Questions about British Styles and Titles

[Grandma828]

Thanks to everyone for the lessons in British history.

[Queen Camilla]

It's King Charles & Queen Camilla.

But, if Charles wants to be known as King George; then Camilla is Princess Consort Gladys or Maud or Edith or Alice or some other name. It is C&C together or else...
George & Gladys have a nice ring to it.

[cepe]

Originally Posted by padams2359

As we are all keenly aware, the palace takes serious polls very seriously, and always. Remember, once Her Majesty move to Windsor permanently, or SGC to be exact, The Palace has about a year to get a feeling on where the Commonwealth stands on the matter of Camila being crowned as Queen Consort.

Camilla becomes Queen Consort automatically - how she decides to be styled (ie Princess Consort) is up to her.

It would take an Act of Parliament in the UK to "unmake" her Queen Consort. At that point, the Commonwealth could be consulted. However, IMO it will never come to this.

[DukeOfAster]

Originally Posted by cepe

camilla becomes queen consort automatically - how she decides to be styled (ie princess consort) is up to her.

It would take an act of parliament in the uk to "unmake" her queen consort. At that point, the commonwealth could be consulted. However, imo it will never come to this.

amen!!!!!!!!!!

[branchg]

Originally Posted by cepe

Camilla becomes Queen Consort automatically - how she decides to be styled (ie Princess Consort) is up to her.

Actually, it is not up to her. Once Charles is King, Camilla can only be HM The Queen or HM Queen Camilla as the wife of The Sovereign. There is no other title or style she can hold and it is automatic.

She cannot use the title or style of "Princess Consort" because her husband is no longer a Prince or HRH. To do so would indeed require an Act of Parliament stripping her of the right to be Queen, which will never happen.

[royalistbert]

It would look very odd and embarassing for Camilla to be the only Princess Consort in Europe.

[Iluvbertie]

Even if the parliament did strip her of the right to take the female styles and titles from her husband - something every other woman in the land has the right to do - it will still take LPs from Charles to create her anything else.

The only title she could use from Charles, when he becomes King, that doesn't require action would be HRH The Duchess of Lancaster as the wife of HRH The Duke of Lancaster - not a title that has been used officially for centuries but a possibility.

Queen Victoria used Duchess of Lancaster sometimes to travel incognito on the continent.

[Roslyn]

Originally Posted by branchg

Actually, it is not up to her. Once Charles is King, Camilla can only be HM The Queen or HM Queen Camilla as the wife of The Sovereign. There is no other title or style she can hold and it is automatic.

She cannot use the title or style of "Princess Consort" because her husband is no longer a Prince or HRH. To do so would indeed require an Act of Parliament stripping her of the right to be Queen, which will never happen.

Why is it that parliament would have to so act? It is not a legal requirement that a married woman use her husband's style and titles, just custom. Why is it different in the case of the king's wife? Isn't it the monarch who makes these decisions about styles and titles, not parliament?

[cepe]

ooooh Iluvbertie - what a great idea! HRH The Duchess of Lancaster - like it a lot.

However, Prince Charles is convinced she can be called Princess Consort - style-wise, not as her actual title. Still legally be Queen but prefers to be called Princess Consort. I suppose the nearest is Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester being called that because she asked permission and was given it, even though it was not her title.

Still don't understand why this can't be done with the permission of the monarch (King Charles III)

[Roslyn]

Originally Posted by cepe

ooooh Iluvbertie - what a great idea! HRH The Duchess of Lancaster - like it a lot.

However, Prince Charles is convinced she can be called Princess Consort - style-wise, not as her actual title. Still legally be Queen but prefers to be called Princess Consort. I suppose the nearest is Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester being called that because she asked permission and was given it, even though it was not her title.

Still don't understand why this can't be done with the permission of the monarch (King Charles III)

As I understand it, all that would have to happen would be for King Charles to issue Letters Patent; it would have nothing to do with parliament. Though I now rather like the idea of Duchess of Lancaster.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by HRHThePrince

Well I took the liberty to contact both Debrett's Peerage & Burke's Peerage, the latter being less helpful, but they did give a formal response. I used the same email with both of them. Here is what I wrote & how they responded regarding the legal style and title of Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester.

Alice was "HRH The Princess Henry" automatically as the wife of a son of The Sovereign. This was her rank, not her title, which was "HRH The Duchess of Gloucester".

With Henry's death and her daughter-in-law becoming "The" Duchess of Gloucester, she automatically became "HRH The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester". She remained "HRH The Princess Henry" as a widow of a Prince of the UK.

At her request, The Queen granted her aunt permission to style herself "HRH Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester". This is entirely within the gift of The Sovereign, just as she never objected to people calling Diana "Princess Diana", even though that was always incorrect.

A woman who marries a son or male-line grandson takes the rank of a Princess with the style of HRH, along with any titles if their husband is also a Peer. The Sovereign can allow them at any time to use the princely dignity with their own name because HRH Prince/Princess is purely a style regulated by the fount of honour.

[cepe]

Princess Alice didn't need LP's - it was what she wanted to be called and the Queen said yes!

I think Prince Charles will do the same. Never mind what experts think - they said he couldn't marry Camilla - if that's what he wants, he'll do it!

My preference is Queen Camilla, Queen Consort. Why must she make do with 2nd best?

[royalistbert]

Camilla has been part of of the Royal Family for 8 years now. I think she deserves to be Queen like any other Queen consorts.

[Roslyn]

I think it is quite likely that she really, really, does not want to be Queen Consort, and if that is the case I don't think she should be burdened with the title, but that is the only reason I think she should have a lesser title. Apart from her own preference, I see no reason why she should not be Queen Consort, but if she wants to be something else, at the moment I think Duchess of Lancaster sounds better than Princess Consort.

[royalistbert]

She can call herself whatever she likes but she still be Consort and still be expected act like one.

[MarNoe]

Originally Posted by branchg

At her request, The Queen granted her aunt permission to style herself "HRH Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester". This is entirely within the gift of The Sovereign, just as she never objected to people calling Diana "Princess Diana", even though that was always incorrect.

Will there come a time when Kate is referred to as "Princess Kate" or "Princess Catherine" rather than always as the "Duchess of Cambridge".

I must admit I don't like it when tabloids and newspapers still call her "Kate Middleton". She is the "former" Kate Middleton.

[Ish]

If she doesn't want to be called Queen Consort I don't see why we have to refer to her as such. There are other titles - i.e. Duchess of Lancaster - that are likely to be open to be used, much like when she became Princess of Wales but decided to go by another one of her titles, Duchess of Cornwall.

There are other titles existing and if she would prefer to be referred to by one of them I don't see why not. Creating a new title simply because she does not want to be known as Queen Consort is unnecessary, a bit ridiculous, and kind of sets a precedent. If Camilla becomes Princess Consort then what's preventing Catherine - or anyone else in the future - from becoming such?

[royalistbert]

All of Camilla predecessors have been Queens. I do not see any reason why she can not.

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by MarNoe

Will there come a time when Kate is referred to as "Princess Kate" or "Princess Catherine" rather than always as the "Duchess of Cambridge".

I must admit I don't like it when tabloids and newspapers still call her "Kate Middleton". She is the "former" Kate Middleton.

Maybe if she was the mother of the monarch but had never been The Queen. That would mean that William predeceased Charles and/or The Queen. In that scenario I could see her being created HRH Princess Katherine in her own right rather than being a princess by marriage only.

[Iluvbertie]

It would take an Act of Parliament to deny her the right to use her husband's styles and titles.

She also can't use a style or title that isn't her husbands at the time she is using it.

We aren't talking about an ordinary person but the wife of the Head of State whose title would be used officially and that needs to be clear.

A wife doesn't have to use her husband's styles or titles but that doesn't mean they don't hold them and doens't mean that in official records they aren't referred to by the styles and titles from their husbands e.g. The Duchess of Kent has asked to be called Katherine but in the CC she is always referred to as HRH The Duchess of Kent. Carole Middleton, when she is with the royal family and wears a name tag she is referred to as Mrs Michael Middleton - because that is her official title.

Camilla can't remain a Princess or Duchess of Cornwall when her husband is no longer a Prince or Duke of Cornwall. She has to take his styles and titles offiially or be formally stripped of those titles by an Act of Parliament - which would make the marriage less than equal. Only then can Charles give her a lower title.