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  #1861  
Old 02-16-2013, 07:35 PM
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Camilla has been part of of the Royal Family for 8 years now. I think she deserves to be Queen like any other Queen consorts.
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  #1862  
Old 02-16-2013, 08:00 PM
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I think it is quite likely that she really, really, does not want to be Queen Consort, and if that is the case I don't think she should be burdened with the title, but that is the only reason I think she should have a lesser title. Apart from her own preference, I see no reason why she should not be Queen Consort, but if she wants to be something else, at the moment I think Duchess of Lancaster sounds better than Princess Consort.
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  #1863  
Old 02-16-2013, 08:13 PM
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She can call herself whatever she likes but she still be Consort and still be expected act like one.
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  #1864  
Old 02-16-2013, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
At her request, The Queen granted her aunt permission to style herself "HRH Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester". This is entirely within the gift of The Sovereign, just as she never objected to people calling Diana "Princess Diana", even though that was always incorrect.
Will there come a time when Kate is referred to as "Princess Kate" or "Princess Catherine" rather than always as the "Duchess of Cambridge".

I must admit I don't like it when tabloids and newspapers still call her "Kate Middleton". She is the "former" Kate Middleton.
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  #1865  
Old 02-16-2013, 08:15 PM
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If she doesn't want to be called Queen Consort I don't see why we have to refer to her as such. There are other titles - i.e. Duchess of Lancaster - that are likely to be open to be used, much like when she became Princess of Wales but decided to go by another one of her titles, Duchess of Cornwall.

There are other titles existing and if she would prefer to be referred to by one of them I don't see why not. Creating a new title simply because she does not want to be known as Queen Consort is unnecessary, a bit ridiculous, and kind of sets a precedent. If Camilla becomes Princess Consort then what's preventing Catherine - or anyone else in the future - from becoming such?
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  #1866  
Old 02-16-2013, 08:21 PM
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All of Camilla predecessors have been Queens. I do not see any reason why she can not.
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  #1867  
Old 02-16-2013, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by MarNoe View Post
Will there come a time when Kate is referred to as "Princess Kate" or "Princess Catherine" rather than always as the "Duchess of Cambridge".

I must admit I don't like it when tabloids and newspapers still call her "Kate Middleton". She is the "former" Kate Middleton.

Maybe if she was the mother of the monarch but had never been The Queen. That would mean that William predeceased Charles and/or The Queen. In that scenario I could see her being created HRH Princess Katherine in her own right rather than being a princess by marriage only.
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  #1868  
Old 02-16-2013, 08:42 PM
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It would take an Act of Parliament to deny her the right to use her husband's styles and titles.

She also can't use a style or title that isn't her husbands at the time she is using it.

We aren't talking about an ordinary person but the wife of the Head of State whose title would be used officially and that needs to be clear.

A wife doesn't have to use her husband's styles or titles but that doesn't mean they don't hold them and doens't mean that in official records they aren't referred to by the styles and titles from their husbands e.g. The Duchess of Kent has asked to be called Katherine but in the CC she is always referred to as HRH The Duchess of Kent. Carole Middleton, when she is with the royal family and wears a name tag she is referred to as Mrs Michael Middleton - because that is her official title.

Camilla can't remain a Princess or Duchess of Cornwall when her husband is no longer a Prince or Duke of Cornwall. She has to take his styles and titles offiially or be formally stripped of those titles by an Act of Parliament - which would make the marriage less than equal. Only then can Charles give her a lower title.
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  #1869  
Old 02-16-2013, 08:43 PM
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Just curious, but what has Camillas title as wife of the future King got to do with the Succession to the Crown Act? I have read the act and see no mention of titles at all.
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  #1870  
Old 02-16-2013, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
It would take an Act of Parliament to deny her the right to use her husband's styles and titles.

She also can't use a style or title that isn't her husbands at the time she is using it.

We aren't talking about an ordinary person but the wife of the Head of State whose title would be used officially and that needs to be clear.

A wife doesn't have to use her husband's styles or titles but that doesn't mean they don't hold them and doens't mean that in official records they aren't referred to by the styles and titles from their husbands e.g. The Duchess of Kent has asked to be called Katherine but in the CC she is always referred to as HRH The Duchess of Kent. Carole Middleton, when she is with the royal family and wears a name tag she is referred to as Mrs Michael Middleton - because that is her official title.

Camilla can't remain a Princess or Duchess of Cornwall when her husband is no longer a Prince or Duke of Cornwall. She has to take his styles and titles offiially or be formally stripped of those titles by an Act of Parliament - which would make the marriage less than equal. Only then can Charles give her a lower title.
I donn't think anyone is disagreeing with you here. No one seems to have suggested that she remain Duchess of Cornwall, but rather that she use the female equivalent of one of her husband's other titles - i.e. Duchess of Lancaster. When he becomes King, Charles will be the Duke of Lancaster, therefore it stands that Camilla will be the Duchess.

Question: currently, in the CC is Camilla referred to as The Princess of Wales or The Duchess of Cornwall? If it's The Duchess then it means that there is precedent in them for a wife to be referred to by one of her husband's lesser titles instead of the main title in the CC - as there is in regular use as few refer to Camilla as the Princess of Wales even though she does hold that title.

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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Just curious, but what has Camillas title as wife of the future King got to do with the Succession to the Crown Act? I have read the act and see no mention of titles at all.
Nothing, really. We've gotten off topic.
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  #1871  
Old 02-16-2013, 10:11 PM
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The CC refers to her as The Duchess of Cornwall - the oldest of Charles' titles except in Scotland where she is referred to as The Duchess of Rothesay.

Charles it The Prince of Wales, except in Scotland where he is The Prince Charles, The Duke of Rothesay and in Cornwall (or other property that belongs to the Duchy) when he is The Duke of Cornwall.
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  #1872  
Old 02-16-2013, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
The CC refers to her as The Duchess of Cornwall - the oldest of Charles' titles except in Scotland where she is referred to as The Duchess of Rothesay.

Charles it The Prince of Wales, except in Scotland where he is The Prince Charles, The Duke of Rothesay and in Cornwall (or other property that belongs to the Duchy) when he is The Duke of Cornwall.
So Camilla as Queen Consort could use the female equivalent of another of her husband's titles when he is King officially, without needing any LPs or Acts of Parliament or what have you. As such, this whole Princess Consort issue sounds like it's really just unnecessary fuss. She could be called the Duchess of Lancaster far more easily than Princess Consort.
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  #1873  
Old 02-16-2013, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
It would take an Act of Parliament to deny her the right to use her husband's styles and titles.

She also can't use a style or title that isn't her husbands at the time she is using it.

We aren't talking about an ordinary person but the wife of the Head of State whose title would be used officially and that needs to be clear.

A wife doesn't have to use her husband's styles or titles but that doesn't mean they don't hold them and doens't mean that in official records they aren't referred to by the styles and titles from their husbands e.g. The Duchess of Kent has asked to be called Katherine but in the CC she is always referred to as HRH The Duchess of Kent. Carole Middleton, when she is with the royal family and wears a name tag she is referred to as Mrs Michael Middleton - because that is her official title.
But isn't this only tradition, or custom, not law? Traditions can be broken and new ones set. I am not aware of any law preventing Carole Middleton from wearing a name tag identifying her as Ms, or Mrs, Carole Middleton, she is only tagged as being an extension of her husband because that is the traditional way of identifying a married woman, and because I am sure HM wants it that way.

If Camilla does not want to insist on her right to use Charles' styles and titles, surely no-one can force her to do so, and there will be no need for Parliament to intervene. It will be official if that is what she, as the king's wife, does, and as long as it is clear that is the way he wants it, that is the way it will be, officially.
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  #1874  
Old 02-16-2013, 10:50 PM
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So Camilla as Queen Consort could use the female equivalent of another of her husband's titles when he is King officially, without needing any LPs or Acts of Parliament or what have you. As such, this whole Princess Consort issue sounds like it's really just unnecessary fuss. She could be called the Duchess of Lancaster far more easily than Princess Consort.
This indeed seems to be the case.
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  #1875  
Old 02-16-2013, 10:56 PM
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It's actually not that simple at all.

Camilla can't be the Duchess of Lancaster because for one thing, the female form of the title simply doesn't exist. Even the Queen is The Duke - and not Duchess - of Lancaster. The same goes for the Duke of Normandy title. Lord of Mann is reserved for the island's Lord Proprietor only and no female form currently exists anyway.

And what other titles does the Monarch have for his Queen to use?
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  #1876  
Old 02-16-2013, 11:01 PM
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I can understand HM calling herself Duke of Lancaster because she is the monarch, but why can't the wife of the holder of those titles be Duchess? Why can't a precedent be established? Is there a reason other than it hasn't been done before?
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  #1877  
Old 02-16-2013, 11:20 PM
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Queen Victoria set the precedent that the monarch is both Duke and Duchess as she was officially The Duke of Lancaster but used Duchess of Lancaster on occasions.
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  #1878  
Old 02-16-2013, 11:22 PM
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Not allowing a wife to use her husband's titles and styles says that the marriage is unequal - that has already been established as not existing in the UK in 1936 when Edward VIII suggested that he marry Wallis morganatically.

At the time of the engagement it was announced in Parliament that she would be Queen Consort unless legislation was introduced to deprive her of that title by the then PM.

To suggest that Carole Middleton, officially would use any other title than her correct one is also wrong. Mrs Carole Middleton would indicate that she is divorced. That is the legal way of things - a wife takes her husband's names and titles and only uses her own again when she is divorced.
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  #1879  
Old 02-16-2013, 11:37 PM
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Queen Victoria set the precedent that the monarch is both Duke and Duchess as she was officially The Duke of Lancaster but used Duchess of Lancaster on occasions.
Yes, but that is simply a style used by tradition when the monarch is in the Duchy on official business. The Sovereign is not The Duke of Lancaster in title or rank because the fount of honour cannot be a Peer. It merged with the Crown centuries ago.
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  #1880  
Old 02-16-2013, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by MarNoe View Post

Will there come a time when Kate is referred to as "Princess Kate" or "Princess Catherine" rather than always as the "Duchess of Cambridge".

I must admit I don't like it when tabloids and newspapers still call her "Kate Middleton". She is the "former" Kate Middleton.
If William becomes Prince of Wales I imagine the press will decide to call her Princess Catherine in the same way they did with Diana. Officially I can't see it happening.
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