Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[PrincessKaimi]

Myself, I doubt that William in any way tried to press his grandmother to make Kate a princess in her own right. It just doesn't seem to be in keeping with the way the young couple operates, and William seems to know he's already privileged, seems grateful for the degree of status he already has, has no desire to create a more lordly presence or more power for himself and Kate. I'm a huge fan of how he conducts himself in public, and I do believe that he respects his grandmother in the most affectionate way.

Begging for a huge change in tradition that only benefits oneself (and doesn't even make sense, since Kate has no experience being a princess) does not seem like William's style.

 

[DukeOfAster]

I think this is a very interesting thing to read on. I have always held a interest on how such things work. I understand that the last time a person who married a monarch was elevated to the rank of a prince of the united kingdom was Prince Phillip. Before his elevation he was Phillip, Duke of Edinburgh and I Believe 5 years into her reign Elizabeth made her spouse a Prince in his own right. I have a feeling Charles will do the same for Camilla and William will do it for Catherine. It seems fitting that the Monarch would do that for a spouse not a in law. I would say the Cornwall title will over ride the other titles just like Wales will one day. In the end will be when we see the official title he was given come back. I say Catherine will be Her Majesty, Queen Catherine, the Duchess of Cambridge as Williams widow one day. Maybe a second child will be given the title of Cambridge. Camillia will be a princess consort according to her wishes and not Queen so who knows what she would be called upon Charles death because the Cornwall is not his it is the stepping stone and the money maker for a prince of Wales.

 

[DukeOfAster]

Now penning my last comment made me want to post the question I asked before. Let's say Charles makes Camilla a Princess of the UK and during his reign and she is Princess Camillia, The Princess Consort during this time. Since Charledhas not been given a title like William has in his own right what will Camillia be know as if Charles passes before she does. The basic could be Princess Camellia, Princess of the United Kingdom. Any suggestions.

 

[Iluvbertie]

When William becomes King he will cease to be Duke of Cambridge so unless Kate is divorced she will also cease to be Duchess of Cambridge at the same time. The Queen Mother and Queen Mary both ceased to be Duchesses when they became Queen Consorts as their husband's title had merged with the Crown.

 

[DukeOfAster]

Did not think about that. Please read the question about Camillia and her title if she out lives a King Charles.

Was Queen Mary just Queen Mary so I guess Camilla could just be Princess Camillia.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Queen Mary became Queen Mary the day her husband became King and she remained Queen Mary until the day she died. That is also what happened with Queen Alexandra. But the Queen Mum was slightly different as it was felt that it would be too confusing to have two Queen Elizabeth's so she tookt the more formal title of The Queen Mother (although the two previously mentioned Queen's were also entitled to use that title but didn't do so on a daily basis).

Camilla - who knows. As Britain doesn't recognise morganatic marriage she will become Queen Consort when Charles ascends the throne - unless legislation is passed to strip her of the title and thus change a millienia old tradition that a wife takes the title and rank of her husband in Britain. Charles would then have to issue LPs to create her Princess Consort. Using the title Duchess of Cornwall is different as Charles is The Duke of Cornwall - and has been for nearly 60 years but he will cease to hold that title the moment he ascends the throne so Camilla will also cease to have the femine version of those titles. She will instantly become Queen Camilla and then they will have to backtrack.

 

[DukeOfAster]

If I am not mistaken like it is her choice to be a duchess I am sure she has asked to be a princess consort not a Queen.

 

[NGalitzine]

Well, given recent comments by the Prince Of Wales and by Camilla herself, I guess we will just have to wait and see. Personally I think she should use her rightful title when the time comes and be HM Queen Camilla.

 

[Lumutqueen]

If I am not mistaken like it is her choice to be a duchess I am sure she has asked to be a princess consort not a Queen.

It was Charles who 'blurted' out the whole Princess Consort arrangement, and the press has brought to like recently that it isn't the 'now' case for Camilla to be just The Princess Consort, she will be Queen. She is the wife of the future King therefore she is the future Queen.

If Camilla outlives Charles, her title may depend entirely upon Prince William when he ascends the throne.

 

[Kataryn]

If Camilla outlives Charles, her title may depend entirely upon Prince William when he ascends the throne.

I doubt that very much. William will go with tradition because he surely will not wish to introduce the past in his future reign - which he would do if he treated Camilla in any negative way. His mother is gone and Camilla has been a very good wife to his father. Plus William himself knows firsthand what love is all about - he loves and is loved in return, he supports and is supported in return - he knows what makes a good and makes a bad marriage and thus he should be able to understand his father better than most people.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Well actually, it is his decision to go with tradition. He is the King, we don't know what will happen between now and the day in question, so William may outcast Camilla, he may name her The Dowager Queen - he can do what he like as Fount of Honour.
But it's up to him what Camilla's title is, as she isn't The Queen Mother, she will no longer be The Duchess of Cornwall or Princess of Wales. So William will have to deal with the title situation should this arise, whether he choose to follow tradition (which is what by the way?) or give Camilla a title of her own.

 

[Zonk]

If Camilla outlives Charles before he becomes King, I would imagine that she would become The Dowager Duchess of Cornwall (Princess of Wales) or Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall. I can't imagine anyone using the titled Dowager when talking to her. What are current non royal duchesses called when their husbands die, and their is a new Duke and/or Duchess. It should be the same.

If Camilla outlives Charles when he becomes King, she will be whatever title she takes when she was his Wife (Princess Consort or Queen Camilla).

I can't imagine William changing anything in that respect.

 

[Susanna Wynne]

A previous post states that Catherine is in reality a Princess of the United Kingdom by right of marriage to Prince William. I may be wrong, but I think William is a Prince "of Wales" i.e., Prince William of Wales, rather than a prince of the United Kingdom, so Catherine, if she is legally a princess by marriage, would also be "of Wales?" It is my understanding that when Charles becomes king, his sons will become, technically, princes of the United Kingdom, and William will also become Prince of Wales and Catherine will become Princess of Wales, but not "Princess Catherine." The Princess Royal is a princess of the United Kingdom, as was Princess Margaret, by the fact that she was daughter of the King. Will someone please let me know if this is incorrect?

 

[Lumutqueen]

I'm not sure at this so i'm going to give it a go, Catherine is known as officially Her Royal Highness Princess William Arthur Philip Louis, Duchess of Cambridge, Countess of Strathearn, Baroness Carrickfergus.
They are Princes of the entire UK, but due to their fathers title their 'surname' in effect is Wales. Just like with the York girls, but their not confined to being just Princess' of York. If William hadn't have been given a dukedom, Catherine would have been Princess William of Wales simply known as Catherine. But seeing as they have, Cambridge has become their 'surname'. If you get me?

Margaret and Anne were Princess' in their own right as they are/were daughters of the sovereigns.

 

[Iluvbertie]

William ceased to be 'of Wales' when he became Duke of Cambridge. The 'of Wales' designation was to indicate which peer is his father but now he is a peer in his own right so the 'of Wales' with regard to William has now ended.

If Camilla outlives Charles she will remain with the feminine form of of whatever title Charles was having at the time. As she wouldn't be holding it in her own right but only through marriage she would, like any other wife, continue to do so.

If William decided to say that she couldn't do so it would be showing him in a very poor light - as a vindictive, nasty piece of work. Whether he is that way we don't know but so far we haven't had any reports to suggest that he has that sort of streak in him - but he might.

 

[DukeOfAster]

I doubt that William will be mean like that at all. I think they all get along well and I think Diana would have wanted it that way. I also would like to thank you all in understanding this issue. I guess we will truly know what will happen when it does.

 

[Baroness of Books]

I'd like to think William has too much integrity of character to deny his stepmother the respect due her as his father's wife, no matter what may transpire. There are so many variables to a hypothetical situation that the only thing we can trust will happen is that William would make the right decision if and when any such issue should arise.

 

[DukeOfAster]

Do you all see that during a Charles reign that his stepchildren will get titles of there on. I see that if their mom is the wife of a king her children should have a title of their own.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Do you all see that during a Charles reign that his stepchildren will get titles of there on. I see that if their mom is the wife of a king her children should have a title of their own.

This goes with the house thing, as Tom and Laura are not royalty, married to royalty or related in any blood way to royalty they do not deserve nor need titles when their mother becomes Queen. They are Camilla and Andrew's children, not Charles and Camilla's.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Do you all see that during a Charles reign that his stepchildren will get titles of there on. I see that if their mom is the wife of a king her children should have a title of their own.

I don't think that will happen at all. They will be the King's stepchildren and then the next King after that's step-siblings but that is no reason for them to get titles.

 

[branchg]

Let's say Charles makes Camilla a Princess of the UK and during his reign and she is Princess Camillia, The Princess Consort during this time. Since Charledhas not been given a title like William has in his own right what will Camillia be know as if Charles passes before she does. The basic could be Princess Camellia, Princess of the United Kingdom. Any suggestions.

Camilla cannot be created a Princess of the UK once Charles is King because in law and by succession of title, she would be "HM The Queen" automatically as the wife of The Sovereign. She can only hold whatever title her husband has as she has no titles in her own right.

If Parliament agrees to pass legislation stating Camilla will not be Queen Consort (with the Crown Commonwealth also granting their consent), Charles can then issue Letters Patent creating Camilla a Princess in her own right. At that point, she has her own title and rank for her lifetime.

It's very unlikely, however, this will actually happen. I fully expect Camilla will become Queen when the time comes.

 

[DukeOfAster]

Thanks for that it makes since. Just curious will with the change that allows a women to be queen if she has a husband will he be her King like a wife would be his queen.

 

[branchg]

This goes with the house thing, as Tom and Laura are not royalty, married to royalty or related in any blood way to royalty they do not deserve nor need titles when their mother becomes Queen. They are Camilla and Andrew's children, not Charles and Camilla's.

Agreed. If Tom and Laura were young kids being raised in the King's household with his other blood children, I can see it being a possibility once they came of age.

They are adults with their own independent lives and no desire to become a member of the royal family. Nor is there a reason for them to be considered as such, other than informally.

 

[branchg]

Thanks for that it makes since. Just curious will with the change that allows a women to be queen if she has a husband will he be her King like a wife would be his queen.

No, because technically, the title of King outranks the title of Queen. So, Prince Albert and Prince Philip, being consorts of reigning Queens, were limited to being Princes of the UK and/or Dukes of the Realm.

 

[Baroness of Books]

To be entitled king one must inherit the title in his own right, not as spouse of a reigning queen. As Branchg states, a king outranks a queen, unless she is a queen regnant who rules in her own right. Otherwise she will be a queen consort, the spouse of a king. However, when Philip of Spain married Mary Tudor, he did become king of England only to have the title during her lifetime. But as we've seen in later times, Prince Albert was the Prince Consort to Queen Victoria and Prince Philip has remained in his title, as well as Duke of Edinburgh, to Queen Elizabeth.

 

[DukeOfAster]

But with the new laws that allow the Monarch to be the first born will that not change that.So if that is a woman will she not out rank the men so then the King title out ranking the Queen will be gone to correct.

 

[Baroness of Books]

I don't see how anything would change with the new laws, other than if a female is first born she'll be queen. There can't be a king if a woman has inherited the throne, and therefore her spouse will be a prince, duke or whatever title he already has or is bestowed by the queen.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Thanks for that it makes since. Just curious will with the change that allows a women to be queen if she has a husband will he be her King like a wife would be his queen.

A woman can already be Queen. The only change is to allow first born child, regardless of gender, to ascend the throne.

As we have had a number of Queens' Regnant with consorts who weren't Kings there is no reason to assume that a future Queen Regnant would be any different.

 

[Hendrik-Jan77]

I have a question about the future titles of the children of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge.
When the Duke and Duchess will become Prince and Princess of Wales one day, will their childrens' titles also change?
For example:
The couple will have 3 daughters:

H.R.H. Princess Victoria of Cambridge
H.R.H. Princess Alexandra of Cambridge
H.R.H. Princess Caroline of Cambridge

When their parents will become Prince and Princess of Wales, will they then become:

H.R.H. Princess Victoria of Wales
H.R.H. Princess Alexandra of Wales
H.R.H. Princess Caroline of Wales

Or will they keep their Cambridge titles?
Maybe someone asked this question before in this thread. If so, I do apologize.

 

[NGalitzine]

If they follow the 1917 Letters Patent, while QE2 is on the throne the eldest son would be HRH Prince X of Cambridge. Other children would be Lord Y Mountbatten Windsor or Lady Z Mountbatten Windsor. When Charles comes to the throne they would be HRH Prince Y or Princess Z of Cornwall and Cambridge and then probably HRH Prince Y or Princess Z of Wales at a later date.
William automatically becomes Duke of Cornwall the moment his father succeeds to the throne but would need to be created Prince of Wales by his father.