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  #1661  
Old 11-23-2012, 09:50 AM
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Thanks. What about the "Most high, most mighty and most excellent" ?

List of titles and honours of Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  #1662  
Old 11-23-2012, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Thanks. What about the "Most high, most mighty and most excellent" ?

List of titles and honours of Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It's a very old fashioned and traditional form of styling royals and top nobles in the most formal way. For example, King James was styled as the most high and mighty Prince James by the translators and editors of the King James Bible.

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John Logan: Analogia honorum (1677)
  • "A Duke hath the Title of Grace; and being written unto is styled, Most High, Potent, and Noble Prince. And Dukes of the Royal Blood are styled, Most High, most Mighty, and Illustrious Princes."
  • [A Marquiss] "hath the Title of most Noble, most Honourable, and Potent Prince"
  • "An Earl had formerly the Title of Prince; but now it is Most Potent and Noble Lord, as also The Right Honourable and truly Noble."
  • [A Viscount] "hath the Title of the Right Honourable and truly Noble, or Potent Lord"
Randle Holme: The Academy of Armory (1688)
  • "A Duke is Stiled, and Esteemed Princely, and generally Gracious, and Excellent: the High and Mighty Prince, or Most High Potent and Noble Prince.
  • [The Marquess] "is Stiled as the Duke, Earl, and Viscount are by the King (Consanguinei Nostri) our cousins: and if he be written unto, he is titled the most Noble, and Potent Lord: or the Right Honorable and Grand (or puissant) Seignor.
  • [The Earl] "is stiled the most Noble and Potent Lord, or the thrice honourable and puissant Seignior, W. Earl of A. Viscount B. Baron F. and G. Knight of the thrice Noble Order of the Garter, &c.
  • "the Viscount is stiled, The Right Honourable Lord, or The Right Noble and Potent Lord, or grave Seignior, &c." [Baron]: "The Right Noble Lord A. B. Baron D, &c."
The Laws of Honour (1724)
  • "A Duke hath the Title of Grace, and being writ to, is stil'd, most High, Potent and Noble Prince: And Dukes of the Blood are stil'd, most High, most Mighty, and Illustrious Princes." (p. 15) "Dukes are usually stil'd by the King or Queen our Right Trusty and Right entirely Beloved Cousin, and when of the Privy Council, then with the Addition of Counsellors." (p. 17)
  • "A marquis hath the stile of most Noble, most Honourable and Potent Prince" (p. 38) "Marquisses are usually stil'd by the King or Queen our Right Trusty and Entirely Beloved Cousin, and when of the Privy Council, then with the Addition of Councellors." (p. 40)
  • "An Earl had formerly the Stile or Title of Prince, as FDukes and Marquisses have, but now it is most Potent and Noble Lord: As also, the Right Honourable and truly Noble." (p. 44) "Earls are usually stil'd by the King (or QUeen) Our Right Trusty and right Well-Beloved Cousin; and when the Privy-Council, then with the Addition of --- and Counsellors." (p. 47)
  • "A Viscount hath the Title of Right Honourable, and truly Noble, or Potent Lord. ... usually stil'd our right Trusty and well Beloved Cousin ... (p. 104)
  • "Most noble and Right Honourable Barons ... Right Trusty and Well-beloved" (p. 149)
The Style of Prince outside the Royal Family

The Style of Prince outside the Royal Family
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  #1663  
Old 11-23-2012, 04:05 PM
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"Dukes of the Royal Blood are styled, Most High, most Mighty, and Illustrious Princes." - Thats cool. So can William use this style or is it too old fashioned?
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  #1664  
Old 11-23-2012, 04:17 PM
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Technically speaking, yes, William - as a Royal Duke - can use the styling.
However, I really don't see that ever happening in real life apart from some extremely ceremonious occasions because, let's face it, the styles are very old-fashioned.
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  #1665  
Old 11-23-2012, 04:36 PM
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Very old fashioned indeed and would sound more than a bit pompous if used in an introduction so perhaps the only time you might hear it used would be at a funeral where Garter King of Arms would read out all his titles and honours.
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  #1666  
Old 11-23-2012, 04:58 PM
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Where would 'His Royal Highness' be inserted I wonder?

HRH, The Most High, most Mighty, and Illustrious Prince William, Duke of Cambridge etc

I just think this is such a cool style to use lol
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  #1667  
Old 11-23-2012, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Very old fashioned indeed and would sound more than a bit pompous if used in an introduction so perhaps the only time you might hear it used would be at a funeral where Garter King of Arms would read out all his titles and honours.
I'm sure that style of him will be used at leat two times, in the official proclamation of his accession and at his funeral, as you've pointed it out.

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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Where would 'His Royal Highness' be inserted I wonder?

HRH, The Most High, most Mighty, and Illustrious Prince William, Duke of Cambridge etc

I just think this is such a cool style to use lol
I like it very much too. The styles sound great.
HRH/HH/HSH are not in there. I think that most high, mighty, excellent and illustrious is good enough. As for the Dukes, in the most formal cases their style is usually abbreviated to Most Noble.
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  #1668  
Old 11-23-2012, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
During the funeral for the Queen Mother, Garter styled her as the "Most high, most mighty and most excellent Princess Elisabeth, Queen Dowager and Queen Mother"

Is this the usual formal style for a deceased queen consort or did HM specially grant her mum this style for her funeral?
I can't find the recording anymore (it was on the BBC's On This Day site, which is no longer as active as it used to be), but I believe it was used for Queen Mary as well.

Edit: I found it!
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  #1669  
Old 11-24-2012, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by wbenson View Post
I can't find the recording anymore (it was on the BBC's On This Day site, which is no longer as active as it used to be), but I believe it was used for Queen Mary as well.

Edit: I found it!
The difference is she was a princess (by birth, in her own) and for Queen Mum her personal style of princess was used by courtesy as she was a princess but it was the Princess Albert not Princess Elizabeth.
Generally, sovereigns and queens dowager are surely introduced in that style at their funerals and the sovereigns are also given it in the official proclamations of their accession.
Do you know any examples of such usage for ordinary members of the Royal Family in our times?
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  #1670  
Old 11-24-2012, 03:17 PM
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I was under the impression from other questions I have asked that once a person is married to the monarch they gain royal status in their own right. So then they are a princess of the united kingdom.
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  #1671  
Old 11-24-2012, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by DukeOfAster View Post
I was under the impression from other questions I have asked that once a person is married to the monarch they gain royal status in their own right. So then they are a princess of the united kingdom.
Actually when Philip married Princess Elizabeth, he became HRH The Duke of Edinburgh by her father George VI. He did not become HRH The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh until Queen Elizabeth II endowed him with that title in 1957. It is not automatic that one becomes a prince or princess of the UK in their own right by marrying a sovereign.
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  #1672  
Old 11-24-2012, 03:35 PM
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Women become princesses by virtue of taking their husbands styles under common law but a man doesn't become a prince by marrying a princess.

It is officially announced that, in accordance with the settled general rule that a wife takes the status of her husband, Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon on her marriage has become Her Royal Highness the Duchess of York, with the status of a Princess.

Times of April 28, 1923

Royal Styles and Titles of Great Britain
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  #1673  
Old 11-24-2012, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi
Actually when Philip married Princess Elizabeth, he became HRH The Duke of Edinburgh by her father George VI. He did not become HRH The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh until Queen Elizabeth II endowed him with that title in 1957. It is not automatic that one becomes a prince or princess of the UK in their own right by marrying a sovereign.
That is by marrying a male monarch.

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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl
Thanks for the link.
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  #1674  
Old 11-24-2012, 04:33 PM
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I believe The Letters Patent of 1917 were completely personal to George V. His grandchildren would be Princes and Princesses throughout his lifetime and theirs, as is the case now. His great affection of the Princess Elizabeth was obvious. He probable felt that he would never see female line great grandchildren. He was correcting the orders of QV, who basically made everyone she was related to, or would make all of her decendents Princes or Princesses no matter how far they would now be from the sovereign.
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  #1675  
Old 11-24-2012, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
It is officially announced that, in accordance with the settled general rule that a wife takes the status of her husband, Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon on her marriage has become Her Royal Highness the Duchess of York, with the status of a Princess.
Times of April 28, 1923
I did not say that Queen Mum was not a princess at all. I wanted to emphasize here the difference between a princess by birth and in her own right (and style) and a princess by marriage only, who takes her status, title and style from her husband (and in the UK is even styled a Princess plus her husband's name). The first one was, for example, Queen Mary, born Princess Mary of Teck, and the second one (and first in history since Catherine Parr, the sixth and final wife of Henry VIII) was Queen Mum, born a commoner styled Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon. Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother was a Princess of the UK by marriage styled as The Princess Albert not Princess Elizabeth but under her daughter's will and according to old customs, she was styled like that at her funeral. It was because, first, her precedessors were all styled like that and second, her sisters-in law (except the Duchess of Windsor) were given the personal princely style by EII too.

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Originally Posted by padams2359 View Post
I believe The Letters Patent of 1917 were completely personal to George V. His grandchildren would be Princes and Princesses throughout his lifetime and theirs, as is the case now. His great affection of the Princess Elizabeth was obvious. He probable felt that he would never see female line great grandchildren. He was correcting the orders of QV, who basically made everyone she was related to, or would make all of her decendents Princes or Princesses no matter how far they would now be from the sovereign.
Before the Letters Patent of 1917, male-line great-grandchildren of a Sovereign were also Princes and Princesses of the UK by birth but with the lesser style of Highness. Thus, the only child of Prince Arthur of Connaught, a grandson of Victoria through her son Arthur, Duke of Connaught, Alastair, was styled His Highness Prince Alastair of Connaught since his birth until the said Letters Patent of 1917 stripped him of that status and he become a commoner by law known as Earl of Macduff. Actually, he was the only member of the immediate Royal Family who was affected this way by George V's changes. Of course, there were the Hanoverian royal relatives of the King, far more descended in male-line from George III than Alastair was from Victoria, who were recognised with their titles of Princes and Princesses of Great Britain and Ireland (not the UK) by the King several years before he revoked it all by limiting the princely titles and status in his Letters Patent of 1917.
Until 1917 additionally male-line great-grandchildren were British princes and princesses by birth, so it's not like you said that Victoria wanted everyone descended from her to be British princes and princesses. It's true she was elevating her relatives in their styles, like her Battenberg female-line grandchildren, who were raised in the UK from their German Serne Highness to Highness, but they were never considered Princes of Blood Royal of the UK.
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  #1676  
Old 11-24-2012, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by DukeOfAster View Post
I was under the impression from other questions I have asked that once a person is married to the monarch they gain royal status in their own right. So then they are a princess of the united kingdom.
A man cannot take the status of his wife in the UK. In Philip's case, George VI created him a Royal Highness the day before his wedding to The Princess Elizabeth, and The Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth and Baron Greenwich the next morning. At that point, Philip was a Duke of the Realm with royal rank in his own right when he married the future Queen.

In 1957, The Queen formally issued Letters Patent creating Philip a Prince of the UK in his own right with the style of "The Prince Philip".

A woman does automatically take the status of her husband upon marriage. As we saw in 1936 when Edward VIII wanted to marry Wallis Simpson, but suggested she take a lesser style and title other than Queen, to make it more acceptable.

The Government and the Dominions agreed the wife of The King is automatically Queen in her own right and no other style or title applies. Since they refused to introduce legislation allowing The King to marry her morganatically, he abdicated the throne.
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Old 11-24-2012, 07:29 PM
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The Queen issued Letters Patent dated August 21st, 1996 which regulated royal style & titles after divorce. As such, the Princess of Wales & the Duchess of York, lost the style and prefix of Royal Highness.

Since Diana was legally no longer a Royal Highness, if she had lived, would she have been required to curtsy to her daughter in law, Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge?
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:28 PM
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Since Diana was legally no longer a Royal Highness, if she had lived, would she have been required to curtsy to her daughter in law, Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge?
In all probability, she wouldn't have to. Despite the divorce and the loss of the style of Royal Highness, the Queen made sure Diana (as mother of the future King) was still accorded the same precedence and ranking she had during her marriage to Prince Charles - meaning she was the third lady in the Kingdom after the Queen and the Queen Mother.

Now, had Diana lived, she would have certainly had lower precedence than Camilla (the current wife of the Prince of Wales) but it is likely the Queen would have still accorded her a precedence above that of William and Harry's wives.

I think it would have largely depended on how well Diana's relationship with the Royal Family would be (and there were signs of improvement at the time of her death, at least in regards to Prince Charles), or how popular she remained (and her popularity was on the decline before her death; most articles on Diana immediately preceding her death were highly critical). If she maintained good, cordial relations with the Queen and Prince Charles, I daresay her precedence wouldn't have changed (meaning right now it would be The Queen -> The Duchess of Cornwall -> Diana, Princess of Wales -> The Countess of Wessex -> The Duchess of Cambridge). However, if she became a controversial figure due to her lifestyle or other issues, she would have most probably lost her precedence, mother of the future King or not. Likewise, had Diana re-married, I'm almost certain she would have been accorded a much lower precedence (certainly below Sophie and probably Kate too), or would have none at all.

Of course, this is just speculation on my part' no one can predict how things would have been had Diana lived.
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by HRHThePrince View Post
The Queen issued Letters Patent dated August 21st, 1996 which regulated royal style & titles after divorce. As such, the Princess of Wales & the Duchess of York, lost the style and prefix of Royal Highness.

Since Diana was legally no longer a Royal Highness, if she had lived, would she have been required to curtsy to her daughter in law, Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge?
Wise, Elizabeth. People may have wanted more for Di - but when you think about this in general it makes perfect sense. Without this, when people re-marry, there is a real mess.

EDIT: Having just read Artemisia's post below - I get that being the boy's MOM counted for something, but still give Elizabeth credit because it is easier to make an exception, than to take something back when an engagement, death, birth of other children, etc. happens.
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:02 PM
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Royal Styles and Titles of Great Britain: Documents

The link above has the Letters Patent regarding former wives and below is the announcement as it appeared in the Gazette for anyone thats interested

Buckingham Palace
The Queen has been pleased by Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm dated 21st August 1996, to declare that a former wife (other than a widow until she shall remarry) of a son of a Sovereign of these Realms, of a son of a son of a Sovereign and of the eldest living son of the eldest son of The Prince of Wales shall not be entitled to hold and enjoy the style, title or attribute of Royal Highness.

(London Gazette, issue 54510, Aug 30, 1996, p. 1/11603.)
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