The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > British Royals

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #1801  
Old 02-09-2013, 10:01 AM
Sister Morphine's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: North Carolina, United States
Posts: 2,725
Artemsia, Catherine isn't "The Princess William." The definite article "the" is reserved for children of the monarch (and Prince Philip). She won't be "The Princess William" until Charles is King. For now, she's HRH Princess William, Duchess of Cambridge, Countess of Strathearn, Baroness Carrickfergus.
__________________

__________________
"The grass was greener / The light was brighter / The taste was sweeter / The nights of wonder / With friends surrounded / The dawn mist glowing / The water flowing / The endless river / Forever and ever........ "
Reply With Quote
  #1802  
Old 02-09-2013, 11:46 AM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,425

You are perfectly right; I have removed "The" from Kate's title, as well as those of Birgitte, Marie Christine and Katharine.
Only Camilla and Sophie as The Princess Charles and The Princess Edward respectively.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #1803  
Old 02-09-2013, 12:06 PM
Molly2101's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: England, United Kingdom
Posts: 2,542
Camilla and Sophie can be styled HRH The Princess Charles and HRH The Prince Edward, but I have never seen it used in the United Kingdom. In the other commonwealth countries, and other visits the aforementioned women have been on, often use The Princess Charles/Edward, followed by their other styles (Cornwall and Wessex.)

Is James THE Viscount Severn or is he James, Viscount Severn? I know that Louise is THE Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor, but we only ever seen it Lady Louise unless it is in the Court Circular. It was THE in William and Catherine's Order of Service, which is where I noticed it first.
__________________
"I am yours, you are mine, of that be sure. You are locked in my heart, the little key is lost and now you must stay there forever."
Written by Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine in the diary of her fiance, Tsarevich Nicholas.
Reply With Quote
  #1804  
Old 02-09-2013, 12:12 PM
Lumutqueen's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Carlton, York, United Kingdom
Posts: 17,088
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molly2101 View Post

Is James THE Viscount Severn or is he James, Viscount Severn? I know that Louise is THE Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor, but we only ever seen it Lady Louise unless it is in the Court Circular. It was THE in William and Catherine's Order of Service, which is where I noticed it first.
James, Viscount Severn and Lady Louise Windsor seems the most accurate. The THE seems to be for The Queens children.

Something I find odd, is that in Sophie's title she is still Viscountess Severn, yet her son is Viscount Severn.
__________________
We Will Remember Them.
Reply With Quote
  #1805  
Old 02-09-2013, 12:14 PM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molly2101 View Post
Camilla and Sophie can be styled HRH The Princess Charles and HRH The Prince Edward, but I have never seen it used in the United Kingdom. In the other commonwealth countries, and other visits the aforementioned women have been on, often use The Princess Charles/Edward, followed by their other styles (Cornwall and Wessex.)

Is James THE Viscount Severn or is he James, Viscount Severn? I know that Louise is THE Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor, but we only ever seen it Lady Louise unless it is in the Court Circular. It was THE in William and Catherine's Order of Service, which is where I noticed it first.
As mentioned earlier, a person uses his/her highest available title, which is why you'll never see Camilla, Sophie or Kate being addressed as The Princess Charles, The Princess Edward or Princess William. If, however, one of their husbands had no peerage title, they would have been very much known under that style. Look at Princess Michael of Kent. As for The in William and Kate's title, was it The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge? In that case, The simply signifies the peer and his current wife.

James is not The Viscount Severn, he is James, Viscount Severn. Right now, he uses the title Viscount Severn as his style by courtesy, as the eldest son of the Earl of Wessex. However, the title Viscount Severn still belongs to his father, Prince Edward (whose full titles are His Royal Highness The Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex, Viscount Severn). When Prince Edward passes away and James inherits his father's peerage titles (assuming they are the same as now), he will be The Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn; since Earl of Wessex is the more senior title, that's the one James will be known under.
Reply With Quote
  #1806  
Old 02-09-2013, 12:29 PM
Molly2101's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: England, United Kingdom
Posts: 2,542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
James, Viscount Severn and Lady Louise Windsor seems the most accurate. The THE seems to be for The Queens children.

Something I find odd, is that in Sophie's title she is still Viscountess Severn, yet her son is Viscount Severn.
THE is for the Monarch's children who are Princes and a Princess, but in the CC Lady Louise was styled as The Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor, and it was the same for her in the Royal wedding Order of Service. I believe Lady Sarah is The Lady Sarah as well, but we only ever seen her styled as Lady Sarah.

Thanks for clearing up James' title Artemisia.
__________________
"I am yours, you are mine, of that be sure. You are locked in my heart, the little key is lost and now you must stay there forever."
Written by Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine in the diary of her fiance, Tsarevich Nicholas.
Reply With Quote
  #1807  
Old 02-09-2013, 12:51 PM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molly2101 View Post
THE is for the Monarch's children who are Princes and a Princess, but in the CC Lady Louise was styled as The Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor, and it was the same for her in the Royal wedding Order of Service. I believe Lady Sarah is The Lady Sarah as well, but we only ever seen her styled as Lady Sarah.

Louise is indeed The Lady Louise Windsor (or Mountbatten-Windsor) because she is a daughter of a Peer. In the same way, Diana was The Lady Diana, Sarah Chatto is The Lady Sarah Chatto, the Duke of Gloucester's daughters are The Lady Davina and The Lady Rose, etcetera.

To explain better, "The" is used:
- Before the title of a Prince/Princess to signify their positions as children of the Sovereign (The Princess Anne, The Prince Edward...)
- Before the title of a Peer, whether royal or not (The Earl of Wessex, The Duke of Wellington...)
- Before the title of a Peeress in her own right (The Baroness Thatcher...)
- Before the title of the current wife of a Peer (The Duchess of Westminster, The Countess of Mar...) *
- Before the title of the Peer's widow (The Dowager Duchess of Devonshire...)
- Before the style of non-royal sons of a British Prince (The Lord Frederick Windsor, the Lord Nicholas Windsor...) **

* Former wives of peers are styles as Name + Peerage title without "The". For instance, the current wife of the Earl Spencer is known as The Countess Spencer while his former wife is Caroline, Countess Spencer. Similarly, Sarah Ferguson is styled as Sarah, Duchess of York.
** Royal sons of British Princes (male-line grandchildren of the Monarch) don't appear to share this privilege. For instance, Harry is simply Prince Henry of Wales (and not The Prince Henry), Prince Richard (before he became The Duke of Gloucester) was Prince Richard of Gloucester, etcetera.
Reply With Quote
  #1808  
Old 02-09-2013, 01:43 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,731
Being a Peer of the Realm is superior to being just a Prince/Princess. In the UK, having royal rank signifies place and precedence to the throne by right of birth or marriage.

A prince or princess holds superior rank as HRH, but is still a commoner. Once created a Peer, they have a title, rather than just a style.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1809  
Old 02-09-2013, 03:19 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: City on islands, Sweden
Posts: 1,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
- Before the title of a Peeress in her own right (The Baroness Thatcher...)
- Before the title of the current wife of a Peer (The Duchess of Westminster, The Countess of Mar...)
The Countess of Mar is perhaps not the best example to choose, as there are two ladies with the title the Countess of Mar, one being the wife of the 14th Earl of Mar and the 16th Earl of Kellie, and the second is the 31st Countess of Mar and 24 Lady Garioch suo jure, even if both have the right to the title the Countess of Mar.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1810  
Old 02-09-2013, 09:09 PM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Houston, United States
Posts: 75
Did you read anything that i wrote?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1811  
Old 02-09-2013, 10:50 PM
cepe's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 4,320
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRHThePrince View Post
Did you read anything that i wrote?
I thought that Artemesia answered your question in post#1764.
__________________

This precious stone set in the silver sea,......
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England,
Reply With Quote
  #1812  
Old 02-09-2013, 11:00 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRHThePrince View Post
Did you read anything that i wrote?

Quite a number of people did read what you wrote, Artemisia replied directly to your post, and other discussed issues raised from that leading to a number of later posts to yours.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1813  
Old 02-09-2013, 11:20 PM
Sister Morphine's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: North Carolina, United States
Posts: 2,725
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRHThePrince View Post
Did you read anything that i wrote?
Yes, and several people explained it to you. Not only why Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester was styled the way she was, but why it wasn't odd that The Countess of Wessex is also HRH The Princess Edward. Read the replies to your questions before accusing people of not reading them at all.
__________________
"The grass was greener / The light was brighter / The taste was sweeter / The nights of wonder / With friends surrounded / The dawn mist glowing / The water flowing / The endless river / Forever and ever........ "
Reply With Quote
  #1814  
Old 02-13-2013, 08:58 AM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Houston, United States
Posts: 75
Listen closely, I said in an earlier post sometime ago Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone felt that if the Dowager Duchess of Gloucester didn't want to be known as a Dowager, instead of asking permission to be called Princess Alice, out of respect for her, a granddaughter of Queen Victoria, she should have been known as HRH The Prince Henry, Duchess of Gloucester as a princess-by-marriage. From the beginning I always said she could have been known by that title—others argued against it saying she COULD NEVER BE KNOWN AS THAT!

Again, after I posted it many members of this website told me it was WRONG & incorrect for Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone to suggest that the Dowager Duchess of Gloucester use such a title. And one of the members who said it was incorrect is I1uvbertie. This is what he wrote me:


“To a certain extent because she was born a Princess and The Duchess of Gloucester wasn't.

It is never done to refer to a wife as HRH The Princess male name, The Duchess of xxxx e.g. HRH The Princess Richard, The Duchess of Gloucester isn't the correct form and HRH The Princess Henry, The Duchess of Gloucester was never the late Princess Alice's style - when she married she lost any name officially at all but simply became HRH The Duchess of Gloucester. To revert to HRH The Princess Henry would be to deny the fact that she had married a peer of the realm and indicate that she had married an untitled son. On her becoming a widow the options were to insist on HRH The Dowager Duchess of
Gloucester or allow her the special style of HRH Princess Alice.”


So YES, it was odd to me that many members on this forum said it was incorrect for Princess Alice to be styled HRH The Princess Henry, Duchess of Gloucester, but then flip the script & now say (since its officially on the Royal Family’s website) its correct & okay for Sophie to be styled HRH The Princess Edward, Countess of Wessex. The Queen has the right to make any decision she wants regarding titles, and she decided to grant Alice this request.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1815  
Old 02-13-2013, 07:12 PM
Sister Morphine's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: North Carolina, United States
Posts: 2,725
Sophie is NOT styled as HRH The Princess Edward, Countess of Wessex. She's styled as HRH The Countess of Wessex. You're confusing titles with styles. Titles are what you hold, styles are what people refer to you as. For example, Camilla holds the title The Princess of Wales. She is styled as The Duchess of Cornwall. Catherine holds the title HRH Princess William, but she's styled as The Duchess of Cambridge. Sophie is legally, by virtue of marring Edward, HRH The Princess Edward, yada yada yada.....but that's not her style.

In regards to Princess Alice, she held the title HRH The Princess Henry, Duchess of Gloucester, but her style was HRH The Duchess of Gloucester. When she was widowed and her son became HRH The Duke of Gloucester, what was de rigeur for the widowed wife of a peer was to be known as The Dowager Duchess/Countess of ________. She didn't like the word "dowager", and she couldn't be simply HRH The Duchess of Gloucester, because that was her daughter-in-law. So she asked if she could be styled as HRH Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester, and the Queen consented. It's not the correct form in the BRF for the widowed wife of a peer to be known as HRH The Princess ________, Duchess/Countess of _________. It wasn't an option for her to take. That's why people were telling you it was incorrect for her to be styled that way after her husband died. It was also why people were telling you there was nothing odd with Sophie being HRH The Princess Edward so forth and so on, because legally that's what she is......but again, that's not how she's styled.
__________________
"The grass was greener / The light was brighter / The taste was sweeter / The nights of wonder / With friends surrounded / The dawn mist glowing / The water flowing / The endless river / Forever and ever........ "
Reply With Quote
  #1816  
Old 02-14-2013, 02:33 PM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Houston, United States
Posts: 75
Well I took the liberty to contact both Debrett's Peerage & Burke's Peerage, the latter being less helpful, but they did give a formal response. I used the same email with both of them. Here is what I wrote & how they responded regarding the legal style and title of Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester.

To Debrett's Peerage

From: D Johnson [mailto:XXXXXX@gmail.com]
Sent: 14 February 2013 05:30
To: Peerage
Subject:




Hello,



My name is Dameon. I have been in a debate with someone regarding the legal title of the late Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester. I read in a biography of The Queen that Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone, a granddaughter of Queen Victoria objected to the Dowager Duchess of Gloucester being styled as "Princess Alice", and felt that if she didn't want to be known as a Dowager, she should have been styled HRH The Princess Henry, Duchess of Gloucester instead as a princess by marriage.



Many have argued that styling her The Princess Henry, Duchess of Gloucester after her hsband's death was incorrect. However, after scanning the British Monarchy website, I noticed that in the Titles & Honours section for the Countess of Wessex, it explicitly states that she can be known as HRH The Princess Edward, Countess of Wessex, even though she is officially styled HRH The Countess of Wessex.



All I would like to know is could the late Princess Alice have been known as HRH The Princess Henry, Duchess of Gloucester, as pointed out by Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone?


Debrett's Peerage Response


Dear Dameon

Thank you for your interesting e-mail.

I took the liberty of sending it to a friend, Robert Horley, who has contributed much valuable work to the Debrett on all matters royal and titled, and he has sent me a considered reply (below), which he is happy for me to pass on to you. Also below is my rather less considered reply.

Best wishes
Charles Kidd

(Charles Kidd) Hello Robert, I seem to remember being told that HM waived this slightly irregular style (Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester) out of deference to her aunt wishing to enjoy a similar style as Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent - although of course I realise that the latter was already a princess in her own right. I am sure she should really have been either the Dowager or Princess Henry, Duchess of Gloucester, as this chap suggests - or am I wrong? C



(From Robert Horley) I've often pondered this and frequently searched for an 'official' notification for the change in Alice's style after she became a widow and I've concluded there is no such official notification in the public domain.
The first Court Circular reference to her as Princess Alice Duchess of Gloucester is on the 13 July 1974, when she and her son and daughter-in-law attended a memorial service for her husband at Peterborough Cathedral. She is similarly described in the Court Circular of 23 July, when she attended a memorial service for her husband at Westminster Abbey. So it's clear The Queen made her decision between the death of The Prince Henry on 9 June and this first reference on 13 July.
I believe the strict legal status of the wife or widow of Prince Henry is that she is the Duchess of Gloucester. Any other style given to her (Dowager, Princess Henry or Princess Alice) is in the gift of The Queen.
How The Queen chooses to style her relatives is up to her and not subject to the laws of the land and, as such, cannot successfully be challenged in a court of law. It was clearly a departure from what had happened in the past, but is no less valid for that. My understanding is The Queen wanted to honour her aunt in this way: for the long service she had given (and, as it turned out, the decades of service she was to give) - although your explanation makes equal sense!
Nor does she have to publish her decision anywhere. Not issuing Letters Patent or a Warrant, does not make the decision any less valid. The Queen does of course sometimes allow an explanation to be published, as in the case of the Earl of Wessex and his children.
I hope this helps but do come back to me if you want to discuss further.



Burke's Peerage Response




Dear Mr Johnson,

HRH The Princess Henry, Duchess of Gloucester – yes.

Kind regards,

Burke’s Peerage Editorial Team



78 Pall Mall, London, SW1Y 5ES, United Kingdom

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1817  
Old 02-14-2013, 09:29 PM
Sister Morphine's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: North Carolina, United States
Posts: 2,725
That's all well and good, but people still answered your question on several fronts. If you're not satisfied with the quality of the responses you received, that's not our problem.
__________________
"The grass was greener / The light was brighter / The taste was sweeter / The nights of wonder / With friends surrounded / The dawn mist glowing / The water flowing / The endless river / Forever and ever........ "
Reply With Quote
  #1818  
Old 02-14-2013, 11:08 PM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Houston, United States
Posts: 75
You have a very bad attitude I've noticed... and it is sad. You come off as if your answer & those of others are law & shouldn't be questioned. By the way you responded, I can tell that it bothered you that I reached out to historical & genealogical societies that are considered experts in the topic at hand. And according to them, what I said for sometime is actually correct, when others like you said it wasn't.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1819  
Old 02-14-2013, 11:39 PM
Sister Morphine's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: North Carolina, United States
Posts: 2,725
Why would it bother me? I don't actually care. I just found it incredibly snotty of you to say "did you read anything that I wrote" after several people took the time to answer your question. Whether they were right or wrong isn't the point. It was the tone of your response to those people that hocked me off. If you felt that those people didn't answer your question to your satisfaction, there were better, less obnoxious ways for you say it, rather then coming off like they wasted your precious time.

So it's not me who has the bad attitude. Myself and the others in this thread answered you to the best of our knowledge. If that knowledge wasn't enough, what exactly should we do? Apologize?
__________________
"The grass was greener / The light was brighter / The taste was sweeter / The nights of wonder / With friends surrounded / The dawn mist glowing / The water flowing / The endless river / Forever and ever........ "
Reply With Quote
  #1820  
Old 02-15-2013, 01:11 AM
PrincePatrick's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: New York, United States
Posts: 145
Hey everyone! I'm not sure if this has been brought up in the Cambridge baby threads (I'm a little behind in reading those) but I'm watching the documentary about Edward and Mary: The Forgotten Tudors, and the host (I think it's David... something or other) is talking about how Mary and then Elizabeth were proclaimed Princesses of Wales. Last I checked folks on here were saying that granting the title of Princess of Wales to a female heir had never been done before. Is the host just dramatizing, or were these princesses actually given those titles?
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
british royal family, consort, spouse, styles and titles


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children Aussie Princess Prince Harry and Prince William 1110 07-12-2014 10:00 PM
Questions About [non-British] Styles and Titles Lord Sosnowitz Royal Ceremony and Protocol 717 05-17-2014 05:44 PM
Diana's Styles and Titles florawindsor Diana, Princess of Wales (1961-1997) 573 11-14-2013 10:59 AM
Styles and Titles Nahla10 Ruling Family of Dubai 36 08-08-2013 12:05 PM
Abdication Beatrix and Inauguration WA: Titles, Names, Succession, Precedence Princess Robijn Abdication & Inauguration 2013 67 05-24-2013 03:14 PM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
birth charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events diana engagement fashion grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta cristina infanta elena infanta sofia jordan king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg ottoman pom prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince felipe prince floris prince laurent prince pieter-christiaan princess princess aimee princess alexia (2005 -) princess anita princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess claire princess elisabeth princess laurentien princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess marie princess mary princess of asturias queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen paola queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal russia spain state visit wedding william


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:24 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]