The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > British Royals

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #1621  
Old 11-18-2012, 07:44 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by cepe View Post


Artemesia - that is very interesting - I had no idea. But do you think that it was more about distancing the BRF from the germanic background rather than merely reducing those holding titles?

IMO, I don't think Charles would take away the titles from the Yorks. IT could cause a major rift in the family.
Well HH Prince Alistar of Connaught, grandson of 1st Duke of Connaught, suffered the same fate under the 1917 Lettiers Patent. He ceased being a British prince and became Lord Macduff. Until his death he was heir to both the Connaught & Strathern dukedoms through his father and to his mothers Fife dukedom.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1622  
Old 11-18-2012, 07:45 PM
AnnEliza's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Seattle, United States
Posts: 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by ladongas View Post
Thanks, but...If she were the daughter of a peer, wouldn't she be Lady Gaga, rather than Lady Finger (assuming she was named
Gaga Finger)? Would Sophie ever be called Lady Wessex?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that although a non-royal countess would be addressed as Lady xxx, in the case of The Countess of Wessex, she would be properly addressed as Your Royal Highness rather than my lady, wouldn't she?
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1623  
Old 11-18-2012, 07:49 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by McKeen View Post
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that although a non-royal countess would be addressed as Lady xxx, in the case of The Countess of Wessex, she would be properly addressed as Your Royal Highness rather than my lady, wouldn't she?
you are correct.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1624  
Old 11-18-2012, 07:50 PM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by cepe View Post


Artemesia - that is very interesting - I had no idea. But do you think that it was more about distancing the BRF from the germanic background rather than merely reducing those holding titles?

IMO, I don't think Charles would take away the titles from the Yorks. IT could cause a major rift in the family.
I would definitely agree that it was a measure to distance the British Royal Family from their German relatives. At about the same time as the Letters Patent 1917, Titles Deprivation Act 1917 was passed (unlike the former, it was not an LP but an Act of the Parliament), which ordered those who had born arms against the United Kingdom and/or its allies during World War I to be deprived of their British titles (peerage and royal alike).

At the same time, the Letters Patent of 1917 was one of the first documents which very clearly defined who was entitled to which titles and styles. Just think of it, before the LP, a great-great-great-granddaughter of a Monarch (such as Frederica of Hanover and Brunswick-Luneburg) was entitled to the title of a British Princess.

While I doubt Charles will actually strip his nieces of their royal titles, I think some sort of Letters Patent will be passed though; downsizing the Royal Family is not just a whim of Charles - it is a necessity in our times. Perhaps the changes will not concern living members of the Royal Family but only Charles' own descendants.
Reply With Quote
  #1625  
Old 11-18-2012, 08:02 PM
AdmirerUS's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 2,725
Quote:
Originally Posted by cepe View Post


Artemesia - that is very interesting - I had no idea. But do you think that it was more about distancing the BRF from the germanic background rather than merely reducing those holding titles?

IMO, I don't think Charles would take away the titles from the Yorks. IT could cause a major rift in the family.
I think things are not entirely cordial now () and would get much colder.

How do you think the public in Britain would take it, if Beatrice and Eugenie were "unmade" princesses. Would it be overwhelmingly liked, loathed or would it be no big deal?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1626  
Old 11-18-2012, 08:08 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,260
My guess is it would be no big deal for the public if they ceased to be HRH and princess. They might even like it themselves and feel the loss would give them more opportunities to live their own lives, although I doubt their father would like it and no doubt the DM would have a field day writing stories about family discord.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1627  
Old 11-18-2012, 08:16 PM
cepe's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 4,599
At the moment, the general public are more concerned about costs. They do not believe that royals who make no public contribution by way of royal duties should have any public money either directly or indirectly (ie protection officers). At present I think the public believe they are funding, in some way, these 2 girls hence the negative comments which appear.

I think Charles would risk looking rather mean/petty if he did this (even though the Yorks are not universally popular) which would not help his cause with those who are unsure about his suitability to be monarch.

IT seems unnecessary anyway because the Yorks children will not be HRH's and I dont think titles would be offered either. The Wessex children don't use their HRH's and probably never will.

Setting in place limitations on the "royals" in the future and giving real clarity on expenditure would be a good start for him.
__________________

This precious stone set in the silver sea,......
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England,
Reply With Quote
  #1628  
Old 11-19-2012, 01:30 PM
msleiman's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Greenville, United States
Posts: 442
How does Prince Michael hold the title of prince and HRH? The reason I ask is because his grand father was died at the time of his birth so I thought that the 1917 rules say he could not hold this title.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1629  
Old 11-19-2012, 01:34 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,260
Michael is a male line grandson of a monarch so under the 1917 Letters Patent he is a Prince of the United Kingdom. It is not necessary for the monarch to still be alive for the male line grandchild to be an HRH.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1630  
Old 11-19-2012, 01:36 PM
msleiman's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Greenville, United States
Posts: 442
Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Michael is a male line grandson of a monarch so under the 1917 Letters Patent he is a Prince of the United Kingdom. It is not necessary for the monarch to still be alive for the male line grandchild to be an HRH.
Thank you so much I was thinking that his grandfather had to be alive! Thanks again
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1631  
Old 11-19-2012, 03:47 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,603
In fact of the grandchildren of King George V who hold the HRH only 3 of the 7 were born during his reign - Elizabeth, Margaret and Edward of Kent - the others Alexandra and Michael of Kent, and William and Richard of Gloucester were all born after his death.

Margaret and William are now deceased while Edward and Richard are better known as TRH The Dukes of Gloucester and Kent.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1632  
Old 11-19-2012, 04:09 PM
Molly2101's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: England, United Kingdom
Posts: 2,634
I agree with slimming down the Royal family, and I also agree with changing LP to making the title of British Prince and Princess to a select few. I cannot see Charles changing it so Harry's children would not be HRH, but I could be wrong.

I can't ever see the Wessex children choosing to use their HRH style when they turn 18. They have been raised out of the limelight, and will probably have seen how Peter and Zara's lives are and want to continue in that way. As much as I wish we could call them Princess Louise and Prince James, I understand the reasoning behind their parents' choice.

Regarding the York Princesses losing their title, I only asked because I wondered how it would be accepted in the family if they were "stripped" of their title. If we are to believe the paper's, Andrew was not overly impressed at not being included in the Diamond Jubilee carriage procession or balcony appearance, so I can't imagine he would take too kindly to his daughter's losing their titles...I could be wrong though and have misread Andrew completely.
__________________
"I am yours, you are mine, of that be sure. You are locked in my heart, the little key is lost and now you must stay there forever."
Written by Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine in the diary of her fiance, Tsarevich Nicholas.
Reply With Quote
  #1633  
Old 11-19-2012, 04:29 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,603
I don't think Charles would strip them of the HRH.

The number of HRHs will decrease naturally over time anyway - unless William and Kate have masses of kids and I can't see them doing that these days.

In 30 years assuming William and Harry each of two children there will be the following HRHs in all likelihood:

Andrew, Edward, Beatrice, Eugenie, Harry, and four children plus spouses of males - so 9 (I am assuming that in 30 years time that all those currently 60+ in years will be deceased).

Currently there are 12 born plus spouses (not including Louise and James) which isn't all that many anyway.

Of the 4 children I am giving William and Harry only their sons can currently pass on HRH for one generation (except a first born daughter of William's after the new legislation is passed and the 1917 LPs adjusted as I expect them to be).
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1634  
Old 11-19-2012, 07:31 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
I would definitely agree that it was a measure to distance the British Royal Family from their German relatives. At about the same time as the Letters Patent 1917, Titles Deprivation Act 1917 was passed (unlike the former, it was not an LP but an Act of the Parliament), which ordered those who had born arms against the United Kingdom and/or its allies during World War I to be deprived of their British titles (peerage and royal alike).

At the same time, the Letters Patent of 1917 was one of the first documents which very clearly defined who was entitled to which titles and styles. Just think of it, before the LP, a great-great-great-granddaughter of a Monarch (such as Frederica of Hanover and Brunswick-Luneburg) was entitled to the title of a British Princess.

While I doubt Charles will actually strip his nieces of their royal titles, I think some sort of Letters Patent will be passed though; downsizing the Royal Family is not just a whim of Charles - it is a necessity in our times. Perhaps the changes will not concern living members of the Royal Family but only Charles' own descendants.
George V issued a royal warrant in 1914 granting the style and title of "HH Prince and Princess of Great Britain and Ireland" to Frederica and her siblings as male-line descendants of George III, through their father, The Duke of Brunswick-Luneberg, a son of The Duke of Cumberland. They were not entitled to this style otherwise. This grant by George V was automatically revoked with the issuance of the 1917 Letters Patent.

I think it's highly likely Beatrice and Eugenie will, in fact, lose their right to be HRH Princess of the UK. Their cousins, Louise and James of Wessex, are not using their royal rank and it would be consistent with a "downsized" royal family. I also think Harry's children will not become HRH.

It makes sense Charles will issue new Letters Patent limiting the HRH to the children of The Sovereign, the children of the heir to the throne and the eldest child of the eldest child of the heir.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1635  
Old 11-19-2012, 08:20 PM
padams2359's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: New Orleans, United States
Posts: 388
I don't think KC3 will change any of the existing titles as far as the Yorks go. Correct me if I am wrong, but the children of PE & PB will not be HRH because they will not be the male line grandchildren of a Monarch? I think KG5 thought this threw and planned that the titles will just fall off as time goes by, and the subsequent generations will just move into the peerage. The only issue is the male line children of Prince Edward, and he has taken care of that voluntarily. I don't think there will be this big shake up that people are anticipating.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1636  
Old 11-19-2012, 08:26 PM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by padams2359 View Post
I don't think KC3 will change any of the existing titles as far as the Yorks go. Correct me if I am wrong, but the children of PE & PB will not be HRH because they will not be the male line grandchildren of a Monarch?
Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie's children will be just female-line great-grandchildren of the Monarch and thus would not not be entitled to any styles or titles unless they inherit them from their fathers (that is to say, if either or both girls marry noblemen/royals). Their children .

I'm not sure whether the York sisters will actually be deprived of their titles (any potential changes could be implemented for future generations only), but like branchg, I'm fairly certain that in times to come the style of Royal Highness and title of a British Prince/Princess will be limited to the children of the Sovereign and children of the Heir Apparent.
Reply With Quote
  #1637  
Old 11-19-2012, 09:38 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,736
I can foresee Richard, Edward and Alexandra all remaining HRH for life, as well as the royal duchesses Katharine and Brigitte (Katharine already has dropped HRH informally), and Princess Michael. Of course, so would Anne, Edward and Andrew.

Beatrice and Eugenie should not be allowed to remain HRH when Louise and James are not using it. That makes no sense to me. William's eldest child would become The Sovereign and pass on royal rank, but Harry's children should not hold royal rank unless they are next in-line (i.e. William does not have issue).
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1638  
Old 11-19-2012, 11:38 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,603
I see no reason to deprive Beatrice and Eugenie of the HRH just because Edward and Sophie decided that their children wouldn't use it - different times and circumstances led to different situations.

I think Charles will deprive them simply because he doesn't like Andrew all that much and apparently has little time for the girls or Sarah - if various reports are to believed he called them 'twits' or something else equally unsavoury (twits in case you don't know is a colloquial term meaning 'idiot' - hardly flattering).

I also wouldn't be surprised to see the girls voluntarily give up the HRH on their wedding days and move right away from the royal circus - see them making their own lives and only attend the really big royal events e.g. Coronations and funerals.

I do the future of the BRF centring on Charles, William and Harry and the rest will simply slip by the wayside. Enjoy seeing the extended family during the rest of the Queen's reign as I suspect that the next reign will see the drop off of the cousins and neices and nephews (not his siblings) and then William will extend that so that Harry's children aren't appearing either.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1639  
Old 11-20-2012, 12:13 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,736
Well, I believe Beatrice and Eugenie have already been told to get jobs and will eventually lose their royal protection officers, so that doesn't indicate a future as Royal Highnesses. The fact is they are minor members of the royal family and will certainly continue to move down the list once William and Catherine start having children.

I believe Charles has made it quite clear he thinks both of his brothers are useless, but who knows if he extends that dislike to their children.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1640  
Old 11-20-2012, 07:27 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,603
Beatrice already has a job and they lost their security over a year ago.

They won't be working royals but that won't stop them being HRHs.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
british royal family, consort, spouse, styles and titles


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Questions About [non-British] Styles and Titles Lord Sosnowitz Royal Ceremony and Protocol 729 10-09-2014 04:24 PM
Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children Aussie Princess Prince Harry and Prince William 1110 07-12-2014 10:00 PM
Diana's Styles and Titles florawindsor Diana, Princess of Wales (1961-1997) 573 11-14-2013 11:59 AM
Styles and Titles Nahla10 Ruling Family of Dubai 36 08-08-2013 12:05 PM
Abdication Beatrix and Inauguration WA: Titles, Names, Succession, Precedence Princess Robijn Abdication & Inauguration 2013 67 05-24-2013 03:14 PM




Popular Tags
birth brussels carl philip charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events duchess of cambridge dutch royal history fashion grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta sofia jordan king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg nobility official visit olympics ottoman pom pregnancy president hollande president komorowski prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince floris prince maurits prince pieter-christiaan princess aimee princess anita princess astrid princess beatrix princess charlene princess laurentien princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess marilene princess mary queen anne-marie queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen silvia royal royal fashion russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit sweden the hague visit wedding winter olympics 2014



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:14 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]