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  #1761  
Old 01-10-2013, 10:51 PM
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With the Queen declaring that William's child will be a prince or princess, will Kate, who is "only" a duchess, have to curtsey to her own child? I know William is a prince so he wouldn't have to, but will Kate?
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  #1762  
Old 01-10-2013, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocketmom View Post
With the Queen declaring that William's child will be a prince or princess, will Kate, who is "only" a duchess, have to curtsey to her own child? I know William is a prince so he wouldn't have to, but will Kate?
Catherine is a Princess but also a Royal Duchess and entitled to the style of HRH. She is a British princess by marriage but does not use 'Princess William' because a Royal Duchess outranks a 'mere' princess by marriage and some by blood as well/

There is no such thing as 'only' a Royal Duchess. it is one of the highest courtesy titles in all the UK.
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  #1763  
Old 01-10-2013, 11:01 PM
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Royal Styles and Titles of Great Britain

The Letters Patent of 1917 henceforth regulated the styles of Prince and Royal Highness for descendants of any sovereign of the United Kingdom.

What about individuals who were not descendants of any sovereign?

The question was raised in 1923, when the Duke of York was about to marry Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon. What would her styles be after her marriage? The day before the marriage, the king's private secretary, Lord Stamfordham, wrote to the Home Office to ask if she would become a Princess and a Royal Highness, and how she should sign her name after her marriage. He asked the same question for the eventual marriage of the Prince of Wales.

The Home Office's ceremonial secretary, Boyd, replied the same day, after consulting Garter, that by virtue of the custom that a wife takes the rank of her husband, although she would indeed become a Royal Highness, and a Princess as well ( she would not use the title any more than her husband the Duke of York), without any need for a formal document. The same answer applied, of course, to the Prince of Wales's eventual wife (HO 144/22945).

An official announcement was made in the Times of April 28, 1923:
It is officially announced that, in accordance with the settled general rule that a wife takes the status of her husband, Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon on her marriage has become Her Royal Highness the Duchess of York, with the status of a Princess.
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  #1764  
Old 01-10-2013, 11:21 PM
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If you look at the wives of the present men in the royal family who are Princes you have:

Elizabeth - husband - Prince Philip
Camilla - husband - Prince Charles
Catherine - husband - Prince William
Sophie - husband - Prince Edward
Birgitte - husband - Prince Richard
Katherine - husband - Prince Edward
Marie-Christine - husband - Prince Michael.

Notice anything?

The only one to use the style of Princess is the lowest ranked of those women. Why is Princess Michael called "Princess" while those ahead of her in rank are called "Duchess/Countess"? For the simple reason that Michael has no substantive title to use so his wife uses the only one available - that of a mere princess.

Looking back at Birgitte. When she married she was called 'HRH Princess Richard of Gloucester. Why - because her husband was merely "HRH Prince Richard of Gloucester". Then his father died and he was able to move into the peerage and thus his wife went from being "HRH Princess" to "HRH Duchess".

I know it is strange but in the lexicon of the royal family the title Duke - a substantive title - is superior to that of Prince and so a Duchess is senior to a Princess.
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  #1765  
Old 01-11-2013, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Rocketmom View Post
With the Queen declaring that William's child will be a prince or princess, will Kate, who is "only" a duchess, have to curtsey to her own child? I know William is a prince so he wouldn't have to, but will Kate?
No. She is HRH Princess William automatically as the wife of a male-line grandson of The Sovereign. Her husband was created a Duke, but it is a royal dukedom by virtue of the fact it is held by a Prince of the UK.

Her title is The Duchess of Cambridge, but her rank is a Princess and Royal Highness.
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  #1766  
Old 01-13-2013, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocketmom View Post
With the Queen declaring that William's child will be a prince or princess, will Kate, who is "only" a duchess, have to curtsey to her own child? I know William is a prince so he wouldn't have to, but will Kate?
No. Catherine curtsies to those who outrank her, such as her mother-in-law and grandmother-in-law, and her child, who would be just a prince or princess, would not qualify. Besides, she is not "only" a duchess. She is a royal princess as well as a royal duchess. She just uses her senior most title, which is The Duchess of Cambridge.
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  #1767  
Old 01-13-2013, 05:40 PM
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I think the only time you will see Catherine curtsy to one of her children will be if she outlives William.
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  #1768  
Old 01-14-2013, 08:05 AM
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Title of Princess Margaret after the divorce..

Hey I suddenly got this doubt yesterday. If its already discussed just lemme know.
Once she divorced the Earl of Snowdown, what was her title?
Like Diana and Sarah, was she just given the 'courtesy' title of PM,Countess of Snowdon, instead of PM, The Countess of Snowdon?
I know she retains HRH and Princess, no one can take it away from her, but what about 'The Countess of Snowdon' title..
And when the Earl remarried, did his second wife get that proper title?
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  #1769  
Old 01-14-2013, 08:46 AM
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Margaret was Her Royal Highness The Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon from her marriage to her death. Anthony's second wife was known as Lady Snowdon.
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  #1770  
Old 01-14-2013, 09:09 AM
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Regarding Catherine curtseying to her daughters, isn't that a yes? As blood Princesses they outrank her in the Queen's private precedence of Blood princesses outranking married Princesses. Technically Sophie's daughter Louise outranks her as a blood Princess, therefore she should in theory curtsey to her own daughter.
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  #1771  
Old 01-14-2013, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molly2101 View Post
Regarding Catherine curtseying to her daughters, isn't that a yes? As blood Princesses they outrank her in the Queen's private precedence of Blood princesses outranking married Princesses. Technically Sophie's daughter Louise outranks her as a blood Princess, therefore she should in theory curtsey to her own daughter.
No!!!!! HRHs are all of equal rank they DO NOT curtsey to each other! Precedence is not who curtseys ( or bows ) to who but rather where one should stand in a formal line up.

Precedence can also be changed, the Queen did that a few years ago when she decided that when the female members come together those who were a closer relationship to her would outrank those who 'married in '.

Re: previous post Lord Snowdon's second wife Lucy has the title Countess of Snowdon ( not Lady!). She is still the Countess of Snowdon as the decree absolute in the divorce has never gone through. Princess Margaret always used her title 'Princess Margaret' she was listed as HRH Princess Margaret, the Countess of Snowdon.

Finally her former husband's name is Antony not Anthony, they are 2 separate names.
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  #1772  
Old 01-14-2013, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte1 View Post

Re: previous post Lord Snowdon's second wife Lucy has the title Countess of Snowdon ( not Lady!). She is still the Countess of Snowdon as the decree absolute in the divorce has never gone through. Princess Margaret always used her title 'Princess Margaret' she was listed as HRH Princess Margaret, the Countess of Snowdon.
After her divorce Margaret was HRH The Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon, no The. Lucy held/holds the title The Countess of Snowdon, and can be known as Lady Snowdon trust me.
They're not too different names where I come from

Quote:
Originally Posted by Molly2101 View Post
Regarding Catherine curtseying to her daughters, isn't that a yes? As blood Princesses they outrank her in the Queen's private precedence of Blood princesses outranking married Princesses. Technically Sophie's daughter Louise outranks her as a blood Princess, therefore she should in theory curtsey to her own daughter.
Catherine would only have to curtsey to her child if she was alive when it became Monarch. Sophie and Catherine do not curtsy to Anne for example.
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  #1773  
Old 01-14-2013, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molly2101 View Post
Regarding Catherine curtseying to her daughters, isn't that a yes? As blood Princesses they outrank her in the Queen's private precedence of Blood princesses outranking married Princesses. Technically Sophie's daughter Louise outranks her as a blood Princess, therefore she should in theory curtsey to her own daughter.
Firstly, ranking in the Order of Precedence does not indicate who must curtsey to whom; it's just than - ranking on official events. It just stipulated who sits where, or who arrives when, or who walks behind whom. I haven't seen, say, the Duchess of Gloucester curtseying to Princess Beatrice although the latter does outrank her. In practice, the only people British Royals curtsey to are the Queen and Prince Philip.

Secondly, you are confusing Official and Private Orders of Precedence. In the Official Order of Precedence (which is the one used for all state, official and semi-official events - the only ones when ladies might consider curtseying to each other), Kate (wife of the Sovereign's grandson) comes immediately after the Queen (the Sovereign), the Duchess of Cornwall (wife of the Sovereign's eldest son) and the Countess of Wessex (wife of the Sovereign's younger son). As such, Kate not only outranks Princess Beatrice - and all other blood Princesses - but also will outrank any children she will have.

In fact, Kate will always outrank any and all of her children until one of them ascends to the Throne. That's because during the Queen's reign, William and Kate's children will be only the Sovereign's great-grandsons (meaning, they are not even included in the Order of Precedence), during Charles' reign, Kate (as Duchess of Cornwall) will be the first lady in the Kingdom after Camilla (the Queen Consort), and during William's reign she'll be the first lady in the Kingdom (as the Queen Consort). Only if Kate outlives William and her son or daughter ascends to the Throne, will she be outranked by her own child (the Monarch).
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  #1774  
Old 01-14-2013, 12:31 PM
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Oh please for God's sake stop all this stuff..

NO ONE CURTSIES ANYONE EXCEPT THE QUEEN AND PRINCE PHILIP (sovereign and consort).
I dont understand the thrill people get by imagining someone curtseying to their kids.
Precedence has nothing to do with curtseying.
Anne never curtsied even Charles..Why will she or anyone curtsey anyone else..
Dont go with the tabloid lines.."will have to bend her knees to her" it is so amateur reporting..
Catherine will do just as the QM and Queen Mary did..curtsey him/her , only at the coronation..

And yes, Artemisia is right,

PRINCESSES OF BLOOD OUTRANK PRINCESSES BY MARRIAGE, BUT ONLY OF THEIR GENERATION, NOT THE PREVIOUS GENERATION.
Bea&Eu cannot outrank Sophie, similarly Will/Harry's daughters cannot outrank Kate/Princess Harry..
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  #1775  
Old 01-14-2013, 12:43 PM
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There's no need to shout. Precedence rules are complicated, they're confusing and in parts difficult to understand. Things overlap, certain rules make other rules obsolete. Curtseying is sometimes linked to Precedence, which if you think about it makes sense. That's why it gets confusing. Which leads people to ask questions about them and since this is a discussion forum it is allowed.
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  #1776  
Old 01-14-2013, 12:50 PM
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I am not shouting. I am just clarifying. I dont have anything against the person who asked this question. I was just angry on the tabloids. Remember the day Kate was placed below Beatrice and Eugenie, all tabloids started screaming 'Kate should bend knees to B&E', with just explaining the situation. The simple create a frenzy and mislead the people. That was I was saying.
Ifanyone was offended by my impatience, please forgive me.
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  #1777  
Old 01-14-2013, 04:34 PM
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No disrespect intended, but using caps lock online is considered "shouting" since everything is done via text. That's probably why Lumutqueen said you didn't need to yell.
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  #1778  
Old 01-14-2013, 04:56 PM
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Internet protocol has been explained. Vkrish apologized in case he offended anyone.

Time to move on.
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  #1779  
Old 01-15-2013, 04:52 PM
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As we don't see these people when they first meet each other in private we don't know who might curtesy to whom. So for someone to say that they only ever courtsy to The Queen and Philip, in private, would mean that they are a member of the family as only members of the family would be involved.

We do know that The Queen has issued a 'private precedence' for ladies only that places blood princesses ahead of wives - but that only applies if the only people present are women and in private. As soon as any man is present then the precedence is that associated with the precedence of the males and females combined.

Public and private precedence aren't the same thing - one applies only when the family is together and the other when they are in public and on state occasions.
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  #1780  
Old 01-22-2013, 12:48 AM
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[QUOTE...it is almost certain that Camilla will in fact be The Queen Consort, but will just opt to be known (at least initially) as The Princess Consort. The wife of a British Monarch is automatically a Queen and to legally deny Camilla that right Acts of Parliament would need to be passed in all sixteen Commonwealth Realms [/QUOTE]

There is no mention or title of 'queen consort' under the Australian constitution. The Queen reigns as 'Queen of Australia'. Other members of the royal family use their UK titles as courtesy titles in an official capacity when in Australia or performing duties on behalf of Australia. Why would the Parliament of Australia therefore need to pass a law to deny Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall, the title of Queen when the Prince of Wales ascends to the throne?
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