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  #1881  
Old 02-17-2013, 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
To suggest that Carole Middleton, officially would use any other title than her correct one is also wrong. Mrs Carole Middleton would indicate that she is divorced. That is the legal way of things - a wife takes her husband's names and titles and only uses her own again when she is divorced.
I take issue with this. I believe it is only tradition, not law. And traditions can be changed; it only takes people to start to act differently.

I have never used my husband's surname and am not legally obliged to do so. If people ask me my name I tell them it is Ms Roslyn ----. If I am given a namecard attributing my husband's surname to me, I cross that surname out and write in my own.

I'm not suggesting my example is going to have any effect whatsoever anywhere outside my backyard, but the more people do it, the more tradition changes, and in any event it is not a universal tradition that women change their surname on marriage.

And yes, this is completely off-topic.
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  #1882  
Old 02-17-2013, 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
It's actually not that simple at all.

Camilla can't be the Duchess of Lancaster because for one thing, the female form of the title simply doesn't exist. Even the Queen is The Duke - and not Duchess - of Lancaster. The same goes for the Duke of Normandy title. Lord of Mann is reserved for the island's Lord Proprietor only and no female form currently exists anyway.

And what other titles does the Monarch have for his Queen to use?
It has been said numerous time that the wife of a titles person in Britain receives the female equivalent of their titles. The King's wife is the Queen, the Prince of Wales' wife the Princess of Wales, the Duke of Cornwall's wife the Duchess of Cornwall. Therefore it stands to reason that if this is true in all cases then if there is a Duke of Lancaster then, in cases where the holder of that title is male, his consort can be styled Duchess of Lancaster. Just because it has not happened before (owing to the fact that previously the Duke of Lancaster's wife had always been called the Queen) does not mean that it cannot happen.

If the female form of the title truly does not exist then LPs can be issues stating that that is what Camilla will be known as - far easier than issuing an Act of Parliament and LPs to change her title from Queen Consort to Princess Consort. Furthermore, the title "Duchess of Lancaster" has been used before, just not by a Queen Consort.

The reason why HM is called the Duke and not the Duchess is, to quote the Duchy of Lancaster's website, because "Queen Victoria considered that the title 'Duke' was the proper title for the holder of a Dukedom whether man or woman, that of a Duchess being a courtesy title for the consort of a Duke."

HM is Queen of 16 realms, Duke of Normandy, Lord of Mann, and Duke of Lancaster. 3 of those titles do not have King/Queen.
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  #1883  
Old 02-17-2013, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by MarNoe View Post
Will there come a time when Kate is referred to as "Princess Kate" or "Princess Catherine" rather than always as the "Duchess of Cambridge".

I must admit I don't like it when tabloids and newspapers still call her "Kate Middleton". She is the "former" Kate Middleton.
It drives me crazy too. Even more so when it's someone like Anderson Cooper. Not only as one of the more well known and watched journalists, but also as the son of Gloria Vanderbilt who *would* know that was wrong, Anderson's one of those who *really* should know better.

However...
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  #1884  
Old 02-17-2013, 01:25 AM
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Basically I think with a title like The Princess of Wales, and it happens to be Diana or Camilla or Catherine, like all news folks do, they condense. Easier to type Princess Kate than Catherine who is The Princess of Wales. Just as its easier to put in Camilla Parker-Bowles than The Duchess of Cornwall who is the former Camilla Parker-Bowles. They use short cuts that identify the personage as they have mostly been known in the press.
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  #1885  
Old 02-17-2013, 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Basically I think with a title like The Princess of Wales, and it happens to be Diana or Camilla or Catherine, like all news folks do, they condense. Easier to type Princess Kate than Catherine who is The Princess of Wales. Just as its easier to put in Camilla Parker-Bowles than The Duchess of Cornwall who is the former Camilla Parker-Bowles. They use short cuts that identify the personage as they have mostly been known in the press.
I understand what you're saying, and agree, but one thing. Catherine is not currently The Princess of Wales. She is the Duchess of Cambridge and the Princess William of Wales (lowercase t in both cases). The Princess of Wales is Camilla, who is also The Duchess of Cornwall (capital T in both cases).
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  #1886  
Old 02-17-2013, 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
Why is it that parliament would have to so act? It is not a legal requirement that a married woman use her husband's style and titles, just custom. Why is it different in the case of the king's wife? Isn't it the monarch who makes these decisions about styles and titles, not parliament?
Relaxing with a good cup of tea, I did some looking into this as the term "morganic" sprung into my head. A good explanation I found comes actually from Canada in 2005.

"This article examines the constitutional
implications, for Canada and the other members of the
Commonwealth, of a morganatic marriage in the
British royal family. The Germanic concept of
“morganatic marriage” refers to a legal union between
a man of royal birth and a woman of lower status, with
the condition that the wife does not assume a royal title
and any children are excluded from their father’s rank
or hereditary property.
For such a union to be celebrated in the royal
family, the parliament of the United Kingdom would
have to enact legislation. If such a law had the effect of
denying any children access to the throne, the laws of
succession would be altered, and according to the
second paragraph of the preamble to the Statute of
Westminster, the assent of the Canadian parliament and
the parliaments of the Commonwealth that recognize
Queen Elizabeth II as their head of state would be
required.

http://lawjournal.mcgill.ca/document..._Pelletier.pdf

I think this is why there were specific letters patent drawn up and with Parliament's approval, Wallis Simpson was denied a HRH but was able to take on her husband's title of Duke of Windsor. That marriage was not morganic, but she was denied the HRH.

In Charles and Camilla's case, when Charles becomes King, there are no titles of his that he could pass Princess onto Camilla. She is his Queen by law. He could issue Letters Patent that she'd be known as Princess Consort and maybe even make her a Princess in her own right (which to my knowledge hasn't ever been done.. even with Princess Alice) but Parliament would have to approve it as it would then be a morganatiic marriage with the wife ranked lower than her husband.

I do think Camilla's best bet is that if she doesn't want to be known as Queen, the Duchess of Lancaster is her best bet as Duke of Lancaster will be one title Charles will hold as King.
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  #1887  
Old 02-17-2013, 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
In Charles and Camilla's case, when Charles becomes King, there are no titles of his that he could pass Princess onto Camilla. She is his Queen by law. He could issue Letters Patent that she'd be known as Princess Consort and maybe even make her a Princess in her own right (which to my knowledge hasn't ever been done.. even with Princess Alice) but Parliament would have to approve it as it would then be a morganatiic marriage with the wife ranked lower than her husband.
Great sleuthing, Osipi!

Is it still morganatic if she has a royal title, just not the equal of her husband's? If she has a royal title, even though not Queen, Letters Patent would seem to be enough and parliament would not need to be involved. The succession issue isn't relevant in her case.
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  #1888  
Old 02-17-2013, 02:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post

Great sleuthing, Osipi!

Is it still morganatic if she has a royal title, just not the equal as her husband's? If she has a royal title, even though not Queen, Letters Patent would seem to be enough and parliament would not need to be involved. The succession issue isn't relevant in her case.
It's morganatic if she has a title that is not equal to her husband's. It is not morganatic if she has a title that is equal but choses to use instead a title that is lesser.

Currently, she known as a Duchess which is less than her husband's title of Prince of Wales. It is not morganatic, however, because she also has the title of Princess of Wales but choses not to use it.
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  #1889  
Old 02-17-2013, 02:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
I understand what you're saying, and agree, but one thing. Catherine is not currently The Princess of Wales. She is the Duchess of Cambridge and the Princess William of Wales (lowercase t in both cases). The Princess of Wales is Camilla, who is also The Duchess of Cornwall (capital T in both cases).
I know that and you know that but if/when Kate does become The Princess of Wales, we will still get Princess Kate or Kate Middleton from the press.

I do have to be honest here. If it wasn't for being on this forum and learning from the people here, I would probably also be saying Princess Diana. I do however, think the press and media have been lack on facts and how to present personages. Its too much stuff like Brangelina or Jlo and just presenting people as they want to name them.
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  #1890  
Old 02-17-2013, 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
It's morganatic if she has a title that is not equal to her husband's. It is not morganatic if she has a title that is equal but choses to use instead a title that is lesser.

Currently, she known as a Duchess which is less than her husband's title of Prince of Wales. It is not morganatic, however, because she also has the title of Princess of Wales but choses not to use it.
Now to be known (styled) as Princess, that would also have to come somewhere from her husband's titles. As King, there wouldn't be one. When Charles becomes King, nowhere in his titles will he be a Prince of anything. For Camilla to be a Princess and even styled as one, she would have to have the masculine form of a husband's title of Prince to take it from. If the option was to make her a Princess in her own right as Queen Elizabeth did with Philip, then her rank and style would be of a Princess of the UK which is below ranking of a King.

I really don't think Charles or the whole slew of folks at CH and BP and wherever thought this through when they said that Princess Consort thing.
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  #1891  
Old 02-17-2013, 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post

Now to be known (styled) as Princess, that would also have to come somewhere from her husband's titles. As King, there wouldn't be one. When Charles becomes King, nowhere in his titles will he be a Prince of anything. For Camilla to be a Princess and even styled as one, she would have to have the masculine form of a husband's title of Prince to take it from. If the option was to make her a Princess in her own right as Queen Elizabeth did with Philip, then her rank and style would be of a Princess of the UK which is below ranking of a King.
Exactly. In the case of Philip, his being a Prince and not King is deliberate because a husband does not take on the titles of their spouse. He is granted all of the precedences of any other monarch's consort, regardless of (or despite) his gender.

Quote:
I really don't think Charles or the whole slew of folks at CH and BP and wherever thought this through when they said that Princess Consort thing.
In a way, Royalty is kind of like any other fandom. The "creators" (in this case the BRF) say one thing and the fans (us) go insane analyzing (and over analyzing) its meaning. A lot of authors and TV personnel have said that they suspect their fans know more about the world they created than they themselves do. I doubt we know more about the BRF than they do, but we definitely have the analysis down pat.
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  #1892  
Old 02-17-2013, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
\In a way, Royalty is kind of like any other fandom. The "creators" (in this case the BRF) say one thing and the fans (us) go insane analyzing (and over analyzing) its meaning. A lot of authors and TV personnel have said that they suspect their fans know more about the world they created than they themselves do. I doubt we know more about the BRF than they do, but we definitely have the analysis down pat.
And to think I came here originally for weird looking, funny Ascot hats. Go figure.
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  #1893  
Old 02-17-2013, 03:37 AM
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So.....if Charles is King and Duke of Lancaster, and Camilla is Queen but doesn't call herself Queen and is known as Duchess of Lancaster, there should be no problem, should there? No need for Letters Patent or Act of Parliament, just an announcement from Charles. And we forget all about Princess Consort.
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  #1894  
Old 02-17-2013, 03:53 AM
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Then again, going over the link I've posted, it also said this:

"However, the declaration included in the O.D.L.
Report of 1930, the alteration of the laws of succession
in 1936-37 and that of the royal style and titles in 1947
and 1952 suggest that the second paragraph of the
preamble to the Statute should be considered a
constitutional convention rather than a rule of strict law.
The lack of assent to a morganatic marriage by the
Canadian parliament or any other Commonwealth
parliament would have no legal effect.

Color me paisley and trim my eyebrows with a banana. I didn't read far enough.
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  #1895  
Old 02-17-2013, 03:57 AM
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i say lets just move forward with the Camillia thing and stop the confusion and let her be the Queen to her husband Queen. lets also honor the fact that before there is a moment of confusion the monarchy will fix the problem in all it's glory. please note that the Queen issued LP allowing for both male and female children of Will and Kate to be prince and princess before they are born so if a future young lady is born she can be Princess thanks to great granny.
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  #1896  
Old 02-17-2013, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
So.....if Charles is King and Duke of Lancaster, and Camilla is Queen but doesn't call herself Queen and is known as Duchess of Lancaster, there should be no problem, should there? No need for Letters Patent or Act of Parliament, just an announcement from Charles. And we forget all about Princess Consort.
I just think whatever it is going to be is going to have to be decided on soon. Its not going to do the nation or anyone good to have this big anchor around the neck kind of thing happening when HM passes and that's when its going to start up. She's either Queen or whatever other title the powers that be can all decide on. This isn't picking out an online persona.

Most people in the world wouldn't see why Princess Consort wouldn't work for Camilla and to be honest, I think Camilla herself would be happy with it. She's not in this for the fame and glory and tiaras and stuffs and the public life but stands by her man. That's what a best friend does. She'd rather really be the consort and not the queen. Like Philip is. Two steps behind with a tickle when he needs it.

I can't imagine that the implications of this title of Princess Consort have totally escaped Charles' mind and if its to be so, this is the man that will delve into the legalities and the how does one do it. We just really have to wait and see. In the meantime, we find out a lot of things we didn't know before.
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  #1897  
Old 02-17-2013, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I just think whatever it is going to be is going to have to be decided on soon. Its not going to do the nation or anyone good to have this big anchor around the neck kind of thing happening when HM passes and that's when its going to start up. She's either Queen or whatever other title the powers that be can all decide on. This isn't picking out an online persona.
Yes. The last thing anyone will want when the family and the nation is grieving over Elizabeth's death is a petty fight about what to call the woman who will already, the moment HM dies and Charles becomes King, be Queen. If it's left till then and she is not to be Queen, she will have to be stripped of that title and demoted.

Quote:
Most people in the world wouldn't see why Princess Consort wouldn't work for Camilla and to be honest, I think Camilla herself would be happy with it. She's not in this for the fame and glory and tiaras and stuffs and the public life but stands by her man. That's what a best friend does. She'd rather really be the consort and not the queen. Like Philip is. Two steps behind with a tickle when he needs it.
Agreed. If indeed that's what she wants, I say let her have it. Though I do have a preference for Duchess of Lancaster.

Quote:
I can't imagine that the implications of this title of Princess Consort have totally escaped Charles' mind and if its to be so, this is the man that will delve into the legalities and the how does one do it. We just really have to wait and see. In the meantime, we find out a lot of things we didn't know before.
I am constantly learning new things because of this forum.
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  #1898  
Old 02-17-2013, 05:01 AM
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HM is Queen of 16 realms, Duke of Normandy, Lord of Mann, and Duke of Lancaster. 3 of those titles do not have King/Queen.
"Is" is a strong word for the two ducal titles. While she holds the duchy of Lancaster there's debate on whether it's correct for her to be called the "Duke of Lancaster." In any case she's consented to the title's use in the loyal toast when given in Lancaster, but actually being her own duke is a little harder. (Which I think might provide a lesson. There's a well-established principle that the sovereign can't be a peer, but the Queen and several of her predecessors have decided to allow the use the title anyways.)

And the title of Duke of Normandy is also on quite shaky ground.
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  #1899  
Old 02-17-2013, 05:08 AM
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Yes. The last thing anyone will want when the family and the nation is grieving over Elizabeth's death is a petty fight about what to call the woman who will already, the moment HM dies and Charles becomes King, be Queen. If it's left till then and she is not to be Queen, she will have to be stripped of that title and demoted.
She'd actually not be demoted if she was to be declared as being known as Her Majesty, The Duchess of Lancaster. The press and public might see it that way though.

It would right royal throw the media in the a constant loop and comfuzzlement as they try to figure it all out. The King is the Duke of Lancaster? Why didn't we know this? What?? HM the Queen was the Duke too?

Actually it might serve for them to get some facts right for once.
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Old 02-17-2013, 05:13 AM
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There's a well-established principle that the sovereign can't be a peer, but the Queen and several of her predecessors have decided to allow the use the title anyways.)
So, following this principle, Camilla couldn't hold the title of Duchess of Lancaster then correct?
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