Belgian Throne) is that of a Duke (the Duke of Brabant), which is why his birth title of a Prince is still used, meaning he is styled and titled as Prince Philippe, Duke of Brabant.


I'm sure someone will correct me if my point of view is erroneous.

 

[vkrish]

Hmmm..well thought, Artemisia..Looking forward for more discussion on this, hopefully..

 

[AdmirerUS]

When in doubt, I trust the official website of the British Monarchy. Royal.gov.uk gives the following:

His Royal Highness Prince Charles Philip Arthur George, Prince of Wales, KG, KT, GCB, OM, AK, QSO, PC, ADC, Earl of Chester, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Baron of Renfrew, Lord of the Isles and Prince and Great Steward of Scotland.
​

and

(For the heading The Princess Royal) The Princess Royal, ...was baptised Anne Elizabeth Alice Louise at Buckingham Palace on 21 October 1950.

She received the title Princess Royal from The Queen in June 1987; she was previously known as Princess Anne. Her Royal Highness is the seventh holder of the title.

​

and

(for the heading Duke of York) His Royal Highness The Prince Andrew was created Duke of York, Earl of Inverness and Baron Killyleagh on the occasion of his marriage to Miss Sarah Ferguson on 23 July 1986.
​

and

(for the heading the Earl of Wessex) Born in 1964, Prince Edward was created The Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn on his marriage in 1999.


​

It is correct to refer to them as Prince Charles, The Princess Royal, The Duke of York and the Earl of Wessex.


We tend to refer to them as Princes Andrew and Edward and Princess Anne because we knew them that way for years until they were CREATED their current titles. It's habit, IMHO.

​

 

[vkrish]

The first point of your refence clearly states that he should be known as
Prince Charles, Prince of Wales..and not Charles,Prince of Wales
Then it will be similar for Anne also.Princess Anne, Princess Royal..not Anne, Princess Royal..

 

[Artemisia]

The first point of your refence clearly states that he should be known as
Prince Charles, Prince of Wales..and not Charles,Prince of Wales
Then it will be similar for Anne also.Princess Anne, Princess Royal..not Anne, Princess Royal..

Not necessarily.
The first point in AdmirerUS's post merely names all of Prince Charles' titles and styles. His birth title of the Prince of the United Kingdom is still his, of course: it's just outranked by a higher-ranking The Prince of Wales. Same for Princess Anne.

 

[vkrish]

Then it would have been

His Royal Highness Charles Prince of Wales....etc..etc..etc.. instead of
His Royal Highness Prince Charles Prince of Wales..etc..etc.. as it is in official site
So he should always be Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, with both titles..I guess I m getting obsessed with this..

 

[Artemisia]

Then it would have been

His Royal Highness Charles Prince of Wales....etc..etc..etc.. instead of
His Royal Highness Prince Charles Prince of Wales..etc..etc.. as it is in official site
So he should always be Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, with both titles..I guess I m getting obsessed with this..

It's "Prince Charles, Prince of Wales" because his birth title of the Prince of the United Kingdom hasn't gone anywhere. When all his styles and titles are mentioned, it makes sense "Prince Charles" is among them as well. However, when only the highest available title is mentioned, than Charles, Prince of Wales is the more accurate one. Although it's all relative: personally, I'll always call him Prince Charles or Prince Charles, Prince of Wales simply because anything else sounds quite unusual to me.

I had previously mentioned the example of Prince Felipe (or, more accurately, Felipe, Prince of Asturias). When his full titles and styles are listed, he goes as His Royal Highness the Most Serene Infante Don Felipe Juan Pablo Alfonso de Todos los Santos de Borbón y Grecia, Prince of Asturias, Prince of Girona, Prince of Viana, Duke of Montblanc, Count of Cervera and Lord of Balaguer. However, when only the highest (most important) one is listed, then it's Felipe, Prince of Asturias. Substitute "Don" for a "Prince" and you'll get the same picture as with Prince Charles.


This is an interesting question for those who are interested in titles and styling, and I'm sure you'll heard many other opinions on this issue; this is just mine.

 

[AdmirerUS]

Sorry - I ommitted - in front of the paragraph with all of Charles styles/titles, the heading for the page at royal.gov is PRINCE OF WALES. That is also the title of his own official web page; he is most correctly first Prince of Wales. I just knew if I took a stab at this instead of leaving it to the pros (Artemisia, Iluvbertie et al) that I would confuse the issue. Sorry.

 

[branchg]

The easiest way to look at it is what titles and styles are various members of the royal family entitled to, whether by birth, succession or grant.

For example, Charles is "HRH The Prince Charles" as a son of The Sovereign. In addition, as the eldest son and heir, he is automatically "The Duke of Cornwall" in England and "The Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Baron of Renfrew, etc." in Scotland. As the heir to the throne, in 1958, he was created "Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester" in Wales by The Queen.

So, they don't lose any titles or styles, but they are generally styled by their highest peerage title, albeit with royal rank as HRH ("HRH The Prince of Wales").

 

[NGalitzine]

Sorry to bring up this discussion again, but while writing a blog entry concerning the re-burial of Prince Paul and Princess Olga of Yugoslavia, I came across an interesting information which may have some relevance to Princess Marina's right or lack of thereof to be called "Princess" in Britain as well (not Princess of the United Kingdom but Princess of Greece and Denmark).

When Princess Olga, Marina's sister, married Prince Paul of Yugoslavia, her husband was a mere HH (His Highness), being a member of the cadet line of the Yugoslavian Royal Family. That changed with the new House Law of 1930, which made him a Royal Highness. Olga, however, bore the style of Royal Highness in her personal capacity and her official title was Her Royal Highness Princess Olga of Yugoslavia from the beginning.

To me, that shows that Princesses that marry foreign royals do not lose their birth styles and titles (unless they renounce them).

Its not that she lost the title Princess of Greece and Denmark or ceased to be a Greek HRH, it is just that in Britain in order for a British subject to officialy use and be known by your foreign title you need a Royal Licence and they have not been granted since 1932 ( and licences granted before 1932 were to expire with the death of the then current holder of the title). So Marina when she married, in the UK at least, became HRH The Duchess of Kent. When her son married and she wished to be differentiated from her new daughter in law the Queen gave permission for her to be known as HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent and a few years later gave the same permission for the same reason to Alice Gloucester to be known as HRH Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester. Neither lady was created a UK princess in their own right, it was a courtesy of the Queen but also not an official recognition of a Greek title either. If she had been officially recognizing Marina's Greek title she would have been known in the UK as HRH Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark, Duchess of Kent and Alice may well have been simlpy HRH The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester.

 

[Stefan]

I had previously mentioned the example of Prince Felipe (or, more accurately, Felipe, Prince of Asturias). When his full titles and styles are listed, he goes as His Royal Highness the Most Serene Infante Don Felipe Juan Pablo Alfonso de Todos los Santos de Borbón y Grecia, Prince of Asturias, Prince of Girona, Prince of Viana, Duke of Montblanc, Count of Cervera and Lord of Balaguer. However, when only the highest (most important) one is listed, then it's Felipe, Prince of Asturias. Substitute "Don" for a "Prince" and you'll get the same picture as with Prince Charles.

Actuall Felipe ceased to be an Infante when he was created Prince of Asturias.