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  #1501  
Old 10-09-2012, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
Actuall Felipe ceased to be an Infante when he was created Prince of Asturias.
Which is why I didn't mention "Infante" among Felipe's titles.
I'm aware he was Infante Don Felipe de Borbon y Grecia from his birth until 1977, when he was formally conferred with the title of The Prince of Asturias.

One question though: did he actually lose the title of "Prince of Spain" (or Infante), or it's just not used seeing as he has now higher titles of The Prince of Asturias, The Prince of Girona and The Prince of Viana?
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  #1502  
Old 10-09-2012, 05:01 PM
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Do you think that Zara Phillips could one day be rewarded with a British honours title and become Dame Zara Phillips/Zara Tindall if she continues to be successful in her equestrian career?
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  #1503  
Old 10-09-2012, 05:07 PM
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Do you think that Zara Phillips could one day be rewarded with a British honours title and become Dame Zara Phillips/Zara Tindall if she continues to be successful in her equestrian career?
I don't see why not. Zara has already got OBE so if she wins a gold in Rio, she'll definitely be up for DBE.

Kelly Holmes got DBE for her two Olympic gold medals, I daresay most of London 2012 gold medallists will be similarly rewarded in this year's Honours List, so why not Zara? In fact, I wouldn't be surprised at all if her silver got recognized this year in some way. Not DBE, but CBE could well be on cards.
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  #1504  
Old 10-09-2012, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Meraude View Post
Do you think that Zara Phillips could one day be rewarded with a British honours title and become Dame Zara Phillips/Zara Tindall if she continues to be successful in her equestrian career?
Well she is already an MBE, so yes it is possible she could achieve success as an equestrian/charity leader/sports administrator or some other field and become a Dame or even a life peer at some point in her life. There is certainly nothing that would bar her being recognized for a great achievement or a career of high achievements.
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  #1505  
Old 10-10-2012, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
Which is why I didn't mention "Infante" among Felipe's titles.
I'm aware he was Infante Don Felipe de Borbon y Grecia from his birth until 1977, when he was formally conferred with the title of The Prince of Asturias.

One question though: did he actually lose the title of "Prince of Spain" (or Infante), or it's just not used seeing as he has now higher titles of The Prince of Asturias, The Prince of Girona and The Prince of Viana?
You wrote:
he goes as His Royal Highness the Most Serene Infante Don Felipe Juan Pablo Alfonso de Todos los Santos de Borbón y Grecia, Prince of Asturias, Prince of Girona, Prince of Viana, Duke of Montblanc, Count of Cervera and Lord of Balaguer.

I think he lost it. Ath his Wedding all his Titles where read but Infante was not among them
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  #1506  
Old 10-10-2012, 03:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
You wrote:
he goes as His Royal Highness the Most Serene Infante Don Felipe Juan Pablo Alfonso de Todos los Santos de Borbón y Grecia, Prince of Asturias, Prince of Girona, Prince of Viana, Duke of Montblanc, Count of Cervera and Lord of Balaguer.

I think he lost it. Ath his Wedding all his Titles where read but Infante was not among them
My apologies.
I concentrated on "Don" (which immediately precedes his name, and not Infante).

According to Wikipedia: "Rarely used, the Prince's style and title in full is: His Royal Highness the Most Serene Infante Don Felipe Juan Pablo Alfonso de Todos los Santos de Borbón y Grecia, Prince of Asturias, Prince of Girona, Prince of Viana, Duke of Montblanc, Count of Cervera and Lord of Balaguer."

At the same time, the page dedicated to Prince Felipe's titles and styles does not mention "Infante" among them. According to that article, his official title is "His Royal Highness Prince Felipe Juan Pablo Alfonso de Todos los Santos, Prince of Asturias," Prince of Girona, Prince of Viana, Duke of Montblanc, Count of Cervera and Lord ofBalaguer." It's not the full official title though, so I'd assume Infante is still somewhere there.

I checked the official website of the Spanish Royal Family (in English and Spanish) but there is pretty much no information on Felipe's titles bar the shortest official version. I still don't see why he would lose the title of Infante though.

Again, according to Wikipedia:
Quote:
In the Royal Family the style of Infante is reserved for the children of the Monarch and the heir apparent (Infantes by birth). The current Infante of Spain (by birth) is Infante Felipe, Prince of Asturias (note: as heir apparent to the Spanish throne, he is normally styled as HRH The Prince of Asturias).
Interestingly though, the Spanish version of the article directly contradicts the English version and states that the title "Infante" is reserved for the children of the Monarch and the heir apparent (but not the heir apparent himself who enjoys the higher title of a Prince - Prince of Asturias), and others whom the King will see fit to invest with the title. According to the Spanish version, the only Infante right now is Carlos of the Two Sicilies, Duke of Calabria.
Quote:
Por nacimiento, los hijos primogénitos de los reyes nacían infantes como sus hermanos, pero era en el momento de su designación como herederos por las Cortes cuando se convertían en Príncipes de Asturias.

From birth, the first-born sons of the Kings are Infantes as their brothers, but when they are appointed the Heir (apparent) by the Cortes, they become the Princes of Asturias
Go figure!
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  #1507  
Old 10-10-2012, 04:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
My apologies.
I concentrated on "Don" (which immediately precedes his name, and not Infante).

According to Wikipedia: "Rarely used, the Prince's style and title in full is: His Royal Highness the Most Serene Infante Don Felipe Juan Pablo Alfonso de Todos los Santos de Borbón y Grecia, Prince of Asturias, Prince of Girona, Prince of Viana, Duke of Montblanc, Count of Cervera and Lord of Balaguer."

At the same time, the page dedicated to Prince Felipe's titles and styles does not mention "Infante" among them. According to that article, his official title is "His Royal Highness Prince Felipe Juan Pablo Alfonso de Todos los Santos, Prince of Asturias," Prince of Girona, Prince of Viana, Duke of Montblanc, Count of Cervera and Lord ofBalaguer." It's not the full official title though, so I'd assume Infante is still somewhere there.

I checked the official website of the Spanish Royal Family (in English and Spanish) but there is pretty much no information on Felipe's titles bar the shortest official version. I still don't see why he would lose the title of Infante though.

Again, according to Wikipedia:
Interestingly though, the Spanish version of the article directly contradicts the English version and states that the title "Infante" is reserved for the children of the Monarch and the heir apparent (but not the heir apparent himself who enjoys the higher title of a Prince - Prince of Asturias), and others whom the King will see fit to invest with the title. According to the Spanish version, the only Infante right now is Carlos of the Two Sicilies, Duke of Calabria.


Go figure!
I think it is in the Royal Decree about Royal Titles from 1987 that cjildren of the King and the Prince of Asturias are /Infante/Infanta with the exception of the Prince of Asturias but can't find it online at the moment.
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  #1508  
Old 10-10-2012, 10:45 AM
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As for the question of Charles' style... He is formally His Royal Highness The Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, etc., etc. The most appropriate form of referring to him is IMO The Prince of Wales, simply because he is the current holder of that title. The same's with his sister, who is the only Princess Royal in the realm. Charles, Prince of Wales, Prince Charles, Prince Charles, Prince of Wales or The Prince of Wales, it's all appropriate forms of styling him because we all know who's that man. It is widely used in the media and among the people. But the Court uses The Prince of Wales, The Duchess of Cornwall, The Queen, The Duke of Kent (not Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall, Queen Elizabeth II, Prince Edward, Duke of Kent) styles only, with an exception for Charles, when reffered to as the Duke of Rothesay, his top Scottish peerage, after using his name and title of Prince (it is then The Prince Charles, Duke of Rothesay).

As for Marina's titles and style...did she lose her title and style in Greece and Denmark when married a foreign royal? Did she lost her status as a dynast of the Greek and Danish Royal Houses? She became a British subject and her style and titles in there were a question of local practice, that's obvious, but what about abroad and especially in her homeland and the home country of her Royal house?
The Queen's decision to allow her to be officially styled as Princess Marina (she was probably popularly known as a Princess in her own right already) did not formally recognise her foreign titles in the UK. The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester was born styled a Lady and was also given the same courtesy as her in law, a born Royal Princess Marina.
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  #1509  
Old 10-10-2012, 04:03 PM
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Marina spent much of her childhood living in Paris. The Greek Royal Family remained in-exile in 1934, so even though the Greeks once again restored the throne under George II in 1935, by then she was married and styled as HRH The Duchess of Kent.

As a matter of general practice, most royal houses required princesses to relinquish their succession rights upon marriage to a foreign house. This was logical since the right of succession in the female line was usually secondary to the male and a princess was expected to marry and provide heirs to their husband's line.

There's no evidence Marina ever formally relinquished her title as Princess of Greece & Denmark, but again, as a matter of practice, a woman assumes the style, title and rank of her husband upon marriage. Marina was marrying a British prince and royal Duke, so she automatically assumed her husband's titles and rank.

The Queen allowed her aunts to assume the princely style with their Christian names to differentiate them from their new daughter-in-laws who were becoming The Duchesses of Kent and Gloucester. Rather than being known as "HRH The Dowager Duchess of X", she acknowledged their seniority and rank as mothers of male-line grandsons of George V who succeeded to their father's dukedoms.

Alice and Marina were both Princesses of the UK by marriage and it was simply a matter of styling, as they were both HRH as widows in their own right.
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  #1510  
Old 10-11-2012, 01:32 AM
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Here is the original Gazette notice of the 1917 LP and Royal proclamation of the name change to Windsor.
By the KING. A PROCLAMATION declaring that the Name of Windsor is to be borne by his Royal House and Family and Relinquishing the Use of All German Titles and Dignities. (London Gazette, issue 30186, July 17, 1917, p. 1.)

Whitehall, 11th December, 1917.
The KING has been pleased by Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, bearing date the 30th ultimo, to define the styles and titles to be borne henceforth by members of the Royal Family. It is declared by the Letters Patent that the children of any Sovereign of the United Kingdom and the children of the sons of any such Sovereign and the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales shall have and at all times hold and enjoy the style, title or attribute of Royal Highness with their titular dignity of Prince or Princess prefixed to their respective Christian names or with their other titles of honour; that save as aforesaid the titles of Royal Highness, Highness or Serene Highness, and the titular dignity of Prince and Princess shall cease except those titles already granted and remaining unrevoked; and that the grandchildren of the sons of any such Sovereign in the direct male line (save only the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales) shall have the style and title enjoyed by the children of Dukes.
(London Gazette, issue 30428, Dec. 14, 1917, p. 2.)
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  #1511  
Old 10-11-2012, 04:04 PM
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So basically your 'style and titular dignity' is whatever HM decides and is not dependent on LP. The Queen as fount of all honour is allowed this royal prerogative. I can elaborate but this a the simple explanation. An example would be during the HM the Queen Mum's funeral she was styled Princess Elizabeth by Garter King of Arms solely by the will and pleasure of the Queen.
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  #1512  
Old 10-11-2012, 04:42 PM
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Not exactly. The style and rank of HRH Prince/Princess is entirely within the gift of The Sovereign and is regulated by the 1917 Letters Patent. Variations thereof are at the will of The Sovereign and these changes are also marked by Letters Patent.

For example, the 1937 Letters Patent of George VI provided the future wife and children of The Duke of Windsor would not share his royal rank. The 1996 Letters Patent of Elizabeth II provided that former wives of sons or male-line grandsons of The Sovereign would not be entitled to hold the rank of HRH upon divorce.

Allowing Marina and Alice to assume the royal style using their names was a courtesy from The Queen, but it was not necessary to issue Letters Patent. They were already Princesses of the UK by marriage ("HRH The Princess George" and "HRH The Princess Henry") and remained so as widows.

The Queen Mother was a dowager queen in her own right and the recital of all her honours and titles at her funeral included "Princess Elizabeth", which again is perfectly appropriate because she became a Princess when she married The Duke of York in 1923.
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  #1513  
Old 10-11-2012, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
Not exactly. The style and rank of HRH Prince/Princess is entirely within the gift of The Sovereign and is regulated by the 1917 Letters Patent. Variations thereof are at the will of The Sovereign and these changes are also marked by Letters Patent.

For example, the 1937 Letters Patent of George VI provided the future wife and children of The Duke of Windsor would not share his royal rank. The 1986 Letters Patent of Elizabeth II provided that former wives of sons or male-line grandsons of The Sovereign would not be entitled to hold the rank of HRH upon divorce.

Allowing Marina and Alice to assume the royal style using their names was a courtesy from The Queen, but it was not necessary to issue Letters Patent. They were already Princesses of the UK by marriage ("HRH The Princess George" and "HRH The Princess Henry") and remained so as widows.

The Queen Mother was a dowager queen in her own right and the recital of all her honours and titles at her funeral included "Princess Elizabeth", which again is perfectly appropriate because she became a Princess when she married The Duke of York in 1923.
No additions to your excellent post, just one thing: the Queen's Letters Patent on former wives of British Princes was issued in 1996, not 1986.
I know it was almost certainly a typo, just a heads up.
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  #1514  
Old 10-11-2012, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post

Allowing Marina and Alice to assume the royal style using their names was a courtesy from The Queen, but it was not necessary to issue Letters Patent. They were already Princesses of the UK by marriage ("HRH The Princess George" and "HRH The Princess Henry") and remained so as widows.

The Queen Mother was a dowager queen in her own right and the recital of all her honours and titles at her funeral included "Princess Elizabeth", which again is perfectly appropriate because she became a Princess when she married The Duke of York in 1923.
People are seemingly contradicting themselves. LP are needed UNLESS it is a courtesy from the Queen. All royal styles and titles are courtesies from HM and she can change or revoke them at any time. The former Duchess of York and future Queen of the UK was never "Princess Elisabeth" but HM wanted her styled as such at the funeral. Again allowing Marina and Alice to assume the royal style using their names was a courtesy from The Queen, but it was not necessary to issue Letters Patent. And as people on these forums often get corrected for calling Kate, Princess Catherine , there is a difference of princess by 'blood' and by marriage.
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  #1515  
Old 10-11-2012, 06:34 PM
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If the Queen actually granted Marina and Alice the title of British Princesses in their own right, Letters Patent would have been required.
Allowing them to use the titles by courtesy did not require Letters Patent. Marina and Alice used the titles without actually having the right to them, simply because the Monarch allowed that.
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  #1516  
Old 10-11-2012, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post


If the Queen actually granted Marina and Alice the title of British Princesses in their own right, Letters Patent would have been required.
Allowing them to use the titles by courtesy did not require Letters Patent. Marina and Alice used the titles without actually having the right to them, simply because the Monarch allowed that.
Is one's style whatever the sovereign chooses to instruct her subjects on how a certain individual shall be called? I needed to brush up on my British law because outside of the creation of a Peer, HM's will and pleasure regarding royal styles and titles can be announced whatever way she chooses. HM can announce tomorrow that the Duchess of Cornwall is to be henceforth styled 'Princess Camilla' without LP and that would have full and 'legal' effect.
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  #1517  
Old 10-11-2012, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl

Is one's style whatever the sovereign chooses to instruct her subjects on how a certain individual shall be called? I needed to brush up on my British law because outside of the creation of a Peer, HM's will and pleasure regarding royal styles and titles can be announced whatever way she chooses. HM can announce tomorrow that the Duchess of Cornwall is to be henceforth styled 'Princess Camilla' without LP and that would have full and 'legal' effect.
Yes, that's correct. But again, Camilla is the wife of a son of The Sovereign and is already a Princess. The use of the style is traditionally with reference to their husband's name, but The Sovereign can grant the courtesy at any time if they chose to do so. It doesn't change the fact they are Princesses by marriage, not in their own right.
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  #1518  
Old 10-11-2012, 11:59 PM
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Camilla & Catherine are Princess of the United Kingdom by marriage, not in their own right though.
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  #1519  
Old 10-12-2012, 02:03 AM
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According to British law, princesses of other Royal Houses loose their Royal styles and titles once they become British subjects. It didn't matter with Marian, as she became a British HRH on her marriage, but her cousin Ekaterina of Greece and Denmark lost her title on marrying a British commoner and was granted the right to the style of the daughter of a duke, thus became Lady Katherine Brandram with a British passport.
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  #1520  
Old 10-12-2012, 03:21 AM
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If Prince Charles died before coming king, will Prince Andrew automatically become Duke of Cornwall as the eldest son of the British monarch? I know that Prince William would then be 1st in line of succession as his grandmother's new heir & as a grandson is not eligible to the Dukedom of Cornwall title. However, she could choose to create him The Prince of Wales.
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