Questions about British Styles and Titles

[branchg]

Originally Posted by DCVO

So, I know that currently Edward's kids are referred to with the styles of the children of an Earl. But when, upon Prince Philip's death, he becomes the new Duke of Edinburgh, will James and Louise be promoted as well? I suppose it makes no difference in Lady Louise's title, but will James become Earl of Wessex?

When Philip dies, his peerages will pass to Charles as his eldest son, or his grandson, William, if Charles did not survive his father. Charles and/or William would become the 2nd Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth and Baron Greenwich in addition their own titles.

Since Charles or William will become King upon the death of The Queen, all of their Peerages would merge with the Crown. If Philip dies after The Queen, his titles would immediately merge with the Crown as his male heir would be The Sovereign. In either scenario, a new creation of the Dukedom of Edinburgh would then be granted to Prince Edward.

James would use the courtesy title of Earl of Wessex once his father is created Duke of Edinburgh as his male heir, rather than Viscount Severn.

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by DCVO

So, I know that currently Edward's kids are referred to with the styles of the children of an Earl. But when, upon Prince Philip's death, he becomes the new Duke of Edinburgh, will James and Louise be promoted as well? I suppose it makes no difference in Lady Louise's title, but will James become Earl of Wessex?

If you mean will they then start using HRH Prince/Princess - probably not as they are being raised without those styles and I doubt that they will ever use them.

If you mean will their current styles change - then yes.

It will depend on how Edward (if he gets it) becomes Duke of Edinburgh. If, as expected, it is recreated for him after the death of both of his parents and thus has merged with the Crown then James would become the Earl of Wessex as that title would be lower than the title of Duke and would be Edward senior subsidiary title. If Edward somehow inherited all of Philip's titles (unlikely I know) then James would use Earl of Merioneth as it was created earlier than Wessex.

Without spelling out the myriad of scenarios again may I refer you to my posts from 2009 on this topic.

The future of the Duke of Edinburgh title

[HRHThePrince]

I read somewhere years ago that Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone, a granddaughter of Queen Victoria was pretty upset that Elizabeth II allowed her uncle's widow, Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester to be titled "Princess Alice" feeling that if she didn't wanna be known as The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester, her style & title should have reverted to
HRH Princess Henry, Duchess of Gloucester as a Princess-by-Marriage. I guess the name familiarity was what ticked her off.

[Iluvbertie]

To a certain extent because she was born a Princess and The Duchess of Gloucester wasn't.

It is never done to refer to a wife as HRH The Princess male name, The Duchess of xxxx e.g. HRH The Princess Richard, The Duchess of Gloucester isn't the correct form and HRH The Princess Henry, The Duchess of Gloucester was never the late Princess Alice's style - when she married she lost any name officially at all but simply became HRH The Duchess of Gloucester. To revert to HRH The Princess Henry would be to deny the fact that she had married a peer of the realm and indicate that she had married an untitled son. On her becoming a widow the options were to insist on HRH The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester or allow her the special style of HRH Princess Alice.

[branchg]

Alice was automatically The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester with her husband's death since her daughter-in-law, Brigitte, became the new Duchess of Gloucester. To style her "HRH The Princess Henry, Duchess of Gloucester" was technically correct, but The Queen chose to grant her aunt the courtesy of being known as Princess Alice as she was the mother of a male-line grandson of George V.

Princess Alice, Countess of Althone was much lower down the list of precedence than the dowager duchess was at the time of her husband's death.

[Iluvbertie]

Technically the wife of a peer has no name, nor does the peer - to call Henry HRH The Prince Henry, The Duke of Gloucester is wrong - one or the other but not both. The only exception is The Duke of Rothesay title in Scotland - which is HRH The Prince xxxx, The Duke of Rothesay but for all other peers they don't have both a name and a title - one or the other is the official reference so either HRH The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester or HRH The Princess Henry but not together.

[branchg]

Yes, but that's because their style as Prince/Princess takes precedence after their status as Peers. Their title reflects their Peerage, but with royal rank as HRH. And many Peers do have names, including surnames, but they traditionally are referred to by their titles.

[ladongas]

In a recently shown (US) episode of this show, the character of "Chummy's" mother appeared. The sister called her "Lady Stafford Chomondely Brown" and was permitted to call her merely "Lady Brown".

What does the title of Lady indicate in her case? Could she be the wife of a KBE?

Thank you. The spelling of Chomondely is a guess.

[Iluvbertie]

Lady could be the either the daughter of a peer, the wife of a peer or the wife of a knight. e.g. The wife of a peer, other than a duchess, is often called 'lady' rather than say 'countess' although officially it would be Countess.

When in written form it would be the more formal Countess but to her face 'my lady' or 'Lady xxx'

[HereditaryPrincess]

Originally Posted by samitude

Prince Andrew received the title Duke of York upon his wedding day I believe. I don't think he's had this title since he was a baby.

Also, Viscount Linley's daughter is referred to as the Honorable Margarita Armstrong-Jones. Her brother Patrick is the Honorable Charles Armstrong-Jones and will become Viscount Linley when his father gains the title Earl of Snowdon which will be upon the present Earl of Snowdon's death. At least that's the way I understand this.

I believe Sophie didn't want the title of princess. She would have received it by marrying Edward, but asked not to.

Margarita will become The Lady Margarita Armstrong- Jones when her father becomes the Earl of Snowdon and her brother becomes the Viscount Linley. Also, Patrick isn't her brother's first name, but his middle name. His full name is Charles Patrick Inigo Armstrong- Jones.

Also, I'm a little bit confused as to what Leopold and Albert Windsor's (sons of Lord and Lady Nicholas Windsor), official titles are; on some websites I've heard them been reffered to as The Honourable, whereas on others, I've heard them been called Esquires (with the abbreviation of Esq.) What are the correct titles?

[Archduchess Zelia]

Originally Posted by HereditaryPrincess

Margarita will become The Lady Margarita Armstrong- Jones when her father becomes the Earl of Snowdon and her brother becomes the Viscount Linley. Also, Patrick isn't her brother's first name, but his middle name. His full name is Charles Patrick Inigo Armstrong- Jones.

Also, I'm a little bit confused as to what Leopold and Albert Windsor's (sons of Lord and Lady Nicholas Windsor), official titles are; on some websites I've heard them been reffered to as The Honourable, whereas on others, I've heard them been called Esquires (with the abbreviation of Esq.) What are the correct titles?

I believe that Charles Armstrong-Jones is called Patrick by the family to avoid any confusion between him and the Prince of Wales.

Leopold and Albert Windsor also confuse me, I've always thought that children of mere Lords and Ladies weren't having any official titles at all (kind of like Lady Sarah Chatto's sons), but I guess an exception was made here, or?

[Lumutqueen]

Don't think you can really confuse The Prince of Wales with a child. A name is a name. I never get why people name them one thing, and then call them by another.

[ladongas]

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

Lady could be the either the daughter of a peer, the wife of a peer or the wife of a knight. e.g. The wife of a peer, other than a duchess, is often called 'lady' rather than say 'countess' although officially it would be Countess.

When in written form it would be the more formal Countess but to her face 'my lady' or 'Lady xxx'

Thanks, but...If she were the daughter of a peer, wouldn't she be Lady Gaga, rather than Lady Finger (assuming she was named
Gaga Finger)? Would Sophie ever be called Lady Wessex? I just couldn't figure what peer would have a last name like Stafford Chomondely Brown. And if her husband was 'only' a KBE, would she have been so snobbish (if you didn't see it, she was very grand)?

[MichelleQ2]

Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia

I believe that Charles Armstrong-Jones is called Patrick by the family to avoid any confusion between him and the Prince of Wales.

On one of the documentaries on the queens life, they show the family in the room off the balcony before a balcony appearance after trooping the colour. Viscount Linley is calling to his son,Charles in the scenes where he was running about and he was trying to get his attention. He definitely was calling him Charles. It was a few years back.

[yvr girl]

Originally Posted by ladongas

Thanks, but...If she were the daughter of a peer, wouldn't she be Lady Gaga, rather than Lady Finger (assuming she was named
Gaga Finger)? Would Sophie ever be called Lady Wessex? I just couldn't figure what peer would have a last name like Stafford Chomondely Brown. And if her husband was 'only' a KBE, would she have been so snobbish (if you didn't see it, she was very grand)?

Daughter - Lady Diana
Wife - Lady Spencer (Spencer the title not Spencer the surname)

[ladongas]

Originally Posted by yvr girl

Daughter - Lady Diana
Wife - Lady Spencer (Spencer the title not Spencer the surname)

Thank you! Now I will sleep tonight.

[Molly2101]

Originally Posted by MichelleQ2

On one of the documentaries on the queens life, they show the family in the room off the balcony before a balcony appearance after trooping the colour. Viscount Linley is calling to his son,Charles in the scenes where he was running about and he was trying to get his attention. He definitely was calling him Charles. It was a few years back.

I remember that too, it was from Monarchy At Work. David definitely called him Charles, not Patrick. Just noticed Charles' full name has Inigo, does anyone know where that comes from?

Is it possible that once Charles becomes King, and writes new Letters Patent, he could strip Beatrice and Eugenie of their Princess style, and have them styled as Lady?

[cepe]

Inigo Jones was an English Architect - considered the first, and one of the best. 16th/17th century. Here's a link to the wiki page

Inigo Jones - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by Molly2101

Is it possible that once Charles becomes King, and writes new Letters Patent, he could strip Beatrice and Eugenie of their Princess style, and have them styled as Lady?

Yes, it is possible.

The title of a British Prince or Princess is entirely at the will of the Sovereign and can be granted or revoked at any time. If Charles decides to downsize the Royal Family, he can issue new Letters Patent whereby Beatrice and Eugenie will be styled and titled as children of a Duke - that is to say, Lady Beatrice and Lady Eugenie.

In all probability, the changes would not be directed against the York Princesses personally but will concern the entire Royal Family. For instance, Charles could issue Letters Patent limiting the style of Royal Highness and title of a Prince/Princess to the children of the Monarch and children of the Heir Apparent to the Throne (in his own reign, that would mean William, Harry, and William's - but not Harry's - children).

That has happened before: when George V issued his Letters Patent of 1917 specifying who was entitled to the title of British Princes and Princesses (children, male-line grandchildren of the Monarch, and the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales), several royals who had been British Princes and Princesses were ones no more.

Those royals were:
- John Leopold, Hereditary Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (great-grandson of Queen Victoria)
- Prince Hubertus of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (great-grandson of Queen Victoria)
- Prince Alastair, 2nd Duke of Connaught and Strathearn (great-grandson of Queen Victoria)
- Prince Ernest Augustus IV, Prince of Hanover (great-great-great-grandson of George III)
- Prince George William of Hanover (great-great-great-grandson of George III)

- Princess Sibylla of Saxe-Coburg und Gotha (great-granddaughter of Queen Victoria)
- Princess Caroline Mathilde of Saxe-Coburg und Gotha (great-granddaughter of Queen Victoria)
- Princess Frederica of Hanover (great-granddaughter of George III)
- Princess Marie Louise of Hanover and Cumberland (great-great-granddaughter of George III)
- Princess Alexandra of Hanover and Cumberland (great-great-granddaughter of George III)
- Princess Olga of Hanover and Cumberland (great-great-granddaughter of George III)
- Princess Fredrica of Hanover and Brunswick-Luneburg (great-great-great-granddaughter of George III)

[cepe]

Artemesia - that is very interesting - I had no idea. But do you think that it was more about distancing the BRF from the germanic background rather than merely reducing those holding titles?

IMO, I don't think Charles would take away the titles from the Yorks. IT could cause a major rift in the family.