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  #1581  
Old 10-26-2012, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
How do the US recognize foreign titles of American spouses of foreign nobles?
The U.S. does not recognize foreign titles for American citizens under any circumstances as our Constitution forbids any titles of nobility. That doesn't mean an American cannot hold a title in another country, it just isn't recognized legally here on any documents issued by a federal or state authority.
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  #1582  
Old 10-26-2012, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by HRHThePrince View Post
The reason I ask is because up until WWII all foreign titles were recognized; Saxe-Coburg Gothas, Tecks, Battenbergs, & Schleswig-Holstein etc...
Queen Victoria's daughters (except Princess Louise) married German princes and dukes and she often recognized their titles in the UK after marriage as her grandchildren would carry their father's styles and often were British subjects.

George V ended this practice for obvious reasons after World War I as his entire family was German in blood and some of his closest relatives, including the Kaiser, had fought Great Britain in the war.

Given the revolutionary feelings sweeping through Europe that ended all of the major and minor monarchies and kingdoms after the war, he had to protect his throne.
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  #1583  
Old 10-26-2012, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
When HRH princess Katerine of Greece and Denmark married a British commoner and became a British citizen, she was given Letters Patent which allowed her to enjoy the style and ranke of a (British) duke's daughter in Britain, so she became in Britain Lady Katerine Brandram while in the rest of the world she was known as HRH Princess Katerine of Greece and Denmark.
George VI issued a Royal Warrant, not Letters Patent, granting Katherine the style and precedence of the daughter of a Duke. She was then known as Lady Katherine Brandham for the rest of her life as a British subject.
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  #1584  
Old 10-26-2012, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Molly2101 View Post
They do have the Princess style from their husband (Princess Charles, Princess Edward and Princess William) but you are right, they are not a Princess in their own right. Princess Maxima is an exception, but what about Princess Mary, Princess Marie, Princess Claire (Prince Laurent of Belgium's wife) and Princess Mabel (Prince Frisco of the Netherland's wife)? They became "Princess" upon their marriages.

It is just British tradition that the wives of Prince's do not become a Princess, but it is a shame as i'd love to have a Princess Sophie or Princess Catherine, though Catherine will no doubt be referred to as Princess anyway.
I had always thought that Mary was made a princess in her own right but was recently corrected somewhere on this forum. That means Marie is not a princess in her own right either. I believe that in the Dutch royal family only Maxima was created a princess in her own right. All the other ladies that married into the family were not. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Princess Mathilde was not only made a princess in her own right but her father and two uncles were created counts!
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  #1585  
Old 10-27-2012, 05:54 AM
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HM Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother was a widow of King George VI and mother to the current Queen.

I know all Royal Highness's curtsy to anyone with the rank of "His/Her Majesty". My question is did the Queen Mother have to curtsy to her own daughter? And though titled His Royal Highness, as the consort of the reigning monarch did Prince Philip have to curtsy to the Queen Mother?
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  #1586  
Old 10-27-2012, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by HRHThePrince View Post
And though titled His Royal Highness, as the consort of the reigning monarch did Prince Philip have to curtsy to the Queen Mother?
Men don't curtsy - so: no.
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  #1587  
Old 10-27-2012, 07:17 AM
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I mean bow
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  #1588  
Old 10-27-2012, 07:22 AM
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It has regularly been reported that Queen Mary was the first to curtsey to Edward VIII after the death of her husband, George V. She also is reported as saying that 'as her granny and subject' she had to be the first to curtsey to her granddaughter.

Now if Queen Mary curtseyed to her own son and grandson I would imagine that her daughter-in-law would also curtsey to her own daughter.

Philip was regularly seen to give a slight bow to the Queen Mother whenever they met in public - along with kissing her hand, often in the same movement.
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  #1589  
Old 10-27-2012, 10:48 AM
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The Queen Mother most definitely did not curtsey to her daughter. Queen Mary was a strict traditionalist from the old school, but it was not necessary for her to curtsey as she was a queen in her own right.
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  #1590  
Old 10-27-2012, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
The Queen Mother most definitely did not curtsey to her daughter. Queen Mary was a strict traditionalist from the old school, but it was not necessary for her to curtsey as she was a queen in her own right.
I think that's not entirely accurate, branchg. While the Queen Mother didn't curtsey to Queen Elizabeth on most occasions, she did make an exception for state events. For instance, if my memory serves me right, the Queen Mother curtseyed to the newly crowned Queen Elizabeth during the latter's Coronation ceremony.
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  #1591  
Old 10-28-2012, 04:06 AM
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In english speaking countries are two words for "Graf", "Count" and "Earl".

When I read some genealogical lists of noble or peer-families and of course the Royal Family there are often the equivalent "Earl" but no "Count". Is the "Count" in Great Britain not existing?

I hope you know what I mean!
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  #1592  
Old 10-28-2012, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by principessa View Post
Is the "Count" in Great Britain not existing?

I hope you know what I mean!
The British and Irish equivalent for Count is an Earl. Such as The Earl of Wessex.
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  #1593  
Old 10-28-2012, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
The British and Irish equivalent for Count is an Earl. Such as The Earl of Wessex.
And the differnce to nobles families in Germany, Belgium etc. is that there is only on Earl, namely the head of the Family and not more of them.
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  #1594  
Old 11-03-2012, 07:24 PM
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The POW new web site is up, and I found it interesting to read his "Titles and Heraldry" page. It is one of those pages that is interesting as much for what it DOES NOT MENTION as for what it does note. Read it at:
Titles and Heraldry

Basicly, he speaks to his titles in Britain, Wales and Scotland but leaves out all the orders, etc. Camilla's like page does mention her GDRVO. The POW site does explore the the Welsh feathers on its own page - so that gets some notice.

Styles and titles are noted in Williams' bio and on a "Titles and Heraldry" page.

So, to me, the new site seems to spend little time (bytes) on the royalty/honours part of Charles' life and a great deal more time on his life as a farmer, artist, champion of organic food, diversity, good architecture, etc. Given how he has lived his life - I found it fitting. But I wonder what it bodes for his reign. Interesting...
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  #1595  
Old 11-08-2012, 12:12 PM
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Forgive me if this is a repeat....I scanned a lot of the pages to see if this was asked but didn't closely read all 78 pages :)

Why was Diana stripped of HRH title but Sarah Ferguson got to keep her Duchess of York title? Also, why was Diana titled Princess Diana but Catherine is Princess William.?

Thanks
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  #1596  
Old 11-08-2012, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Rocketmom View Post
Forgive me if this is a repeat....I scanned a lot of the pages to see if this was asked but didn't closely read all 78 pages :)

Why was Diana stripped of HRH title but Sarah Ferguson got to keep her Duchess of York title? Also, why was Diana titled Princess Diana but Catherine is Princess William.?

Thanks
Sarah did not keep the Title Duchess of Yorjk but her anem has become Sarah, Duchess of York after the divorce. And for Diana it was Diana, Pricness of Wales. It is the same for the divorced wives of other peers. And Diana's title during the marriage was officially The Princess of Wales never Princess Diana.
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  #1597  
Old 11-08-2012, 12:52 PM
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The style and rank of Royal Highness arrived with their marriage and departed with divorce as they were no longer wives of sons of The Sovereign. Like all former wives of Peers, their titles became a style, similar to a surname, and they lost all rank and precedence because they were no longer "The" Duchess of York or "The" Princess of Wales.

In Diana's case, The Queen made special allowance for her position as the mother of a future King in an announcement from the Palace, stating Diana remained a member of the royal family and would be accorded her former precedence on all state and national occasions. In other words, she was no longer a Royal Highness, but would continue to be treated as such on certain occasions as the mother of Prince William.
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  #1598  
Old 11-08-2012, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Rocketmom View Post
Forgive me if this is a repeat....I scanned a lot of the pages to see if this was asked but didn't closely read all 78 pages :)

Why was Diana stripped of HRH title but Sarah Ferguson got to keep her Duchess of York title? Also, why was Diana titled Princess Diana but Catherine is Princess William.?

Thanks
Diana was stripped of her HRH because she was no longer married to one. .
Sarah did not keep her title as The Duchess of York, she holds the style of a divorced wife of a peer, Sarah, Duchess of York.

Diana wasn't titled Princess Diana, she was given that title by the press and the public, some say after the whole People's Princess speech. Diana was until the day she divorced The Princess Charles, or commonly known as The Princess of Wales. Catherine will hold that title when her husband is coronated as Prince of Wales.
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  #1599  
Old 11-08-2012, 01:38 PM
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Diana was never "Princess Diana" but was informally referred to as such, even though it was always incorrect. But the Palace and Household often used that style as well in referring to her, so it's probably safe to say it was tolerated since she was the mother of a future King.

Diana also remained a princess in style after the divorce, although downgraded by the loss of HRH. She wasn't "stripped" of her royal rank as a vindictive move....it arrived with marriage and departed with divorce, as confirmed by the issuance of Letters Patent in August 1996 stating a former wife of a son or male-line grandson of The Sovereign would not be entitled to hold the style of HRH upon divorce.

Diana and Sarah were the first women to divorce a Prince of the UK so it was logical that Letters Patent were issued to clarify how this new development would be addressed.
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  #1600  
Old 11-08-2012, 06:03 PM
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It is interesting to note that the LPs confirming the loss of the HRH was only issued AFTER Diana's divorce.

Sarah actually remained HRH from her divorce until the August LPs that year.

Both ladies became Princesses of the UK and HRHs when they married - just as Kate, Camilla, Sophie, Birgitte, Katherine and Marie-Christine have done. However as their husbands had other titles they used those titles rather than the lower Princess style - like Camilla (The Duchess of Corwall even though she is also The Princess of Wales), Sophie (The Countess of Wessex), Birgitte (The Duchess of Gloucester), Katherine (The Duchess of Kent) and Kate (The Duchess of Cambridge) while Marie-Christine is called Princess Michael because her husband is still a commoner and has no peerage title to raise his wife to a higher status than that of a simple princess. Birgitte, when she married was also known as Princess Richard but rose to the wife of a peer when her husband also became a peer on the death of his father.

Diana was never Princess Diana officially and the first to correct people was Diana herself - never to an ordinary member of the public but to those who should have known better. She went from Lady Diana Spencer to HRH The Princess of Wales to Diana, Princess of Wales while Sarah went from Sarah Ferguson to HRH The Duchess of York to Sarah, Duchess of York.

Another example of what has happened is Earl Spencer's myriad of wives who each, while married to him, were 'The Countess Spencer' but after their divorces were known as xxxxx, Countess Spencer.

This is just the standard form of a divorced wife of a peer - to take the former peerage title and use is after their first name while the wife of a peer has on first name in official documents etc e.g. in the CC Camilla is always called HRH The Duchess of Cornwall and Kate as HRH The Duchess of Cambridge. Even the men have no first names officially when they have a title e.g. William is officially HRH The Duke of Cambridge while Harry is still only HRH Prince Henry of Wales (and a commoner).
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