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  #1961  
Old 03-20-2013, 04:08 PM
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The Princess married to The Prince of Wales won't have a name, just like nowadays.
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  #1962  
Old 03-20-2013, 04:14 PM
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Thats what I suggested in one of the previous post, Lumutqueen..
They can make an exception for the wife of heir, to be known as Princess (1st name). Afterall they are bringing on this big 'revolution', this one change will do no bad..
All I want is The Princess of Wales should be only limited to the heiress of the throne..
Or there is another possibility..IF she is some Duchess X before her husband becomes PoW, she can continue with the same title.
The it will be Prince of Wales and Duchess of X..
Princess of Wales and Duke of X..
Perfect gender equality..
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  #1963  
Old 03-20-2013, 04:23 PM
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I see a problem here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
The DoC has to fulfil two criteria:

1. he has to be the heir apparent.
2. he has to be the eldest living son of the monarch.
The eldest living son of the monarch was/is the heir apparent. Always.
So, does the duchy law have the first criteria? Or, is this only have in mind?
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  #1964  
Old 03-20-2013, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vkrish View Post
Thats what I suggested in one of the previous post, Lumutqueen..
They can make an exception for the wife of heir, to be known as Princess (1st name). Afterall they are bringing on this big 'revolution', this one change will do no bad..
All I want is The Princess of Wales should be only limited to the heiress of the throne..
Or there is another possibility..IF she is some Duchess X before her husband becomes PoW, she can continue with the same title.
The it will be Prince of Wales and Duchess of X..
Princess of Wales and Duke of X..
Perfect gender equality..
There is NO big revolution. there is a half thought out, uneducated try led by someone who is in such a hurry he hasn't worked out the detail. it is going to be a mess. As for the impact on the 15 realms, I don't think the DPM has given it a thought. It's embarrassing.
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  #1965  
Old 03-20-2013, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vkrish View Post
All I want is The Princess of Wales should be only limited to the heiress of the throne..
The wife of The Prince of Wales is going to be known as The Princess of Wales. It's the law of the media, or more than likely Princess (insert name).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spheno View Post
I see a problem here:

The eldest living son of the monarch was/is the heir apparent. Always.
So, does the duchy law have the first criteria? Or, is this only have in mind?

I'm not sure what you mean, to be The Duke of Cornwall you have to be the eldest son of the monarch and heir apparent at the same time. If you miss out one criteria we have no Duke. For instance if Charles dies, William will not be Duke of Cornwall despite being the heir, he is not the eldest son of the reigning Monarch.
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  #1966  
Old 03-20-2013, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spheno View Post
I see a problem here: The eldest living son of the monarch was/is the heir apparent. Always. So, does the duchy law have the first criteria? Or, is this only have in mind?
The heir apparent is not always the eldest living son of the monarch. Sometimes it is the eldest living daughter (Queen Elizabeth was never the Duke or Duchess of Cornwall) and sometimes it is the eldest living son (or daughter, although that's yet to happen) of the monarch's deceased eldest living son (George III was never the Duke of Cornwall either).

If they change the rules regarding the succession to the throne then we may see a case where the heir apparent is the eldest child of the monarch, who is not given the Duchy of Cornwall because of her gender, at which point the rules regarding the title of the Duchy of Cornwall will need to be changed.
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  #1967  
Old 03-20-2013, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post

According to the Bill itself the only laws with provisions that will be altered are these;

Act of Settlement: in regards to Roman Catholicism.

Royal Marriages Act 1772: would be repealed entirely so that the six closest members in the line of succesion would be required to ask for marital permission. Marriages legally void under the Royal Marriages Act 1772 would be treated as never having been void, if certain conditions are met.

Provisions in Acts of Union 1707, Acts of Union 1800, several clauses in the Bill of Rights 1689 the Act of Settlement 1701 regarding Catholics will be altered.

Treason Act 1351 and Regency Act 1937 would be altered.

I have read no plans to alter the Duchy of Cornwall, in a way this title could remain for the eldest son. The Duchy of Cornwall title is automatic unlike the POW so it may be trickier to alter.

The dukedom of Cornwall can only be held by the oldest living son of the monarch who is also heir apparent. In the event of a Duke of Cornwall's death, the title merges in the Crown even if he left surviving descendants. The monarch's grandson, even if he is the heir apparent, does not succeed to the dukedom. Similarly, no female may ever be Duke of Cornwall, even if she is heiress presumptive or heiress apparent to the throne.
The law will be changed to allow the heir to have that title even if the heir is a lady. I can quote laws that are active today one way and they can be fixed in another day to present day situations.
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  #1968  
Old 03-20-2013, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
The heir apparent is not always the eldest living son of the monarch. Sometimes it is the eldest living daughter (Queen Elizabeth was never the Duke or Duchess of Cornwall) and sometimes it is the eldest living son (or daughter, although that's yet to happen) of the monarch's deceased eldest living son (George III was never the Duke of Cornwall either).

If they change the rules regarding the succession to the throne then we may see a case where the heir apparent is the eldest child of the monarch, who is not given the Duchy of Cornwall because of her gender, at which point the rules regarding the title of the Duchy of Cornwall will need to be changed.
Princess Elizabeth was neve heir apparent, she was heir presumptive.

The only way a women can be heir apparent is if she's the only child of the deceased eldest son of the Sovereign.
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  #1969  
Old 03-20-2013, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeOfAster View Post
The law will be changed to allow the heir to have that title even if the heir is a lady. I can quote laws that are active today one way and they can be fixed in another day to present day situations.
Of course they can change, whether they will is a different matter.
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  #1970  
Old 03-20-2013, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
The heir apparent is not always the eldest living son of the monarch. Sometimes it is the eldest living daughter (Queen Elizabeth was never the Duke or Duchess of Cornwall) and sometimes it is the eldest living son (or daughter, although that's yet to happen) of the monarch's deceased eldest living son (George III was never the Duke of Cornwall either).
The eldest living son of the monarch, if he exists, IS always the heir apparent.
If the monarch has eldest (or only one) son, this son is the heir apparent.
There wasn't need to write 'he has to be the heir apparent'. So, I wonder, the duchy law contains such criteria?
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  #1971  
Old 03-20-2013, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spheno View Post
The eldest living son of the monarch, if he exists, IS always the heir apparent.
If the monarch has eldest (or only one) son, this son is the heir apparent.
There wasn't need to write 'he has to be the heir apparent'. So, I wonder, the duchy law contains such criteria?
I still don't quite understand what your point is? What criteria?
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  #1972  
Old 03-20-2013, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spheno View Post
The eldest living son of the monarch, if he exists, IS always the heir apparent.
If the monarch has eldest (or only one) son, this son is the heir apparent.
There wasn't need to write 'he has to be the heir apparent'. So, I wonder, the duchy law contains such criteria?
If the eldest son renounce his succession rights, or marry a Catholic? He'll cease to be the heir.

The two criterias are only there to cover all the possible scenarios.
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  #1973  
Old 03-20-2013, 04:55 PM
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Here's an argument regarding the title of Prince of Wales that I don't think has been considered yet.

To quote Wikipedia (the great source that it is) "Prince of Wales is a title traditionally granted to the heir apparent to the reigning monarch of the United Kingdom of Great Britain..." etc.

The wording of this (which of course by no means is official) implies that the title "Prince of Wales" can be similar to that of "Duke of Lancaster" or "Lord of Mann" - masculine in title regardless of the gender of the holder.

In all technicality, there has never been a female heir apparent before, but it has always been a possibility. The heir apparent is not the first born son but rather the heir whose position cannot be supplanted by the birth of another heir. As a princess, HM was not the heir apparent because her father could have always had a son (however unlikely). Similarly, Queen Victoria was not heir apparent because her uncle, William IV, could have had that unlikely child.

In the case that the monarch's eldest surviving son has only daughters, then predeceases the monarch himself, the heir apparent is female - she cannot be displaced in the line of succession - this would have happened had George IV died before his father, in which case his daughter, Princess Caroline of Wales would have been the heir apparent and could have been eligible for the title Prince of Wales. Had both Edward VIII and George VI predeceased their father (or had Edward VIII remained on the throne with the stipulation that his offspring could not inherit, and George VI still died first) then HM would have been heir apparent as well.

So yeah. My argument is that the female heir apparent, be it under the new laws or the unlikely circumstances of the old ones, is eligible for the masculine title Prince of Wales, and as such their is no need to change things.
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  #1974  
Old 03-20-2013, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
So yeah. My argument is that the female heir apparent, be it under the new laws or the unlikely circumstances of the old ones, is eligible for the masculine title Prince of Wales, and as such their is no need to change things.
I don't think this is the case. Didn't the politicians suggested to King George VI to create Princess Elizabeth Princess of Wales?
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  #1975  
Old 03-20-2013, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post

I don't think this is the case. Didn't the politicians suggested to King George VI to create Princess Elizabeth Princess of Wales?
I think it was suggested, but regardless that would have been a huge change from how the system works as Elizabeth wasn't heir apparent.
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  #1976  
Old 03-20-2013, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post

So yeah. My argument is that the female heir apparent, be it under the new laws or the unlikely circumstances of the old ones, is eligible for the masculine title Prince of Wales, and as such their is no need to change things.
Wiki's answer:

Quote:
When a title was sought for the future Elizabeth II, the possibility of investing her as Princess of Wales in her own right was raised. This suggestion was rejected, because Princess of Wales is a courtesy title held by the wife of the Prince of Wales. If it were used by Princess Elizabeth, it would have degraded her right as a Princess of the United Kingdom unless Letters Patent or Legislation were introduced to the contrary. Furthermore, if the then Princess Elizabeth had been given the title of Princess of Wales, there would have been the problem of what to call her future husband. Therefore, King George VI decided not to give his elder daughter the title.
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  #1977  
Old 03-20-2013, 05:16 PM
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So much speculation on so many threads.

Re Lumutqueens response on Princess of Wales. I thought that the daughter of George IV was Charlotte, Princess of Wales - is that not the case?
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  #1978  
Old 03-20-2013, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by cepe View Post
So much speculation on so many threads.

Re Lumutqueens response on Princess of Wales. I thought that the daughter of George IV was Charlotte, Princess of Wales - is that not the case?
Princess Charlotte of Wales, daughter of George when he was The Prince of Wales.
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  #1979  
Old 03-20-2013, 05:27 PM
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Thank you Lumutqueen. Nice to have an concise answer to the question. :)
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  #1980  
Old 03-20-2013, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Spheno View Post
The eldest living son of the monarch, if he exists, IS always the heir apparent...
Not exactly true, I am afraid. If, for instance, Prince Charles were to predecease the Queen, her eldest living son would be Prince Andrew. However, Prince William - and not Andrew - would be the heir apparent.
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