Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[NGalitzine]

When civil partnerships were introduced in the Uk it was said that the civil partner would not share in the other partners title. Rather like Sir Elton John and his civil partner Mr David Furnish.

 

[branchg]

When civil partnerships were introduced in the Uk it was said that the civil partner would not share in the other partners title. Rather like Sir Elton John and his civil partner Mr David Furnish.

Yes, but of course, that doesn't mean The Sovereign cannot grant a royal partner their own title as a lifetime peerage.

 

[Jacknch]

When pondering PrincePatrick's question I was just thinking of the Mark Phillips/Tim Lawrence situations regarding titles and then saw Windsorgirls post! I agree that if someone entered into a civil partnership with a royal, they would retain their own title (i.e. Mr etc). But I do agree with Branchg that the Sovereign could issue a title.
I'm not sure about adopted or surrogate children and what if any their position would be.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Adopted children can't inherit titles or associated property but they can't inherit non-associated property e.g. an adopted child of William couldn't become King or inherit Windsor Castle but William could leave personal property to such a child such as Sandringham or Balmoral (yes we know that they have belonged to the monarchs now for over a century but they are private property - George VI had to buy them from Edward VIII after the abdication).

Surrogates would only be acceptable if the child was the biological child of both the parents which isn't possible with two parents of the same gender so again no inheritance rights regarding titles or associated property.

Of course laws can change but regarding titles and inheritance associated with that the biological parentage is important. Harry could do what many other gay men in the royal family have done over the centuries - marry, have the children, and then move onto the male lover (even divorce the wife and have the civil partnership with his lover).

 

[HM Queen Catherine]

My opinion is that if Harry or one of William's sons were gay and entered into a same-sex civil partnership (being in direct succession to the throne), that this partner may very likely be granted a life peerage.. or at least a peerage may be offered to Mr. X, whether he chooses to accept it or not.

If Harry or William's son were HRH The Duke of Clarence, then certainly I could see the partner being Lord X. I could also see a future gay king and his partner being HM The King and HRH The Prince Consort.. or HRH The Princess Royal and Lady X.. this is the 21st century after all, so why not? I've no objection at all to such titles being given to the life partner of a gay royal.. as long as the royal in question were in direct line to the throne and/or becomes sovereign.

In the case of a child being born of a surrogate mother, I think the laws could be changed to allow inheritance when the titleholder is the biological father.. and indeed, I think that is preferable to forcing a heterosexual marriage on a gay man simply for the purpose of procreation or extending the title for another generation. To me that seems rather cruel to both parties of such a "marriage".

Besides, the maternal bloodline is usually not the important one when it comes to the inheritance of a title, but who the father is.. of course, the laws would have to somehow get around the illegitimacy of the surrogate child..

 

[James VI]

Gay Marriage

This is a very interesting topic and has raised some very good points for discussion. I`m quite sure the issue of gay marriage has been discussed at the Palace, the Queen`s advisors are not quite the dinosaurs that popular media would have us believe. Personally, i would go along with the idea of the spouse of the Royal in question having no title, simply because this is the precedent already established by those members of the peerage and Knightage, who are gay, and whose partners/spouses do not share their titles. However, as has already been said, this would not be a perfect solution. If gay marriage is to be regarded as equal to heterosexual marriage, then a Royal prince who married a man may indeed want his husband to share his title, in the same way as his heterosexual brother would share his, on marrying a woman. It is an unknown....

 

[Grandduchess24]

Do royals titled TRH get more royal duties/ are more important than royals titled HH of TSH?

 

[NGalitzine]

Do royals titled TRH get more royal duties/ are more important than royals titled HH of TSH?

In the UK we only have the style HRH. No member of the BRF is styled HH or HSH anymore.
Of Europes current reigning royal families I believe the style of HH only exists in Denmark for junior members of the royal family and in the Netherlands for the sons of Princess Margriet who have the non-hereditary titles of Prince of Orange-Nassau. It may also be used in Norway but I am not sure of the applications there. The style of HSH is used for the reigning princely families of Liechtenstein and Monaco.
As a general rule I would say that the closer you are to the throne the more engagements you undertake.

 

[PrincePatrick]

Forgot to post my thanks for all the responses to the Gay Royal Marriage question! Fascinating positions, and I really appreciate the insight!

 

[Marc23]

It may also be used in Norway but I am not sure of the applications there.

Princesses Astrid,Ragnhild and Martha Louise of Norway are HH after their marriage!

 

[NGalitzine]

Princesses Astrid,Ragnhild and Martha Louise of Norway are HH after their marriage!

Yes, but I am not sure if that is only when abroad or if they are styled that way domestically. Does Prince Sverre have any style at all, he is not an HRH.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Yes, but I am not sure if that is only when abroad or if they are styled that way domestically. Does Prince Sverre have any style at all, he is not an HRH.

As per the Norwegian Royal Family site Princesses Märtha Louise,Ragnhild and Astrid all have the style 'Her Highness'.


kongehuset.no - Her Highness Princess Ragnhild

kongehuset.no - Her Highness Princess Ragnhild

kongehuset.no - Her Highness Princess Astrid

Prince Sverre is also styled as 'His Highness Prince Sverre Magnus'

kongehuset.no - His Highness Prince Sverre Magnus

 

[NGalitzine]

Thanks, although I notice when you switch to the Norwegian versions these styles are not applied. Astrid is shown as Princess Astrid, Frau Ferner and Sverre is simple Prince Sverre with no style applied. His parents and elder sister are styled HRH though. That is why I questioned if the styles are applied domestically or not.
Guess this is off topic for a British board and the Norwegians would know better. I have posted the question on the Norwegian thread.

 

[yvr girl]

I believe the HH title does only apply abroad.

 

[Iluvbertie]

The 1917 LPs which limited the HRH in Britain also abolished the HH and HSH titles in Britain. So in Britain you are either HRH or nothing along those lines. Obviously there are other titles such as Dukes, Earls etc that can be held but not HH or HSH.

 

[ironical]

I have a few stupid questions for you, I'm very sorry
After marriage Prince Philip renounced his Greek and Danish royal titles and accepted the title of Duke of Edinburgh, right? Why? I always thought that the title HRH Prince is "higher" than HRH Duke.
Why is Prince Philip not the King? His wife is the Queen and he is the Price by birth. What's the problem?
Thank you

 

[Osipi]

Philip renounced his title of Prince of Greece and Denmark and became a British citizen prior to his marriage to the then Princess Elizabeth.
Upon his marriage he was created HRH The Duke of Edinburgh. Philip did not hold the title of a prince of the UK until years later when his wife the Queen bestowed the title on him in 1957. Also, just prior to his marriage he converted from the Greek orthodox church to the Church of England and it was at this time he adopted the surname of Mountbatten.

Philip married into the British line of succession and when Elizabeth became Queen in 1952, it was another 5 years before he was given the title of a Prince of the UK. As Elizabeth is the Queen Regnant, he cannot be King as that title would outrank the Queen.

His former titles prior to marriage have no standing in the UK.

 

[ironical]

As Elizabeth is the Queen Regnant, he cannot be King as that title would outrank the Queen.

Thank you so much!
What does it mean? The King title is "stronger" than the Queen title?

 

[Osipi]

Thank you so much!
What does it mean? The King title is "stronger" than the Queen title?

I suppose just like in a deck of cards and in most games, a king beats a queen. In the UK when there is a King, there is a Queen Consort such as HMs parents were. As Elizabeth is the reigning Queen such as Elizabeth I and Victoria were, she is called the Queen Regnant. That is why sometimes you will see her signature on something as Elizabeth R or Elizabeth II R.

Queen Victoria's husband Albert was known as the Prince Consort and he was a Prince of Saxe-Colburg Gotha. During this era, however, I believe that the UK recognized foreign titles. I'm sure some of our more knowledgeable members here will correct me if I'm wrong. Philip, however, is not a Prince Consort but a Prince of the UK in his own right by the grace and favor of the Queen.

One more thing. There is no such beast as a stupid question. I've learned by leaps and bounds here by asking questions and having others correct me where I am wrong. Welcome to TRF!

 

[ironical]

Thank you so much for "cards" example
I only know that Denmark recognizes the Greek titles and I'm not sure about GB.
Would you please explain how related to each other Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, and Queen Sophia of Spain?

 

[Osipi]

I have absolutely no clue how they are related but perhaps you can find the information in the Royal Genealogy threads. Royal Genealogy - The Royal Forums

Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip though are distant cousins (3rd) I believe as they both have Queen Victoria as their great-great grandmother.

 

[Iluvbertie]

First off - the Greek-Danish thing.

In 1864 the younger son of the King of Denmark, who was 2nd in line to the Danish throne at the time, was chosen by the Greek people and the major powers as the new King of Greece. He did retain his Danish titles so all his children were Princes/Princesses of both Greece and Denmark including the only son of his fourth son - Philip. So Philip is a grandson of George I of the Hellenes whose father was King of Denmark and whose sisters, in time became the Empress of Russian and the Queen of Great Britain.

Sofia is the daughter of Philip's first cousin - Paul. Depending on how you calculate cousins they are either first cousins once removed or second cousins.

When Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark married HRH The Duke of Kent she was often referred to as Princess Marina but officially she was recognised as HRH The Duchess of Kent in Britain although outside Britain she was often given the official titles she held from birth.

Philip didn't actually have to renounce his titles but to take out British citizenship he did do so but... a later court decision revealed that he had in fact been born a British citizen and didn't have to go through all that paperwork. He was created Duke of Edinburgh to give him a peerage in 1947.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I have absolutely no clue how they are related but perhaps you can find the information in the Royal Genealogy threads. Royal Genealogy - The Royal Forums

Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip though are distant cousins (3rd) I believe as they both have Queen Victoria as their great-great grandmother.

They also have Christian IX of Denmark as a common ancestor.

Christian - Alexandra - George V - George VI - Elizabeth.

Christian - William (George I of the Hellenes) - Andrew - Philip

 

[ironical]

Thank you so much!
Would you please explain me how it possible, if Prince Philip as a baby moved to the UK with parents?
Does it mean that The Queen Sofia is Philip's distant niece, right?

 

[Iluvbertie]

Philip's father was accused of treason by the government and was facing a death sentence so the British navy was sent in to get out both Andrew and the rest of the family. George V had already lost one first cousin and family to revolutionaries (Nicholas, Alexandra and the Russian children) and wasn't about to lose another first cousin (Andrew) and his wife and children.

Philip therefore left Greece aged 1 and moved actually to France after a short visit to his grandmother in England. His grandmother, Victoria was the First Marchioness of Milford Haven and lived in Kensington Palace. Due to money problems Philip and his family moved to Paris where one of his father's brothers was able to help the family out.

Later on Philip was sent to school in England for most of his schooling - he spent about two terms at school in Germany after all four of his sisters married German princes but he laughed at the Nazis too much it was felt safer to send him to Gordonstoun, which was just being established.


Queen Sofia is his second cousin. Her father is his first cousin.

 

[Osipi]

Ahhhh... there is our esteemed resident history teacher Iluvbertie!!

Never ever annoying with questions but I know our mods here like to keep the threads on track

 

[ironical]

Yeah, I would like to attend Iluvbertie's lectures, it's unbelievable, but I have no more questions!
Thank you Osipi for patience

 

[Artemisia]

Queen Victoria's husband Albert was known as the Prince Consort and he was a Prince of Saxe-Colburg Gotha. During this era, however, I believe that the UK recognized foreign titles. I'm sure some of our more knowledgeable members here will correct me if I'm wrong. Philip, however, is not a Prince Consort but a Prince of the UK in his own right by the grace and favor of the Queen.

You are absolutely correct. The Prince Consort (with capital letters) is a title that does not automatically belong to the consort of the queen regnant. So far, there has only been one Prince Consort in British history - Prince Albert The Prince Consort.
Prince Philip is, however, prince consort as husband of the Queen Regnant; he just isn't The Prince Consort. And yes, he is Prince of the United Kingdom and the Duke of Edinburgh in his own right, independent of his wife's titles and styles. He was

 

[Tiberivs]

Thank you so much!
What does it mean? The King title is "stronger" than the Queen title?

I don't think a king is "stronger" than a queen regnant, it's just that despite the fact that women were never forbidden from ascending the throne of England, the hierarchical system of the monarchy never thought of such a scenario and so there is no define rank to a male consort. Even in our day Prince Philip commented that "Constitutionally I don't exist".

When Mary I married Philip II of Spain the English Parliament made Philip a co-king together with his wife, it was a jure uxoris title, meaning he wasn't just a consort but a real king with all the political power of that position, however he was such only due to his marriage and when his wife died he stopped being a king.

Elizabeth I never married but its likely that if she had a similar arrangement would be made for her husband (and not wanting to share the power was probably one of the reasons for her not to marry).

After the glorious revolution and the depositing of James II the English and Scottish parliaments offer the crowns to Mary II and William III as join sovereigns despite Mary having the superior heredity claim, unlike Philip William III was king in his own right and stay as such after his wife death. Obviously their ascending to the throne wasn't under normal circumstances and the parliaments only offer the crown to William because he refused to rule through his wife.

Queen Anne was the first female monarch whose husband was her subject, Prince George was prince of Denmark and Norway and was made Duke of Cumberland by William III.

Strangely Albert didn't have any British title for the first 17 years of his marriage to Victoria, he was prince of the tiny German state Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and Duke of Saxony, only in 1957 Victoria created him a prince of the UK with the title Prince-Consort which was especially created for him.

 

[Artemisia]

I don't think a king is "stronger" than a queen regnant...

Brilliant post, just one addition: Lady Jane Grey's husband was her subject as well. I know Jane Grey is usually omitted from the list of English and British Monarchs; nevertheless, for the duration of those 13 days when Jane was Queen Regnant of England she flatly refused to grant her husband the title of the King, despite all his efforts.
Empress Matilda's second husband, Geoffrey V, Count of Anjou, was also her subject and there was never any question of elevating him to the rank of King. Of course, like Lady Jane Grey, Matilda was never crowned and is usually not included in the list of proper monarchs.