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  #1601  
Old 11-08-2012, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
It is interesting to note that the LPs confirming the loss of the HRH was only issued AFTER Diana's divorce.
Well, it makes sense when you consider that Diana was still resisting accepting the final settlement terms, which I believe were presented to her in July 1996, due to the fact she was uncertain if The Queen would allow her to remain HRH.

Once it was confirmed The Queen had declined to revisit the issue of retaining HRH, Diana then formally accepted the settlement and her decree nisi was issued shortly thereafter in August. I believe the Letters Patent confirming divorcees of Princes would not be allowed to remain HRH followed a week later.
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  #1602  
Old 11-08-2012, 05:54 PM
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I heard that when Prince Michael of Kent and becomes the Duke of Kent after Prince Edward, he will not hold the title of 'Prince' and the style of 'HRH' (even though he already is one) and will just be known as His Grace The Duke of Kent. Same goes for the Earl of St Andrews, when he becomes the Duke of Gloucester. The Dukedoms apparently are only going to be considered as 'non- royal' dukedoms after the 3rd generation...
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  #1603  
Old 11-08-2012, 06:21 PM
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First off - Prince Micheal isn't the heir to the Dukedom of Kent (ceased to be that when the Earl of St Andrews was born). He is currently behind the Earl of St Andrews, Baron Downpatrick, Lord Nicholas Windsor, Albert Windsor and Leopold Windsor in line for that title - the sons and grandsons of the present duke. Michael is the younger brother of the Duke and although born 2nd in line to the dukedom has moved down that list as his brother became a father and then a grandfather.

The Duke of Gloucester's heir in the Earl of Ulster.

You are correct that when the present holders of the Dukedoms of Gloucester and Kent pass away that the next in line for those titles won't be HRH Prince but that is because under the 1917 LPs as male line great-grandchildren of the monarch they aren't entitled to be HRH.

The same thing will happen with Harry's descendents in time - as it will with Edward's son James (technically a prince now but now using that styling. James' children will never be entitled to HRH Prince but he is the heir apparent to Edwards' Wessex title and, if things go according to the plans stated in 1999, eventually James will inherit from his father the Edinburgh title but when it moves beyond James it will be held by a non-HRH and thus be a normal non-royal dukedom.

The same with Harry's eventual title - if he has sons - they will become HRH Prince xxxx when Charles becomes King but their children won't be HRHs at all (unless something happens and William has no children and so Harry becomes King and that only delays it by one generation). Even children from William's second son should he have one will be non-royal in two generations.

The title that will be interesting is the Cambridge one itself possibly - if William has a girl and the a boy and dies before becoming King then the boy will inherit Cambridge and the girl the throne (under the planned changes) and that would see another dukedom traditionally associated with royalty move out of the royal sphere.
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  #1604  
Old 11-08-2012, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by HereditaryPrincess View Post
I heard that when Prince Michael of Kent and becomes the Duke of Kent after Prince Edward, he will not hold the title of 'Prince' and the style of 'HRH' (even though he already is one) and will just be known as His Grace The Duke of Kent. Same goes for the Earl of St Andrews, when he becomes the Duke of Gloucester. The Dukedoms apparently are only going to be considered as 'non- royal' dukedoms after the 3rd generation...
Under the 20 November 1917, Letters Patent of King George V, the titular dignity of Prince or Princess and the style Royal Highness are restricted to the legitimate children of a Sovereign, the children of a Sovereign's sons, and the eldest living son of the eldest son of a Prince of Wales. For example, when the current Duke of Gloucester and Duke of Kent are succeeded by their eldest sons, the Earl of Ulster and the Earl of St. Andrews, respectively, those peerages (or rather, the 1928 and 1934 creations of them) will cease to be royal dukedoms, instead the title holders will become ordinary Dukes. The third dukes of Gloucester and Kent will each be styled "His Grace" because as great-grandsons of George V, they are not Princes and are not styled HRH.
Royal dukedoms in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  #1605  
Old 11-08-2012, 06:32 PM
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That article was very interesting. Thank you.
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  #1606  
Old 11-08-2012, 06:55 PM
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Those currently entitled to HRH Prince/Princess under the 1917 LPs:

Charles, Andrew, Edward, Anne - the children of a sovereign
William, Harry, Beatrice, Eugenie, Louise, James, Richard, Edward, Michael, Alexandra - the male-line grandchildren of a soverieign.
Camilla, Sophie, Kate, Birgitte, Katherine and Marie-Christine - the spouses of male HRHs.

William's eldest son will automatically be born an HRH but under the current LPs any other children will be born as Lord/Lady xxxx Mountbatten-Windsor (although the Queen may issue new LPs herself to allow for the eldest child rather than just the eldest son to be born HRH - in keeping with the proposal for the eldest child to be the future monarch). When the Queen dies all of William and Harry's children will become HRHs but until then as things currently stand only William's eldest son and none of Harry's children will be born with the HRH.

Only William and Harry currently can pass on HRH at some point in the future.
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  #1607  
Old 11-08-2012, 07:01 PM
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Iluvbertie - the last 5 or so posts of yours that I have read have been solid gold. They are lucid, easy to follow and we should all bookmark them or maybe adopt them as tattoos so that we can refer back to them. Thanks for all your knowledge.
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  #1608  
Old 11-08-2012, 09:20 PM
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So, I know that currently Edward's kids are referred to with the styles of the children of an Earl. But when, upon Prince Philip's death, he becomes the new Duke of Edinburgh, will James and Louise be promoted as well? I suppose it makes no difference in Lady Louise's title, but will James become Earl of Wessex?
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  #1609  
Old 11-08-2012, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by DCVO
So, I know that currently Edward's kids are referred to with the styles of the children of an Earl. But when, upon Prince Philip's death, he becomes the new Duke of Edinburgh, will James and Louise be promoted as well? I suppose it makes no difference in Lady Louise's title, but will James become Earl of Wessex?
When Philip dies, his peerages will pass to Charles as his eldest son, or his grandson, William, if Charles did not survive his father. Charles and/or William would become the 2nd Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth and Baron Greenwich in addition their own titles.

Since Charles or William will become King upon the death of The Queen, all of their Peerages would merge with the Crown. If Philip dies after The Queen, his titles would immediately merge with the Crown as his male heir would be The Sovereign. In either scenario, a new creation of the Dukedom of Edinburgh would then be granted to Prince Edward.

James would use the courtesy title of Earl of Wessex once his father is created Duke of Edinburgh as his male heir, rather than Viscount Severn.
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  #1610  
Old 11-08-2012, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCVO View Post
So, I know that currently Edward's kids are referred to with the styles of the children of an Earl. But when, upon Prince Philip's death, he becomes the new Duke of Edinburgh, will James and Louise be promoted as well? I suppose it makes no difference in Lady Louise's title, but will James become Earl of Wessex?

If you mean will they then start using HRH Prince/Princess - probably not as they are being raised without those styles and I doubt that they will ever use them.

If you mean will their current styles change - then yes.

It will depend on how Edward (if he gets it) becomes Duke of Edinburgh. If, as expected, it is recreated for him after the death of both of his parents and thus has merged with the Crown then James would become the Earl of Wessex as that title would be lower than the title of Duke and would be Edward senior subsidiary title. If Edward somehow inherited all of Philip's titles (unlikely I know) then James would use Earl of Merioneth as it was created earlier than Wessex.

Without spelling out the myriad of scenarios again may I refer you to my posts from 2009 on this topic.

The future of the Duke of Edinburgh title
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  #1611  
Old 11-09-2012, 10:40 PM
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I read somewhere years ago that Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone, a granddaughter of Queen Victoria was pretty upset that Elizabeth II allowed her uncle's widow, Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester to be titled "Princess Alice" feeling that if she didn't wanna be known as The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester, her style & title should have reverted to
HRH Princess Henry, Duchess of Gloucester as a Princess-by-Marriage. I guess the name familiarity was what ticked her off.
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  #1612  
Old 11-10-2012, 03:05 AM
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To a certain extent because she was born a Princess and The Duchess of Gloucester wasn't.

It is never done to refer to a wife as HRH The Princess male name, The Duchess of xxxx e.g. HRH The Princess Richard, The Duchess of Gloucester isn't the correct form and HRH The Princess Henry, The Duchess of Gloucester was never the late Princess Alice's style - when she married she lost any name officially at all but simply became HRH The Duchess of Gloucester. To revert to HRH The Princess Henry would be to deny the fact that she had married a peer of the realm and indicate that she had married an untitled son. On her becoming a widow the options were to insist on HRH The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester or allow her the special style of HRH Princess Alice.
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  #1613  
Old 11-11-2012, 11:29 AM
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Alice was automatically The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester with her husband's death since her daughter-in-law, Brigitte, became the new Duchess of Gloucester. To style her "HRH The Princess Henry, Duchess of Gloucester" was technically correct, but The Queen chose to grant her aunt the courtesy of being known as Princess Alice as she was the mother of a male-line grandson of George V.

Princess Alice, Countess of Althone was much lower down the list of precedence than the dowager duchess was at the time of her husband's death.
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  #1614  
Old 11-11-2012, 03:14 PM
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Technically the wife of a peer has no name, nor does the peer - to call Henry HRH The Prince Henry, The Duke of Gloucester is wrong - one or the other but not both. The only exception is The Duke of Rothesay title in Scotland - which is HRH The Prince xxxx, The Duke of Rothesay but for all other peers they don't have both a name and a title - one or the other is the official reference so either HRH The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester or HRH The Princess Henry but not together.
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  #1615  
Old 11-11-2012, 07:10 PM
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Yes, but that's because their style as Prince/Princess takes precedence after their status as Peers. Their title reflects their Peerage, but with royal rank as HRH. And many Peers do have names, including surnames, but they traditionally are referred to by their titles.
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  #1616  
Old 11-16-2012, 02:15 PM
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Call the Midwife

In a recently shown (US) episode of this show, the character of "Chummy's" mother appeared. The sister called her "Lady Stafford Chomondely Brown" and was permitted to call her merely "Lady Brown".

What does the title of Lady indicate in her case? Could she be the wife of a KBE?

Thank you. The spelling of Chomondely is a guess.
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  #1617  
Old 11-16-2012, 03:39 PM
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Lady could be the either the daughter of a peer, the wife of a peer or the wife of a knight. e.g. The wife of a peer, other than a duchess, is often called 'lady' rather than say 'countess' although officially it would be Countess.

When in written form it would be the more formal Countess but to her face 'my lady' or 'Lady xxx'
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  #1618  
Old 11-16-2012, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by samitude View Post
Prince Andrew received the title Duke of York upon his wedding day I believe. I don't think he's had this title since he was a baby.

Also, Viscount Linley's daughter is referred to as the Honorable Margarita Armstrong-Jones. Her brother Patrick is the Honorable Charles Armstrong-Jones and will become Viscount Linley when his father gains the title Earl of Snowdon which will be upon the present Earl of Snowdon's death. At least that's the way I understand this.

I believe Sophie didn't want the title of princess. She would have received it by marrying Edward, but asked not to.
Margarita will become The Lady Margarita Armstrong- Jones when her father becomes the Earl of Snowdon and her brother becomes the Viscount Linley. Also, Patrick isn't her brother's first name, but his middle name. His full name is Charles Patrick Inigo Armstrong- Jones.

Also, I'm a little bit confused as to what Leopold and Albert Windsor's (sons of Lord and Lady Nicholas Windsor), official titles are; on some websites I've heard them been reffered to as The Honourable, whereas on others, I've heard them been called Esquires (with the abbreviation of Esq.) What are the correct titles?
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  #1619  
Old 11-16-2012, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by HereditaryPrincess View Post
Margarita will become The Lady Margarita Armstrong- Jones when her father becomes the Earl of Snowdon and her brother becomes the Viscount Linley. Also, Patrick isn't her brother's first name, but his middle name. His full name is Charles Patrick Inigo Armstrong- Jones.

Also, I'm a little bit confused as to what Leopold and Albert Windsor's (sons of Lord and Lady Nicholas Windsor), official titles are; on some websites I've heard them been reffered to as The Honourable, whereas on others, I've heard them been called Esquires (with the abbreviation of Esq.) What are the correct titles?
I believe that Charles Armstrong-Jones is called Patrick by the family to avoid any confusion between him and the Prince of Wales.

Leopold and Albert Windsor also confuse me, I've always thought that children of mere Lords and Ladies weren't having any official titles at all (kind of like Lady Sarah Chatto's sons), but I guess an exception was made here, or?
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  #1620  
Old 11-16-2012, 05:41 PM
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Don't think you can really confuse The Prince of Wales with a child. A name is a name. I never get why people name them one thing, and then call them by another.
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