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  #1581  
Old 10-27-2012, 10:48 AM
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The Queen Mother most definitely did not curtsey to her daughter. Queen Mary was a strict traditionalist from the old school, but it was not necessary for her to curtsey as she was a queen in her own right.
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  #1582  
Old 10-27-2012, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
The Queen Mother most definitely did not curtsey to her daughter. Queen Mary was a strict traditionalist from the old school, but it was not necessary for her to curtsey as she was a queen in her own right.
I think that's not entirely accurate, branchg. While the Queen Mother didn't curtsey to Queen Elizabeth on most occasions, she did make an exception for state events. For instance, if my memory serves me right, the Queen Mother curtseyed to the newly crowned Queen Elizabeth during the latter's Coronation ceremony.
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  #1583  
Old 10-28-2012, 04:06 AM
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In english speaking countries are two words for "Graf", "Count" and "Earl".

When I read some genealogical lists of noble or peer-families and of course the Royal Family there are often the equivalent "Earl" but no "Count". Is the "Count" in Great Britain not existing?

I hope you know what I mean!
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  #1584  
Old 10-28-2012, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by principessa View Post
Is the "Count" in Great Britain not existing?

I hope you know what I mean!
The British and Irish equivalent for Count is an Earl. Such as The Earl of Wessex.
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  #1585  
Old 10-28-2012, 06:12 AM
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The British and Irish equivalent for Count is an Earl. Such as The Earl of Wessex.
And the differnce to nobles families in Germany, Belgium etc. is that there is only on Earl, namely the head of the Family and not more of them.
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  #1586  
Old 11-03-2012, 07:24 PM
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The POW new web site is up, and I found it interesting to read his "Titles and Heraldry" page. It is one of those pages that is interesting as much for what it DOES NOT MENTION as for what it does note. Read it at:
Titles and Heraldry

Basicly, he speaks to his titles in Britain, Wales and Scotland but leaves out all the orders, etc. Camilla's like page does mention her GDRVO. The POW site does explore the the Welsh feathers on its own page - so that gets some notice.

Styles and titles are noted in Williams' bio and on a "Titles and Heraldry" page.

So, to me, the new site seems to spend little time (bytes) on the royalty/honours part of Charles' life and a great deal more time on his life as a farmer, artist, champion of organic food, diversity, good architecture, etc. Given how he has lived his life - I found it fitting. But I wonder what it bodes for his reign. Interesting...
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  #1587  
Old 11-08-2012, 11:12 AM
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Forgive me if this is a repeat....I scanned a lot of the pages to see if this was asked but didn't closely read all 78 pages :)

Why was Diana stripped of HRH title but Sarah Ferguson got to keep her Duchess of York title? Also, why was Diana titled Princess Diana but Catherine is Princess William.?

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  #1588  
Old 11-08-2012, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Rocketmom View Post
Forgive me if this is a repeat....I scanned a lot of the pages to see if this was asked but didn't closely read all 78 pages :)

Why was Diana stripped of HRH title but Sarah Ferguson got to keep her Duchess of York title? Also, why was Diana titled Princess Diana but Catherine is Princess William.?

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Sarah did not keep the Title Duchess of Yorjk but her anem has become Sarah, Duchess of York after the divorce. And for Diana it was Diana, Pricness of Wales. It is the same for the divorced wives of other peers. And Diana's title during the marriage was officially The Princess of Wales never Princess Diana.
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  #1589  
Old 11-08-2012, 11:52 AM
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The style and rank of Royal Highness arrived with their marriage and departed with divorce as they were no longer wives of sons of The Sovereign. Like all former wives of Peers, their titles became a style, similar to a surname, and they lost all rank and precedence because they were no longer "The" Duchess of York or "The" Princess of Wales.

In Diana's case, The Queen made special allowance for her position as the mother of a future King in an announcement from the Palace, stating Diana remained a member of the royal family and would be accorded her former precedence on all state and national occasions. In other words, she was no longer a Royal Highness, but would continue to be treated as such on certain occasions as the mother of Prince William.
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  #1590  
Old 11-08-2012, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocketmom View Post
Forgive me if this is a repeat....I scanned a lot of the pages to see if this was asked but didn't closely read all 78 pages :)

Why was Diana stripped of HRH title but Sarah Ferguson got to keep her Duchess of York title? Also, why was Diana titled Princess Diana but Catherine is Princess William.?

Thanks
Diana was stripped of her HRH because she was no longer married to one. .
Sarah did not keep her title as The Duchess of York, she holds the style of a divorced wife of a peer, Sarah, Duchess of York.

Diana wasn't titled Princess Diana, she was given that title by the press and the public, some say after the whole People's Princess speech. Diana was until the day she divorced The Princess Charles, or commonly known as The Princess of Wales. Catherine will hold that title when her husband is coronated as Prince of Wales.
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  #1591  
Old 11-08-2012, 12:38 PM
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Diana was never "Princess Diana" but was informally referred to as such, even though it was always incorrect. But the Palace and Household often used that style as well in referring to her, so it's probably safe to say it was tolerated since she was the mother of a future King.

Diana also remained a princess in style after the divorce, although downgraded by the loss of HRH. She wasn't "stripped" of her royal rank as a vindictive move....it arrived with marriage and departed with divorce, as confirmed by the issuance of Letters Patent in August 1996 stating a former wife of a son or male-line grandson of The Sovereign would not be entitled to hold the style of HRH upon divorce.

Diana and Sarah were the first women to divorce a Prince of the UK so it was logical that Letters Patent were issued to clarify how this new development would be addressed.
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  #1592  
Old 11-08-2012, 05:03 PM
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It is interesting to note that the LPs confirming the loss of the HRH was only issued AFTER Diana's divorce.

Sarah actually remained HRH from her divorce until the August LPs that year.

Both ladies became Princesses of the UK and HRHs when they married - just as Kate, Camilla, Sophie, Birgitte, Katherine and Marie-Christine have done. However as their husbands had other titles they used those titles rather than the lower Princess style - like Camilla (The Duchess of Corwall even though she is also The Princess of Wales), Sophie (The Countess of Wessex), Birgitte (The Duchess of Gloucester), Katherine (The Duchess of Kent) and Kate (The Duchess of Cambridge) while Marie-Christine is called Princess Michael because her husband is still a commoner and has no peerage title to raise his wife to a higher status than that of a simple princess. Birgitte, when she married was also known as Princess Richard but rose to the wife of a peer when her husband also became a peer on the death of his father.

Diana was never Princess Diana officially and the first to correct people was Diana herself - never to an ordinary member of the public but to those who should have known better. She went from Lady Diana Spencer to HRH The Princess of Wales to Diana, Princess of Wales while Sarah went from Sarah Ferguson to HRH The Duchess of York to Sarah, Duchess of York.

Another example of what has happened is Earl Spencer's myriad of wives who each, while married to him, were 'The Countess Spencer' but after their divorces were known as xxxxx, Countess Spencer.

This is just the standard form of a divorced wife of a peer - to take the former peerage title and use is after their first name while the wife of a peer has on first name in official documents etc e.g. in the CC Camilla is always called HRH The Duchess of Cornwall and Kate as HRH The Duchess of Cambridge. Even the men have no first names officially when they have a title e.g. William is officially HRH The Duke of Cambridge while Harry is still only HRH Prince Henry of Wales (and a commoner).
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  #1593  
Old 11-08-2012, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
It is interesting to note that the LPs confirming the loss of the HRH was only issued AFTER Diana's divorce.
Well, it makes sense when you consider that Diana was still resisting accepting the final settlement terms, which I believe were presented to her in July 1996, due to the fact she was uncertain if The Queen would allow her to remain HRH.

Once it was confirmed The Queen had declined to revisit the issue of retaining HRH, Diana then formally accepted the settlement and her decree nisi was issued shortly thereafter in August. I believe the Letters Patent confirming divorcees of Princes would not be allowed to remain HRH followed a week later.
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  #1594  
Old 11-08-2012, 05:54 PM
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I heard that when Prince Michael of Kent and becomes the Duke of Kent after Prince Edward, he will not hold the title of 'Prince' and the style of 'HRH' (even though he already is one) and will just be known as His Grace The Duke of Kent. Same goes for the Earl of St Andrews, when he becomes the Duke of Gloucester. The Dukedoms apparently are only going to be considered as 'non- royal' dukedoms after the 3rd generation...
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  #1595  
Old 11-08-2012, 06:21 PM
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First off - Prince Micheal isn't the heir to the Dukedom of Kent (ceased to be that when the Earl of St Andrews was born). He is currently behind the Earl of St Andrews, Baron Downpatrick, Lord Nicholas Windsor, Albert Windsor and Leopold Windsor in line for that title - the sons and grandsons of the present duke. Michael is the younger brother of the Duke and although born 2nd in line to the dukedom has moved down that list as his brother became a father and then a grandfather.

The Duke of Gloucester's heir in the Earl of Ulster.

You are correct that when the present holders of the Dukedoms of Gloucester and Kent pass away that the next in line for those titles won't be HRH Prince but that is because under the 1917 LPs as male line great-grandchildren of the monarch they aren't entitled to be HRH.

The same thing will happen with Harry's descendents in time - as it will with Edward's son James (technically a prince now but now using that styling. James' children will never be entitled to HRH Prince but he is the heir apparent to Edwards' Wessex title and, if things go according to the plans stated in 1999, eventually James will inherit from his father the Edinburgh title but when it moves beyond James it will be held by a non-HRH and thus be a normal non-royal dukedom.

The same with Harry's eventual title - if he has sons - they will become HRH Prince xxxx when Charles becomes King but their children won't be HRHs at all (unless something happens and William has no children and so Harry becomes King and that only delays it by one generation). Even children from William's second son should he have one will be non-royal in two generations.

The title that will be interesting is the Cambridge one itself possibly - if William has a girl and the a boy and dies before becoming King then the boy will inherit Cambridge and the girl the throne (under the planned changes) and that would see another dukedom traditionally associated with royalty move out of the royal sphere.
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  #1596  
Old 11-08-2012, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by HereditaryPrincess View Post
I heard that when Prince Michael of Kent and becomes the Duke of Kent after Prince Edward, he will not hold the title of 'Prince' and the style of 'HRH' (even though he already is one) and will just be known as His Grace The Duke of Kent. Same goes for the Earl of St Andrews, when he becomes the Duke of Gloucester. The Dukedoms apparently are only going to be considered as 'non- royal' dukedoms after the 3rd generation...
Under the 20 November 1917, Letters Patent of King George V, the titular dignity of Prince or Princess and the style Royal Highness are restricted to the legitimate children of a Sovereign, the children of a Sovereign's sons, and the eldest living son of the eldest son of a Prince of Wales. For example, when the current Duke of Gloucester and Duke of Kent are succeeded by their eldest sons, the Earl of Ulster and the Earl of St. Andrews, respectively, those peerages (or rather, the 1928 and 1934 creations of them) will cease to be royal dukedoms, instead the title holders will become ordinary Dukes. The third dukes of Gloucester and Kent will each be styled "His Grace" because as great-grandsons of George V, they are not Princes and are not styled HRH.
Royal dukedoms in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  #1597  
Old 11-08-2012, 06:32 PM
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That article was very interesting. Thank you.
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  #1598  
Old 11-08-2012, 06:55 PM
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Those currently entitled to HRH Prince/Princess under the 1917 LPs:

Charles, Andrew, Edward, Anne - the children of a sovereign
William, Harry, Beatrice, Eugenie, Louise, James, Richard, Edward, Michael, Alexandra - the male-line grandchildren of a soverieign.
Camilla, Sophie, Kate, Birgitte, Katherine and Marie-Christine - the spouses of male HRHs.

William's eldest son will automatically be born an HRH but under the current LPs any other children will be born as Lord/Lady xxxx Mountbatten-Windsor (although the Queen may issue new LPs herself to allow for the eldest child rather than just the eldest son to be born HRH - in keeping with the proposal for the eldest child to be the future monarch). When the Queen dies all of William and Harry's children will become HRHs but until then as things currently stand only William's eldest son and none of Harry's children will be born with the HRH.

Only William and Harry currently can pass on HRH at some point in the future.
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Old 11-08-2012, 07:01 PM
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Iluvbertie - the last 5 or so posts of yours that I have read have been solid gold. They are lucid, easy to follow and we should all bookmark them or maybe adopt them as tattoos so that we can refer back to them. Thanks for all your knowledge.
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Old 11-08-2012, 09:20 PM
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So, I know that currently Edward's kids are referred to with the styles of the children of an Earl. But when, upon Prince Philip's death, he becomes the new Duke of Edinburgh, will James and Louise be promoted as well? I suppose it makes no difference in Lady Louise's title, but will James become Earl of Wessex?
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