Questions about British Styles and Titles - Page 98

branchg · #**1941** 03-20-2013, 02:40 PM

Both titles are within the gift of The Sovereign and there is no reason they could not be conferred that way if William chose to do so.

vkrish · #**1942** 03-20-2013, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire

If the United Kingdom and the Commowealth Realms adopt equal primogeniture and the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge have two daughters, the oldest one will be the Princess of Wales, as heir to Throne, but will she also be the Princess Royal, as the King's eldest daughter, or William V will be able to give the title of Princess Royal to his second daughter?

Nice one, and how come this thought has not occured to me, given that I am so obsessed with these two titles..
Basically I think the title Princess Royal loses its relevance once primogeniture is made. "Title for the eldest daughter" sounds always charismatic and "title for the second daughter" will never have that charisma/awe/whatever.. And Princess of Wales will always fit this definition.
And for Princess Royal, you cannot standardise the definition of the title..
Ex: Now "PR" is title held by eldest daughter of British monarch.
How about..The title held by second eldest daughter, or the eldest daughter if she is not the heir..Sounds weird , right

..

So I guess it will be appropriate to grant the title Princess Royal, only when the eldest daughter IS NOT THE HEIR, and skip the title for the generation if the eldest daughter is the heir..
Anyways, we dont have to worry about that atleast for the next 30 years..

BrazilianEmpire · #**1943** 03-20-2013, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vkrish

So I guess it will be appropriate to grant the title Princess Royal, only when the eldest daughter IS NOT THE HEIR, and skip the title for the generation if the eldest daughter is the heir..
Anyways, we dont have to worry about that atleast for the next 30 years..

Yeah, we reached the same conclusion.

If the eldest daughter is the heir, she's Princess of Wales, and the Princess Royal title will not be used in that generation.

If the eldest daughter is the second child, she'll be the Princess Royal.

BrazilianEmpire · #**1944** 03-20-2013, 03:10 PM

And about the Duchy of Conrwall? They'll change the law so that Duchy can be passed to eldest child and heir?

vkrish · #**1945** 03-20-2013, 03:16 PM

Although I dont remember any specific mention of it in recent articles about Primogeniture, I stronglyy feel Duchy of Cornwall will simple go to the first child, even if its a girl.
In fact, the moment William becomes King, his 1st-born daughter (heiress-APPARENT) will become Duchess of Cornwall. She will be proclaimed/crowned/simply announced Princess of Wales at the King's pleasure and leisure..
Cornwall title is absolutely automatic, Wales one isnt..
I dont think they need another law to change that females can inherit Cornwall title. Its part of the deal. Not sure, though..

BrazilianEmpire · #**1946** 03-20-2013, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vkrish

Although I dont remember any specific mention of it in recent articles about Primogeniture, I stronglyy feel Duchy of Cornwall will simple go to the first child, even if its a girl.
In fact, the moment William becomes King, his daughter ( heiress-APPARENT) will become Duchess of Cornwall. She will be proclaimed/crowned/simply announced Princess of Wales at the King's pleasure and leisure..
Cornwall title is absolutely automatic, Wales one isnt..
I dont think they need another law to change that females can inherit Cornwall title. Its the part of deal. Not sure, though..

I believe law states that the Duchy of Cornwall can only be passed to the Sovereign's oldest son and heir.

If nothing changes, we may have a constitutional impass in the future: if William have a daughter then a son. She'll be the heir, but not eldest son. He'll be the eldest son, but not the heir.

Lumutqueen · #**1947** 03-20-2013, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire

And about the Duchy of Conrwall? They'll change the law so that Duchy can be passed to eldest child and heir?

According to the Bill itself the only laws with provisions that will be altered are these;

Act of Settlement: in regards to Roman Catholicism.

Royal Marriages Act 1772: would be repealed entirely so that the six closest members in the line of succesion would be required to ask for marital permission. Marriages legally void under the Royal Marriages Act 1772 would be treated as never having been void, if certain conditions are met.

Provisions in Acts of Union 1707, Acts of Union 1800, several clauses in the Bill of Rights 1689 the Act of Settlement 1701 regarding Catholics will be altered.

Treason Act 1351 and Regency Act 1937 would be altered.

I have read no plans to alter the Duchy of Cornwall, in a way this title could remain for the eldest son. The Duchy of Cornwall title is automatic unlike the POW so it may be trickier to alter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vkrish

In fact, the moment William becomes King, his 1st-born daughter (heiress-APPARENT) will become Duchess of Cornwall. She will be proclaimed/crowned/simply announced Princess of Wales at the King's pleasure and leisure..

The dukedom of Cornwall can only be held by the oldest living son of the monarch who is also heir apparent. In the event of a Duke of Cornwall's death, the title merges in the Crown even if he left surviving descendants. The monarch's grandson, even if he is the heir apparent, does not succeed to the dukedom. Similarly, no female may ever be Duke of Cornwall, even if she is heiress presumptive or heiress apparent to the throne.

BrazilianEmpire · #**1948** 03-20-2013, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lumutqueen

I have read no plans to alter the Duchy of Cornwall, in a way this title could remain for the eldest son. The Duchy of Cornwall title is automatic unlike the POW so it may be trickier to alter.

But the Duke of Cornwall can be only the Sovereing's oldest son and heir.

So, we'll only see this title when the eldest son is also the heir.

vkrish · #**1949** 03-20-2013, 03:32 PM

Why are they not resolving this issue.. That will be catastrophic, for Royals atleast. If a non-heir son inherits it, within 2-3 generations, the Duchy of Cornwall will become totally private..

SLV · #**1950** 03-20-2013, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire

But the Duke of Cornwall can be only the Sovereing's oldest son and heir.

But the Duke of Cornwall can be only the Sovereing's eldest son and heir.

So, we'll only see this title when the eldest son is also the heir.

Can't a LP change this?

vkrish · #**1951** 03-20-2013, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire

But the Duke of Cornwall can be only the Sovereing's oldest son and heir.

But the Duke of Cornwall can be only the Sovereing's eldest son and heir.

So, we'll only see this title when the eldest son is also the heir.

Oh, good solution.. So when William becomes King, Duchy of Cornwall merges to Crown and continue so till a monarch has "an eldest son and heir"..Cool..

BrazilianEmpire · #**1952** 03-20-2013, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLV

Can't a LP change this?

I don't think Letters of Patent can go against the Laws.

BrazilianEmpire · #**1953** 03-20-2013, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vkrish

Why are they not resolving this issue.. That will be catastrophic, for Royals atleast. If a non-heir son inherits it, within 2-3 generations, the Duchy of Cornwall will become totally private..

But the eldest son will not be able to pass the title to his own eldest son, because he'll no be the Sovereing's heir.

Iluvbertie · #**1954** 03-20-2013, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vkrish

Why are they not resolving this issue.. That will be catastrophic, for Royals atleast. If a non-heir son inherits it, within 2-3 generations, the Duchy of Cornwall will become totally private..

A non-heir can't inherit.

The DoC has to fulfil two criteria:

1. he has to be the heir apparent.
2. he has to be the eldest living son of the monarch.

The DoC will not become a private Duchy.

If we go back to George III. From the death of his father, Frederick, he was the heir apparent but never Duke of Cornwall as he wasn't the eldest living son of the monarch.

If Charles died before The Queen, William also couldn't be the Duke of Cornwall as he wouldn't be the eldest son of the monarch. On the other hand he will automatically add Cornwall to his Cambridge titles and become HRH The Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge the instant the Queen dies and his father becomes King.

BrazilianEmpire · #**1955** 03-20-2013, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vkrish

Oh, good solution.. So when William becomes King, Duchy of Cornwall merges to Crown and continue so till a monarch has "an eldest son and heir"..Cool..

It's a good solution, but not the best one.

I prefer to see a Duchess of Cornwall in her own right.

Iluvbertie · #**1956** 03-20-2013, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLV

Can't a LP change this?

Changing LPs requires an Act of Parliament not other LPs.

Other LPs can be issued but if the second LPs clash with the original ones there would be problems.

vkrish · #**1957** 03-20-2013, 03:47 PM

See now Princess of Wales can either be heiress apparent, or wife of heir apparent, right..
I think that is like Scandivanian "Crown Princess" title..
I dont like that. It should be totally defined on "HEIRESS APPARENT"
So how about modelling it on lines of Dutch Title?
The Heir-couple will be known as Prince of Wales and Princess X..not Princess of Wales.
The Princess of Wales should be strictly reserved for eldest daughter.
Heir's wife will be just Princess (1st name)
And about British not allowing outsiders to be styled Princess(1st name), that rule can be relaxed for wife of heir-apparent, Right?
What do u say?

BrazilianEmpire · #**1958** 03-20-2013, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vkrish

See now Princess of Wales can either be heiress apparent, or wife of heir apparent, right..
I think that is like Scandivanian "Crown Princess" title..
I dont like that. It should be totally defined on "HEIRESS APPARENT"
So how about modelling it on lines of Dutch Title?
The Heir-couple will be known as Prince of Wales and Princess X..not Princess of Wales.
The Princess of Wales should be strictly reserved for eldest daughter.
Heir's wife will be just Princess (1st name)
And about British not allowing outsiders to be styled Princess(1st name), that rule can be relaxed for wife of heir-apparent, Right?
What do u say?

I don't like the idea of a wife can share his husband titles, I would love to see Máxima as Princess of Orange.

It's quite simple, when there a heiress apparent, she'll be the Princess of Wales. When there a heir apparent, his wife will be the Princess of Wales.

The use of the title can be adapted for different situations.

Lumutqueen · #**1959** 03-20-2013, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vkrish

See now Princess of Wales can either be heiress apparent, or wife of heir apparent, right..
I think that is like Scandivanian "Crown Princess" title..
I dont like that. It should be totally defined on "HEIRESS APPARENT"
So how about modelling it on lines of Dutch Title?
The Heir-couple will be known as Prince of Wales and Princess X..not Princess of Wales.
The Princess of Wales should be strictly reserved for eldest daughter.
Heir's wife will be just Princess (1st name)
And about British not allowing outsiders to be styled Princess(1st name), that rule can be relaxed for wife of heir-apparent, Right?
What do u say?

I'm sorry, what's your plan?

I imagine if we have a female heiress such as the future baby cambridge, the childs future husband will use a dukedom rather than be of Wales. Similar to the way the Crown Princess of Sweden and her husband Prince Daniel are styled.

The Prince of Wales is a Crown Prince, in the UK we just don't use the term, we like to have extra titles for the same thing.

vkrish · #**1960** 03-20-2013, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lumutqueen

I'm sorry, what's your plan?

I imagine if we have a female heiress such as the future baby cambridge, the childs future husband will use a dukedom rather than be of Wales. Similar to the way the Crown Princess of Sweden and her husband Prince Daniel are styled.

The Prince of Wales is a Crown Prince, in the UK we just don't use the term, we like to have extra titles for the same thing.

Heiress Apparent: Princess of Wales and Prince(1st name) Duke of X.
Heir Apparent: Prince of Wales and Princess(1st name). Thats my plan..