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  #1561  
Old 10-26-2012, 08:20 AM
Gentry
 
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There's a difference... George VI's heir was his daughter and under long established tradition & practice grandchildren in the female line were not entitled to the status of British princes & princesses with the style of HRH. King George VI was 51 yrs old when his daughter, the present Queen married. He was unlikely to have a son who would displace Elizabeth in the line of succession. Therefore, granting royal & princely rank to her children were not unreasonable given she would be the next Sovereign.


When I said Her Majesty was a traditionalist, what I meant was if William & Kate's first child is indeed a son, he would automatically be a Prince under LP of George V. The immediate need to issue new LP granting his & Kate's younger children (if born in The Queen's reign) royal status would be unnecessary seeing as they would attain that rank in due course. Now on the other hand with full primogeniture being the established norm in most all European monarchies, and the UK's attempts to legalize it within the next couple years, I can see Her Majesty granting the title of Princess and HRH to William & Kate's eldest child, if she is a daughter.
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  #1562  
Old 10-26-2012, 08:41 AM
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We'll have to wait and see, but The Queen is likely to issue Letters Patent if their first-born child is a daughter, assuming all of the Commonwealth Crown nations have passed appropriate legislation changing the succession to equal primogeniture.

Otherwise, there is no particular reason to do so since all of William's children will automatically become HRH in due course.
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  #1563  
Old 10-26-2012, 09:08 AM
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My personal opinion on this is, if their first born child is a girl, Letters Patent will be issued and make her a royal highness and princess, otherwise I think HM will follow the 1917 Letters Patent.
If HM doesn't make a first born girl a princess, even without equal primogeniture, the PC brigade will be out in force ranting and raving.
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  #1564  
Old 10-26-2012, 09:37 AM
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When British subject Christopher O'Neill marries HRH Princess Madeleine of Sweden, he probably will according to Swedish custom sharing her titles and become The Duke of Helsingland and Gästrikland. According to British law, British subjects need Letters Patent by the queen to use foreign titles in Britain and gain social precedence according to that.

I don't think she will recognize a potential Royal Highness - he could become a Swedish subject, after all, if he cared for that (if he gets that HRH at all!). But it could well be that she recognizes his rank and precedence at least like that of the son of a duke. Or nothing at all, as in in Britain the husband of a Duchess in her own right does not share his wife's title and rank. We'll see.

How do the US recognize foreign titles of American spouses of foreign nobles?
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  #1565  
Old 10-26-2012, 09:38 AM
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That is what I was saying all along. The eldest daughter I can see The Queen granting her princely rank. But if their first child is a son, they'll stay Lord & Lady.

When did the British monarch stop recognizing foreign titles? I'm assuming it was in 1917 when George V abandoned all German titles for him & his extended family.
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  #1566  
Old 10-26-2012, 09:54 AM
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I think a Royal Warrant was issued in 1932 that put an end to foreign titles in Britain but I'm not 100 percent sure. Someone else can correct me.
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  #1567  
Old 10-26-2012, 10:18 AM
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The reason I ask is because up until WWII all foreign titles were recognized; Saxe-Coburg Gothas, Tecks, Battenbergs, & Schleswig-Holstein etc...
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  #1568  
Old 10-26-2012, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HRHThePrince View Post
When did the British monarch stop recognizing foreign titles? I'm assuming it was in 1917 when George V abandoned all German titles for him & his extended family.
Yes that was the beginning of the end in 1917. I don't think the process was fully completed until the warrant of 1932 but again I can't be 100 percent sure.
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  #1569  
Old 10-26-2012, 10:24 AM
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I gotta surprise for you:


http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/si...n)?view=Binary
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  #1570  
Old 10-26-2012, 10:29 AM
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In 1917 , An Act to deprive Enemy Peers and Princes of British Dignities and Titles was passed and also in 1917 a series of Royal Warrants and LP were issued to grant peerages to German relatives who lost their German styles and titles (I think haha)

By 1932 all foreign titles were out by Royal Warrant. I'm looking for a link on the British Monarchy website to confirm this.
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  #1571  
Old 10-26-2012, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
When British subject Christopher O'Neill marries HRH Princess Madeleine of Sweden, he probably will according to Swedish custom sharing her titles and become The Duke of Helsingland and Gästrikland. According to British law, British subjects need Letters Patent by the queen to use foreign titles in Britain and gain social precedence according to that.

I don't think she will recognize a potential Royal Highness - he could become a Swedish subject, after all, if he cared for that (if he gets that HRH at all!). But it could well be that she recognizes his rank and precedence at least like that of the son of a duke. Or nothing at all, as in in Britain the husband of a Duchess in her own right does not share his wife's title and rank. We'll see.
It was stated in the engagement interview that Chris won't apply or receive Swedish citizenship. He will remain a British/American dual citizen. He also won't receive an HRH, if we are to go by what would have happened with Madeleine's first engagement.

Quote:
How do the US recognize foreign titles of American spouses of foreign nobles?
Americans may hold foreign titles and receive orders personally as long as they do not represent the United States, i.e. Representatives and Senators or the President of the United States. Chris would legally hold the male equivalent of his wife's titles in the US but (due to societal norms in America) he won't use them nor would any American call him by his titles -- unless of course they are a royal watcher.

Hope that helps.
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  #1572  
Old 10-26-2012, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by HRHThePrince View Post
I don't think this applies to the actual case when the British subject is actually a member (even by marriage) of a foreign reigning Royal House.
When HRH princess Katerine of Greece and Denmark married a British commoner and became a British citizen, she was given Letters Patent which allowed her to enjoy the style and ranke of a (British) duke's daughter in Britain, so she became in Britain Lady Katerine Brandram while in the rest of the world she was known as HRH Princess Katerine of Greece and Denmark.

In case of the future Duke of H&G it could be eg that he personally gets the precedence of a younger son of a Royal duke (that is: before the peers, but after the British Royals) when in company of his wife eg. - something similar must exist for the husbands of British princesses? Otherwise Sir Timothy couldn't eg sit next to his wife HRH The Princess Royal?
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  #1573  
Old 10-26-2012, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
How do the US recognize foreign titles of American spouses of foreign nobles?
The U.S. does not recognize foreign titles for American citizens under any circumstances as our Constitution forbids any titles of nobility. That doesn't mean an American cannot hold a title in another country, it just isn't recognized legally here on any documents issued by a federal or state authority.
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  #1574  
Old 10-26-2012, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by HRHThePrince View Post
The reason I ask is because up until WWII all foreign titles were recognized; Saxe-Coburg Gothas, Tecks, Battenbergs, & Schleswig-Holstein etc...
Queen Victoria's daughters (except Princess Louise) married German princes and dukes and she often recognized their titles in the UK after marriage as her grandchildren would carry their father's styles and often were British subjects.

George V ended this practice for obvious reasons after World War I as his entire family was German in blood and some of his closest relatives, including the Kaiser, had fought Great Britain in the war.

Given the revolutionary feelings sweeping through Europe that ended all of the major and minor monarchies and kingdoms after the war, he had to protect his throne.
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  #1575  
Old 10-26-2012, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
When HRH princess Katerine of Greece and Denmark married a British commoner and became a British citizen, she was given Letters Patent which allowed her to enjoy the style and ranke of a (British) duke's daughter in Britain, so she became in Britain Lady Katerine Brandram while in the rest of the world she was known as HRH Princess Katerine of Greece and Denmark.
George VI issued a Royal Warrant, not Letters Patent, granting Katherine the style and precedence of the daughter of a Duke. She was then known as Lady Katherine Brandham for the rest of her life as a British subject.
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  #1576  
Old 10-26-2012, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Molly2101 View Post
They do have the Princess style from their husband (Princess Charles, Princess Edward and Princess William) but you are right, they are not a Princess in their own right. Princess Maxima is an exception, but what about Princess Mary, Princess Marie, Princess Claire (Prince Laurent of Belgium's wife) and Princess Mabel (Prince Frisco of the Netherland's wife)? They became "Princess" upon their marriages.

It is just British tradition that the wives of Prince's do not become a Princess, but it is a shame as i'd love to have a Princess Sophie or Princess Catherine, though Catherine will no doubt be referred to as Princess anyway.
I had always thought that Mary was made a princess in her own right but was recently corrected somewhere on this forum. That means Marie is not a princess in her own right either. I believe that in the Dutch royal family only Maxima was created a princess in her own right. All the other ladies that married into the family were not. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Princess Mathilde was not only made a princess in her own right but her father and two uncles were created counts!
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  #1577  
Old 10-27-2012, 05:54 AM
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HM Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother was a widow of King George VI and mother to the current Queen.

I know all Royal Highness's curtsy to anyone with the rank of "His/Her Majesty". My question is did the Queen Mother have to curtsy to her own daughter? And though titled His Royal Highness, as the consort of the reigning monarch did Prince Philip have to curtsy to the Queen Mother?
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  #1578  
Old 10-27-2012, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by HRHThePrince View Post
And though titled His Royal Highness, as the consort of the reigning monarch did Prince Philip have to curtsy to the Queen Mother?
Men don't curtsy - so: no.
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  #1579  
Old 10-27-2012, 07:17 AM
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I mean bow
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  #1580  
Old 10-27-2012, 07:22 AM
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It has regularly been reported that Queen Mary was the first to curtsey to Edward VIII after the death of her husband, George V. She also is reported as saying that 'as her granny and subject' she had to be the first to curtsey to her granddaughter.

Now if Queen Mary curtseyed to her own son and grandson I would imagine that her daughter-in-law would also curtsey to her own daughter.

Philip was regularly seen to give a slight bow to the Queen Mother whenever they met in public - along with kissing her hand, often in the same movement.
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