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  #1841  
Old 02-15-2013, 03:45 AM
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But was this a legal requirement in the 1520s/30s as it might be today? The sense I get is that legal documents must be filed today to create someone with a title. And even if legal documents were required back then as well, isn't whatever the Sovereign says the end all be all, as the font of titles or whatever? In the same way that Princess Alice was never technically/legally Princess Alice, she will always be known to history as Princess Alice because Queen Elizabeth II allowed her to be known as such. If Henry VIII referred to The Princess Mary as The Princess of Wales, and it was common in court to refer to her as such, why not list her in the history books as the first Princess of Wales? Perhaps there are court records/circulars that refer to "The Princess of Wales". Would that be enough to make it "official," or are Letters Patent the only way to make a title official?
Then, as now, the Heir Apparent must be invested wit the title of the Prince of Wales to actually hold it. For instance, Henry VIII became Heir Apparent to the Throne on 2 April 1502 (upon his elder childless brother's death) but was not granted the Prince of Wales title until February of 1503 or 1504.

Henry merely acknowledged that as his (at the time) sole heir, Mary was The Princess of Wales (heiress to the Throne) in all but name. He also gave Mary (then just a child) her own court, as well many of the prerogatives normally held by the Prince of Wales only. She was even sent to preside over the Council of Wales and the Marches in 1525, aged just 9. A lot of courtiers and even foreigners called her The Princess of Wales; among them was Juan Luis Vives, the famous Spanish humanist who played a role in Mary's education. Nevertheless, Mary was never formally invested with the title. Had Henry wanted to do so, I doubt anyone would have mind; after all Mary already was the Princess of Wales de juro. But he didn't. Moreover, after the annulment of marriage and declaring Mary a bastard, she was no longer heiress (until he passed the Third Succession Act), meaning she couldn't even theoretically hold the title.

In case of most peerage titles, Letters of Patent or Writs of Summons are the only way to make a title official. In case of royal titles, however, the Sovereign's word is believed to be highest authority and he/she is indeed the fount of all honours.
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  #1842  
Old 02-15-2013, 02:55 PM
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Okay, so I have a question regarding the title of Duke of Edinburgh. It's been established that while it's the intention if HM and The DoE that eventually the EoW will be created the DoE, but first both HM and the DoE must die and the duchy must merge with the crown - and that there are circumstances under which it will now merge and will instead end up with Harry or the DoY.

My question is, since honours come from HM is it possible for her to issue LPs regarding the duchy stating that on the death of the current DoE the title will pass to his youngest son? She's issued LPs before that allow for the changing of the inheritance of other duchys, could she not do so here and thus avoid all the speculation and possible drama (and ensure that her wishes are carried out regarding the matter)?

Also, regarding the title of The Princess Royal. I know it's a title denoting the eldest daughter of the monarch. What I wonder is can there be two Princess Royals at one time - say both HM and Charles were to die and William's eldest daughter was not his heir owing to an elder brother, would both Anne and William's daughter be The Princess Royal, or only one? And if only one, which one - does Anne keep the title or does she lose it?
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  #1843  
Old 02-15-2013, 03:06 PM
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Good points. I just wish they included footnotes with documentaries like this.
The good part about not having footnotes is that it whets the appetite for more knowledge and raises questions and that gives rise to discussions such as we have here. The information that comes out can sometimes be very in depth and by participating we really expand our own scope of understanding of how things work. Some of the knowledge presented here would take hours to present in depth in a TV documentary methinks.
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  #1844  
Old 02-15-2013, 03:06 PM
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I do believe the title is Anne's for life. There can only be one at a time.
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  #1845  
Old 02-15-2013, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Okay, so I have a question regarding the title of Duke of Edinburgh. It's been established that while it's the intention if HM and The DoE that eventually the EoW will be created the DoE, but first both HM and the DoE must die and the duchy must merge with the crown - and that there are circumstances under which it will now merge and will instead end up with Harry or the DoY.
Have a look at this thread - The future of the Duke of Edinburgh title - which explains all the possible future scenarios of the title.

Quote:
My question is, since honours come from HM is it possible for her to issue LPs regarding the duchy stating that on the death of the current DoE the title will pass to his youngest son? She's issued LPs before that allow for the changing of the inheritance of other duchys, could she not do so here and thus avoid all the speculation and possible drama (and ensure that her wishes are carried out regarding the matter)?
No, Her Majesty can't alter the line of succession to the Duke of Edinburgh title. Nor has she ever done that in regards to other titles. The only way any changes to the original Letters Patent can be made is through an Act of Parliament. Not even the Monarch can amend them just like that.

An example to explain this better. The Duke and Duchess of Fife (the Duchess being the daughter of Edward VII) only had two daughters, meaning the Dukedom should have became extinct about the Duke's death. To avoid that, and not to go through the whole Act of Parliament process, Queen Victoria simply created a second Dukedom of Fife with a remainder that allowed female inheritance. When the Duke of Fife died, the first Dukedom became extinct while the second was inherited by his daughter, Princess Alexandra.

Another example, this time when Letters Patent were actually amended by an Act of Parliament. John Churchill, 1st Duke of Marlborough had no sons and the original Letters Patent of his title had the standard "heirs male" reminder, meaning his daughters could not inherit the title. Not to let it become extinct, an Act of Parliament was passed which allowed female inheritance.

In both cases, the Sovereign's will alone was not enough to make any changes to the title. The Monarch can grant peerage titles but to revoke, amend or suspend them an Act of Parliament is required.

Quote:
Also, regarding the title of The Princess Royal. I know it's a title denoting the eldest daughter of the monarch. What I wonder is can there be two Princess Royals at one time - say both HM and Charles were to die and William's eldest daughter was not his heir owing to an elder brother, would both Anne and William's daughter be The Princess Royal, or only one? And if only one, which one - does Anne keep the title or does she lose it?
The Princess Royal isn't an automatic title; it is usually but not always granted to the eldest surviving daughter of the current Monarch.
There can only be one Princess Royal at a time
. Princess Anne will continue to be The Princess Royal until her death upon which the title will be available for new creation for the eldest daughter of the Monarch of the time.
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  #1846  
Old 02-15-2013, 04:00 PM
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Thank you!
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  #1847  
Old 02-15-2013, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Also, regarding the title of The Princess Royal. I know it's a title denoting the eldest daughter of the monarch. What I wonder is can there be two Princess Royals at one time - say both HM and Charles were to die and William's eldest daughter was not his heir owing to an elder brother, would both Anne and William's daughter be The Princess Royal, or only one? And if only one, which one - does Anne keep the title or does she lose it?
There can only be one Princess Royal at a time. So Anne is The Princess Royal until her death. When William is King, if he wants to bestow his eldest daughter (if he has one) with that title, it will have to be after his aunt has passed.

Queen Elizabeth II was never The Princess Royal as the eldest daughter of George VI because his sister Mary was still alive, and thus the title was not available.
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  #1848  
Old 02-15-2013, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Okay, so I have a question regarding the title of Duke of Edinburgh. It's been established that while it's the intention if HM and The DoE that eventually the EoW will be created the DoE, but first both HM and the DoE must die and the duchy must merge with the crown - and that there are circumstances under which it will now merge and will instead end up with Harry or the DoY.

My question is, since honours come from HM is it possible for her to issue LPs regarding the duchy stating that on the death of the current DoE the title will pass to his youngest son? She's issued LPs before that allow for the changing of the inheritance of other duchys, could she not do so here and thus avoid all the speculation and possible drama (and ensure that her wishes are carried out regarding the matter)?

Also, regarding the title of The Princess Royal. I know it's a title denoting the eldest daughter of the monarch. What I wonder is can there be two Princess Royals at one time - say both HM and Charles were to die and William's eldest daughter was not his heir owing to an elder brother, would both Anne and William's daughter be The Princess Royal, or only one? And if only one, which one - does Anne keep the title or does she lose it?

The Queen can't issue new LPs for the Edinburgh title. She could ask Parliament though to alter the LPs but...that would mean asking parliament to strip her and Philip's elder two sons of their rights - not something I think either of them would want to do.

As for the Princess Royal title - no there can only be one Princess Royal at a time.

If we go back to Queen Victoria and look at the Princess Royals since then and when they were created it shows this quite clearly:

Victoria created her daughter Princess Royal shortly after she was born. She died in 1901, the same year as her mother and Edward VII created his eldest daughter, Louise, Princess Royal in 1905.

Louise died in 1931 and so George V was finally able to create his own daughter, Mary, Princess Royal in 1932 - just short of a year later.

Mary died in 1965 so The Queen could have created Anne Princess Royal any time after that but waited 22 years, until 1987, before giving her that title.

The title is reserved for the eldest daughter of the monarch and there can only be one at a time.
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  #1849  
Old 02-15-2013, 11:16 PM
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Thanks to everyone for the lessons in British history.
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  #1850  
Old 02-16-2013, 02:52 AM
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It's King Charles & Queen Camilla.

But, if Charles wants to be known as King George; then Camilla is Princess Consort Gladys or Maud or Edith or Alice or some other name. It is C&C together or else...
George & Gladys have a nice ring to it.
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  #1851  
Old 02-16-2013, 03:16 AM
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As we are all keenly aware, the palace takes serious polls very seriously, and always. Remember, once Her Majesty move to Windsor permanently, or SGC to be exact, The Palace has about a year to get a feeling on where the Commonwealth stands on the matter of Camila being crowned as Queen Consort.
Camilla becomes Queen Consort automatically - how she decides to be styled (ie Princess Consort) is up to her.

It would take an Act of Parliament in the UK to "unmake" her Queen Consort. At that point, the Commonwealth could be consulted. However, IMO it will never come to this.
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  #1852  
Old 02-16-2013, 04:06 PM
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camilla becomes queen consort automatically - how she decides to be styled (ie princess consort) is up to her.

It would take an act of parliament in the uk to "unmake" her queen consort. At that point, the commonwealth could be consulted. However, imo it will never come to this.
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  #1853  
Old 02-16-2013, 08:15 PM
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Camilla becomes Queen Consort automatically - how she decides to be styled (ie Princess Consort) is up to her.
Actually, it is not up to her. Once Charles is King, Camilla can only be HM The Queen or HM Queen Camilla as the wife of The Sovereign. There is no other title or style she can hold and it is automatic.

She cannot use the title or style of "Princess Consort" because her husband is no longer a Prince or HRH. To do so would indeed require an Act of Parliament stripping her of the right to be Queen, which will never happen.
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  #1854  
Old 02-16-2013, 08:18 PM
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It would look very odd and embarassing for Camilla to be the only Princess Consort in Europe.
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  #1855  
Old 02-16-2013, 08:19 PM
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Even if the parliament did strip her of the right to take the female styles and titles from her husband - something every other woman in the land has the right to do - it will still take LPs from Charles to create her anything else.

The only title she could use from Charles, when he becomes King, that doesn't require action would be HRH The Duchess of Lancaster as the wife of HRH The Duke of Lancaster - not a title that has been used officially for centuries but a possibility.

Queen Victoria used Duchess of Lancaster sometimes to travel incognito on the continent.
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  #1856  
Old 02-16-2013, 08:22 PM
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Actually, it is not up to her. Once Charles is King, Camilla can only be HM The Queen or HM Queen Camilla as the wife of The Sovereign. There is no other title or style she can hold and it is automatic.

She cannot use the title or style of "Princess Consort" because her husband is no longer a Prince or HRH. To do so would indeed require an Act of Parliament stripping her of the right to be Queen, which will never happen.
Why is it that parliament would have to so act? It is not a legal requirement that a married woman use her husband's style and titles, just custom. Why is it different in the case of the king's wife? Isn't it the monarch who makes these decisions about styles and titles, not parliament?
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  #1857  
Old 02-16-2013, 08:25 PM
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ooooh Iluvbertie - what a great idea! HRH The Duchess of Lancaster - like it a lot.

However, Prince Charles is convinced she can be called Princess Consort - style-wise, not as her actual title. Still legally be Queen but prefers to be called Princess Consort. I suppose the nearest is Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester being called that because she asked permission and was given it, even though it was not her title.

Still don't understand why this can't be done with the permission of the monarch (King Charles III)
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  #1858  
Old 02-16-2013, 08:30 PM
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ooooh Iluvbertie - what a great idea! HRH The Duchess of Lancaster - like it a lot.

However, Prince Charles is convinced she can be called Princess Consort - style-wise, not as her actual title. Still legally be Queen but prefers to be called Princess Consort. I suppose the nearest is Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester being called that because she asked permission and was given it, even though it was not her title.

Still don't understand why this can't be done with the permission of the monarch (King Charles III)
As I understand it, all that would have to happen would be for King Charles to issue Letters Patent; it would have nothing to do with parliament. Though I now rather like the idea of Duchess of Lancaster.
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  #1859  
Old 02-16-2013, 08:33 PM
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Well I took the liberty to contact both Debrett's Peerage & Burke's Peerage, the latter being less helpful, but they did give a formal response. I used the same email with both of them. Here is what I wrote & how they responded regarding the legal style and title of Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester.
Alice was "HRH The Princess Henry" automatically as the wife of a son of The Sovereign. This was her rank, not her title, which was "HRH The Duchess of Gloucester".

With Henry's death and her daughter-in-law becoming "The" Duchess of Gloucester, she automatically became "HRH The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester". She remained "HRH The Princess Henry" as a widow of a Prince of the UK.

At her request, The Queen granted her aunt permission to style herself "HRH Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester". This is entirely within the gift of The Sovereign, just as she never objected to people calling Diana "Princess Diana", even though that was always incorrect.

A woman who marries a son or male-line grandson takes the rank of a Princess with the style of HRH, along with any titles if their husband is also a Peer. The Sovereign can allow them at any time to use the princely dignity with their own name because HRH Prince/Princess is purely a style regulated by the fount of honour.
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  #1860  
Old 02-16-2013, 08:33 PM
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Princess Alice didn't need LP's - it was what she wanted to be called and the Queen said yes!

I think Prince Charles will do the same. Never mind what experts think - they said he couldn't marry Camilla - if that's what he wants, he'll do it!

My preference is Queen Camilla, Queen Consort. Why must she make do with 2nd best?
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