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  #161  
Old 03-05-2006, 12:40 PM
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Hi branchg. I wasn't so much asking which was the first to be called Majesty but the first to be commonly known as Queen.

The wives of Henry VIII appear to be referred to as Queen's in legal and diplomatic documents. A letter from Thomas Cramner refers to the divorce of Queen Katherine and the coronation of Queen Anne (Boleyn). Cramner refers to Lady Catherine probably to stress her status after the divorce but he definitely refers to the coronation of the Queen (Anne). So the term Queen to denote a Queen Consort was seemingly already in use by then.

http://www.britannia.com/history/docs/cranmer.html

I was just wondering when the usage of the word Queen started in England.
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  #162  
Old 03-05-2006, 06:49 PM
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It was pretty inconsistent. Sometimes they were referred to as Queen, other times as Lady Anne or Ma'am. Given the terrible wars and murders of the time, I think most Kings probably viewed their wives as disposable at best! And lifetimes were generally quite short as well.
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  #163  
Old 03-05-2006, 07:23 PM
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No doubt like everything in the Middle Ages, the use of the word Queen was probably inconsistent but I'm still curious as to when the term Queen was first used. The meaning of consort or female monarch wasn't the original meaning of the word so there must have been a transition between the former meaning and the latter.

But on another note, I did find this signature of Elizabeth of York, Henry VIIIs mother. It reads Elysabeth the Quene.

http://tudorhistory.org/people/eyork/gallery.html

So it looks like the usage had changed before Henry VIII.
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  #164  
Old 03-13-2006, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
It was pretty inconsistent. Sometimes they were referred to as Queen, other times as Lady Anne or Ma'am. Given the terrible wars and murders of the time, I think most Kings probably viewed their wives as disposable at best! And lifetimes were generally quite short as well.
Yes, Shakespeare did call the wife of Richard III "Lady Anne". And obviously, after Henry VIII "divorced" Catherine of Aragon, there was always debate about Anne Boleyn's title and some who were loyal to "Queen Catherine" never referred to Anne as anymore than "the Lady Anne".Even Henry was at a loss for definitively setting the record straight about Anne's title because he was making new precedents.
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  #165  
Old 03-13-2006, 02:22 PM
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the word "queen"

Hello,

I work with language and thus have some learned friends who know about the English language. I asked him the question about "queen" - here's the answer:

Actually, even in Old English the word cwen NEVER meant anything but "wife of a king" or, at minimum, "wife of a noble". The OED's earliest quotation in
any sense is from 825, as a translation of Latin "regina". It was
generalized to "female ruler" without reference to married state quite early,
and references to "Mary Queen of Heaven" date back before 1000. This is a
different word from cwene, which meant "woman" in general, usually in a
disparaging sense. (In Dutch, it meant a broken-down cow.)


As seen from the spelling, cwen the consort or ruler had a short /e/ and cwene a long one. By 1200 the spellings were queen and queyne (pronounced "kwayne"), and the latter is now spelled quean. All are from the
Indo-European "gwen-" root also seen in the Greek "gyno-" words. In
Gaelic, /gw/ was pronounced /b/, and so it is the first syllable of banshee
-- bean sidhe, woman of the fairies. (Another example of Gaelic b-for-gw is
"bard", which is from an Indo-European "gwere-" root that meant to favor or
praise. It's also responsible for Latin grace, gratitude, etc.)

End of quote. Does that answer your question?
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  #166  
Old 05-12-2006, 01:09 PM
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here's a question hopefully someone could answer: if William or Harry were to marry a woman who is a princess in her own right because she is the child of a sovereign, such as Madeleine of Sweden, what would her title be? Would she be Princess Madeleine of Wales and Sweden? and do you think that they would make her give up her place in the swedish succession?
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  #167  
Old 05-12-2006, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by margotantoinette
here's a question hopefully someone could answer: if William or Harry were to marry a woman who is a princess in her own right because she is the child of a sovereign, such as Madeleine of Sweden, what would her title be? Would she be Princess Madeleine of Wales and Sweden? and do you think that they would make her give up her place in the swedish succession?
It would be the same as when Princess Marina of Greece & Denmark married Prince George. After her marriage, she was styled HRH Princess Marina, The Duchess of Kent, with permission of George V. Both George VI and Elizabeth II recognized her rank as a princess as well.

I am not familiar with Swedish law on the succession to the throne, but I assume Madeleine would be required to reliniquish her place in the line of succession upon marriage to a foreign heir or spare to another nation.
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  #168  
Old 05-18-2006, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Reina
I thought Excellency was higher than honorable b/c I've seen U.S. Presidents ahev the prefix His Excellency and Top Diplomats (like th eSecretary of State and ambassadors) have the Honorable
I believe the American President is constitutionally forbidden to be formally addressed as "His Excellency" within the United States but in diplomatic circles I'm sure it occurs all the time.
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  #169  
Old 08-06-2006, 12:38 PM
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I was wondering if the duke york remarried could the queen make her princess her first name and her HRH Duchess of york. Or would she have to just remain duchess of york.
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  #170  
Old 08-06-2006, 12:48 PM
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If the Duke remarried, his new wife would be HRH The Duchess of York. Sarah would be Sarah, Duchess of York but would probably stop using the courtesy title.
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  #171  
Old 08-06-2006, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
If the Duke remarried, his new wife would be HRH The Duchess of York. Sarah would be Sarah, Duchess of York but would probably stop using the courtesy title.
Or if it happen maybe not she but the colour press and people would stop calling her Dss of York.
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  #172  
Old 08-06-2006, 02:07 PM
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Sarah is not a member of the royal family anyway, so I doubt it would matter much if she dropped the style, especially since she lives in New York now.
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  #173  
Old 08-06-2006, 02:17 PM
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I think it's about time she dropped it. It causes all kinds of problems, especially as she seems to insist on being addressed as "Her Grace".
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  #174  
Old 08-06-2006, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
Sarah is not a member of the royal family anyway, so I doubt it would matter much if she dropped the style, especially since she lives in New York now.
At this years's Garter Ceremony we saw that Sarah was present for the installation of the Duke of York. Am I mistaken or there is something special between both? They seem to be going along well together. Do you think that a «reunion» could be something that we could see in the future?
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  #175  
Old 08-06-2006, 03:04 PM
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Well, it's rumoured that Andrew and Sarah are seeing alot of each other but I very much doubt they would remarry. The Royal Family have just returned to normality, or as normal as they can get. They haven't been this content for years and I doubt anyone would want a repeat performance of Sarah's years as Duchess of York. So I doubt there will be a reunion.
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  #176  
Old 08-07-2006, 02:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I think it's about time she dropped it. It causes all kinds of problems, especially as she seems to insist on being addressed as "Her Grace".
I think it's about time people just stopped addressing her that way. That'd solve the problem.
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  #177  
Old 08-07-2006, 08:26 AM
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I don't think sarah would want to do that again it wasn't for her. I think they love each other and are great friends
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  #178  
Old 08-07-2006, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I think it's about time she dropped it. It causes all kinds of problems, especially as she seems to insist on being addressed as "Her Grace".
Really? I haven't seen anything written about this. Is it reliable info or tabloid trash that is reporting this? If it is true, it's inappropriate.
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  #179  
Old 08-08-2006, 01:05 AM
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The issue of what to call ex-wives of royals is a tricky one. Most ppl just call them Ma'am, because you can't call them by their given names, because you don't know them well enough, and you don't call them by Her Grace. Diana was called Ma'am and referred to as The Princess after her divorce. Sarah is called Ma'am and referred to, formally by people in conversation as The Duchess, because the whole title is described as too long to bother with.
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  #180  
Old 08-08-2006, 08:48 AM
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I doubt Sarah insists on being addressed as Your Grace as she is not a duchess. While married, she was HRH The Princess Andrew and was styled The Duchess of York from her husband's peerages. Her rank and precedence flowed from her status as a princess of the UK, not a Duchess.

With divorce, she was no longer a princess of the UK or The Duchess of York. She carries a style appropriate to a divorcee of a peer, but is granted some additional courtesy as the mother of two princesses of the blood royal.

She is addressed as Ma'am or Duchess in conversation.
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