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  #1661  
Old 11-21-2012, 07:30 PM
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I think it will be the same as the Kents and the Gloucesters. An apartment in a palace in exchange for royal appearances here and there. It will be the status quo. The K&Gs were once in the same positions. They are no longer directs, and their children are not Royal. Charles is still very much into some traditions. He has two children, like his grandfather, and the Royal family was small. It ebbes and flows in size. A thousand years people, it all repeats itself, but survival is the utmost. I am sure in the last few hundred years, the monarchy was not asked to limit numbers digging in the Privy Purse.
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  #1662  
Old 11-21-2012, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by vkrish View Post
There is absolutely no question of stripping Beatrice and Eugenie of their HRH. They may be "advised" to completely lower their "profile" and they will most likely never be "working royals". So even with HRH, they will be practically living like Peter and Zara.
If "reforms' are really needed, Charles should start with his own family. He should limit HRH Prince(ess) to only William's kids, and not Harry's kids. Because harry's kids are going to be Beatrice and Eugenie of next generation..
That's exactly what a lot of people on this forum are saying.
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  #1663  
Old 11-21-2012, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by vkrish View Post
There is absolutely no question of stripping Beatrice and Eugenie of their HRH. They may be "advised" to completely lower their "profile" and they will most likely never be "working royals". So even with HRH, they will be practically living like Peter and Zara.
If "reforms' are really needed, Charles should start with his own family. He should limit HRH Prince(ess) to only William's kids, and not Harry's kids. Because harry's kids are going to be Beatrice and Eugenie of next generation..
Well it would not be without some precedence. HH Prince Alistar of Connaught lost his rank as a British prince under the 1917 Letters Patent and became Lord MacDuff. Although George V did not officially remove the style and title from HH Princess Maud of Fife he simply decided that on her marriage she should become known as Lady Carnegie. Something similar could happen to Beatrice and Eugenie on their marriages, becoming Lady Beatrice Smith and Lady Eugenie Jones even if their husbands are not titled themselves. There are always ways around things if the monarch wants it to happen. One thing about the British monarchy is that it is very adaptable which is likely why it has survived so long.
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  #1664  
Old 11-21-2012, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Well it would not be without some precedence. HH Prince Alistar of Connaught lost his rank as a British prince under the 1917 Letters Patent and became Lord MacDuff.
Interesting is that when Alastair was born, his status and title was not obvious for many. So there were certain projects to regulate the King's first cousin once removed's status and title through a Letters Patent. There were sugggestions made to the King that he should confirm in there Alastair's status and title of Prince, the same what he did with the children of the Duke of Brunswick, for whom he confirmed their titles and status of British princes as male-line descendants of George III. But, the said 1917 changes put the question of personal Letters Patent on Alastair away and he became stripped of his status by limiting it to only two (plus the eldest of the PoW's eldest).
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Although George V did not officially remove the style and title from HH Princess Maud of Fife he simply decided that on her marriage she should become known as Lady Carnegie.
But the Letters Patent of 1917 you are referring to did not implicate the Princess Louise's daughters' styles and titles. Their royal status came from their grandfather Edward VII's decision and George V did not take any actions to remove or alternate his father's will on that. He did not like it that the Fife girls were given royal status while being female-line descended from a monarch and he even did not want to allow his nieces to wear Princesses' robes at his coronation. Are you sure it was under his pressure that Maud of Fife chose to not use her princely title and royal style after her marriage to Lord Carnegie? Maybe she just wanted it? Patricia of Connaught did the same.

And anyway, both Maud of Fife and Patrcia of Connaught formally remained Princesses of the UK and their status was unchanged. It was a matter of style and address only. Do we think of the same for a potential removal of the York girls' royal status?
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  #1665  
Old 11-21-2012, 08:57 PM
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reform is not required - evolution is doing the job instead. The Kents and Glos. have something like 10-15 years left; Anne about 20; Andrew 25; Sophie and Edward - about 25-30. But all of these reducing in capacity over those time scales. Thse will not be "replaced" by their children. So the family will reduce.

Charles will not, I think, take any drastic action. New LPs will depend on the marriages/off-spring of William and Harry. Lots of children by both is a different future and requirement to, say, Harry or William not having any children. The scale of this will see whether or not Harry's children would be Prince/Princeess

If neither have any children then HRH Princess Beatrice and her children take a position centre stage. So all options should remain available
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  #1666  
Old 11-21-2012, 09:00 PM
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Exactly. Natural Selection.
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  #1667  
Old 11-22-2012, 09:33 PM
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During the funeral for the Queen Mother, Garter styled her as the "Most high, most mighty and most excellent Princess Elisabeth, Queen Dowager and Queen Mother"

Is this the usual formal style for a deceased queen consort or did HM specially grant her mum this style for her funeral?
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  #1668  
Old 11-22-2012, 10:59 PM
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It was granted by The Queen as the correct style would have been The Princess Albert. But since she granted her two aunts the courtesy of using their names, of course she would certainly do the same for her mother when reciting her styles and titles at her funeral.
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  #1669  
Old 11-23-2012, 08:50 AM
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Thanks. What about the "Most high, most mighty and most excellent" ?

List of titles and honours of Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  #1670  
Old 11-23-2012, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Thanks. What about the "Most high, most mighty and most excellent" ?

List of titles and honours of Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It's a very old fashioned and traditional form of styling royals and top nobles in the most formal way. For example, King James was styled as the most high and mighty Prince James by the translators and editors of the King James Bible.

Quote:
John Logan: Analogia honorum (1677)
  • "A Duke hath the Title of Grace; and being written unto is styled, Most High, Potent, and Noble Prince. And Dukes of the Royal Blood are styled, Most High, most Mighty, and Illustrious Princes."
  • [A Marquiss] "hath the Title of most Noble, most Honourable, and Potent Prince"
  • "An Earl had formerly the Title of Prince; but now it is Most Potent and Noble Lord, as also The Right Honourable and truly Noble."
  • [A Viscount] "hath the Title of the Right Honourable and truly Noble, or Potent Lord"
Randle Holme: The Academy of Armory (1688)
  • "A Duke is Stiled, and Esteemed Princely, and generally Gracious, and Excellent: the High and Mighty Prince, or Most High Potent and Noble Prince.
  • [The Marquess] "is Stiled as the Duke, Earl, and Viscount are by the King (Consanguinei Nostri) our cousins: and if he be written unto, he is titled the most Noble, and Potent Lord: or the Right Honorable and Grand (or puissant) Seignor.
  • [The Earl] "is stiled the most Noble and Potent Lord, or the thrice honourable and puissant Seignior, W. Earl of A. Viscount B. Baron F. and G. Knight of the thrice Noble Order of the Garter, &c.
  • "the Viscount is stiled, The Right Honourable Lord, or The Right Noble and Potent Lord, or grave Seignior, &c." [Baron]: "The Right Noble Lord A. B. Baron D, &c."
The Laws of Honour (1724)
  • "A Duke hath the Title of Grace, and being writ to, is stil'd, most High, Potent and Noble Prince: And Dukes of the Blood are stil'd, most High, most Mighty, and Illustrious Princes." (p. 15) "Dukes are usually stil'd by the King or Queen our Right Trusty and Right entirely Beloved Cousin, and when of the Privy Council, then with the Addition of Counsellors." (p. 17)
  • "A marquis hath the stile of most Noble, most Honourable and Potent Prince" (p. 38) "Marquisses are usually stil'd by the King or Queen our Right Trusty and Entirely Beloved Cousin, and when of the Privy Council, then with the Addition of Councellors." (p. 40)
  • "An Earl had formerly the Stile or Title of Prince, as FDukes and Marquisses have, but now it is most Potent and Noble Lord: As also, the Right Honourable and truly Noble." (p. 44) "Earls are usually stil'd by the King (or QUeen) Our Right Trusty and right Well-Beloved Cousin; and when the Privy-Council, then with the Addition of --- and Counsellors." (p. 47)
  • "A Viscount hath the Title of Right Honourable, and truly Noble, or Potent Lord. ... usually stil'd our right Trusty and well Beloved Cousin ... (p. 104)
  • "Most noble and Right Honourable Barons ... Right Trusty and Well-beloved" (p. 149)
The Style of Prince outside the Royal Family

The Style of Prince outside the Royal Family
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  #1671  
Old 11-23-2012, 03:05 PM
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"Dukes of the Royal Blood are styled, Most High, most Mighty, and Illustrious Princes." - Thats cool. So can William use this style or is it too old fashioned?
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  #1672  
Old 11-23-2012, 03:17 PM
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Technically speaking, yes, William - as a Royal Duke - can use the styling.
However, I really don't see that ever happening in real life apart from some extremely ceremonious occasions because, let's face it, the styles are very old-fashioned.
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  #1673  
Old 11-23-2012, 03:36 PM
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Very old fashioned indeed and would sound more than a bit pompous if used in an introduction so perhaps the only time you might hear it used would be at a funeral where Garter King of Arms would read out all his titles and honours.
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  #1674  
Old 11-23-2012, 03:58 PM
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Where would 'His Royal Highness' be inserted I wonder?

HRH, The Most High, most Mighty, and Illustrious Prince William, Duke of Cambridge etc

I just think this is such a cool style to use lol
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  #1675  
Old 11-23-2012, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Very old fashioned indeed and would sound more than a bit pompous if used in an introduction so perhaps the only time you might hear it used would be at a funeral where Garter King of Arms would read out all his titles and honours.
I'm sure that style of him will be used at leat two times, in the official proclamation of his accession and at his funeral, as you've pointed it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Where would 'His Royal Highness' be inserted I wonder?

HRH, The Most High, most Mighty, and Illustrious Prince William, Duke of Cambridge etc

I just think this is such a cool style to use lol
I like it very much too. The styles sound great.
HRH/HH/HSH are not in there. I think that most high, mighty, excellent and illustrious is good enough. As for the Dukes, in the most formal cases their style is usually abbreviated to Most Noble.
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  #1676  
Old 11-23-2012, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
During the funeral for the Queen Mother, Garter styled her as the "Most high, most mighty and most excellent Princess Elisabeth, Queen Dowager and Queen Mother"

Is this the usual formal style for a deceased queen consort or did HM specially grant her mum this style for her funeral?
I can't find the recording anymore (it was on the BBC's On This Day site, which is no longer as active as it used to be), but I believe it was used for Queen Mary as well.

Edit: I found it!
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  #1677  
Old 11-24-2012, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by wbenson View Post
I can't find the recording anymore (it was on the BBC's On This Day site, which is no longer as active as it used to be), but I believe it was used for Queen Mary as well.

Edit: I found it!
The difference is she was a princess (by birth, in her own) and for Queen Mum her personal style of princess was used by courtesy as she was a princess but it was the Princess Albert not Princess Elizabeth.
Generally, sovereigns and queens dowager are surely introduced in that style at their funerals and the sovereigns are also given it in the official proclamations of their accession.
Do you know any examples of such usage for ordinary members of the Royal Family in our times?
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  #1678  
Old 11-24-2012, 02:17 PM
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I was under the impression from other questions I have asked that once a person is married to the monarch they gain royal status in their own right. So then they are a princess of the united kingdom.
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  #1679  
Old 11-24-2012, 02:34 PM
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I was under the impression from other questions I have asked that once a person is married to the monarch they gain royal status in their own right. So then they are a princess of the united kingdom.
Actually when Philip married Princess Elizabeth, he became HRH The Duke of Edinburgh by her father George VI. He did not become HRH The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh until Queen Elizabeth II endowed him with that title in 1957. It is not automatic that one becomes a prince or princess of the UK in their own right by marrying a sovereign.
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  #1680  
Old 11-24-2012, 02:35 PM
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Women become princesses by virtue of taking their husbands styles under common law but a man doesn't become a prince by marrying a princess.

It is officially announced that, in accordance with the settled general rule that a wife takes the status of her husband, Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon on her marriage has become Her Royal Highness the Duchess of York, with the status of a Princess.

Times of April 28, 1923

Royal Styles and Titles of Great Britain
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