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  #1501  
Old 10-10-2012, 04:03 PM
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Marina spent much of her childhood living in Paris. The Greek Royal Family remained in-exile in 1934, so even though the Greeks once again restored the throne under George II in 1935, by then she was married and styled as HRH The Duchess of Kent.

As a matter of general practice, most royal houses required princesses to relinquish their succession rights upon marriage to a foreign house. This was logical since the right of succession in the female line was usually secondary to the male and a princess was expected to marry and provide heirs to their husband's line.

There's no evidence Marina ever formally relinquished her title as Princess of Greece & Denmark, but again, as a matter of practice, a woman assumes the style, title and rank of her husband upon marriage. Marina was marrying a British prince and royal Duke, so she automatically assumed her husband's titles and rank.

The Queen allowed her aunts to assume the princely style with their Christian names to differentiate them from their new daughter-in-laws who were becoming The Duchesses of Kent and Gloucester. Rather than being known as "HRH The Dowager Duchess of X", she acknowledged their seniority and rank as mothers of male-line grandsons of George V who succeeded to their father's dukedoms.

Alice and Marina were both Princesses of the UK by marriage and it was simply a matter of styling, as they were both HRH as widows in their own right.
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  #1502  
Old 10-11-2012, 01:32 AM
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Here is the original Gazette notice of the 1917 LP and Royal proclamation of the name change to Windsor.
By the KING. A PROCLAMATION declaring that the Name of Windsor is to be borne by his Royal House and Family and Relinquishing the Use of All German Titles and Dignities. (London Gazette, issue 30186, July 17, 1917, p. 1.)

Whitehall, 11th December, 1917.
The KING has been pleased by Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, bearing date the 30th ultimo, to define the styles and titles to be borne henceforth by members of the Royal Family. It is declared by the Letters Patent that the children of any Sovereign of the United Kingdom and the children of the sons of any such Sovereign and the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales shall have and at all times hold and enjoy the style, title or attribute of Royal Highness with their titular dignity of Prince or Princess prefixed to their respective Christian names or with their other titles of honour; that save as aforesaid the titles of Royal Highness, Highness or Serene Highness, and the titular dignity of Prince and Princess shall cease except those titles already granted and remaining unrevoked; and that the grandchildren of the sons of any such Sovereign in the direct male line (save only the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales) shall have the style and title enjoyed by the children of Dukes.
(London Gazette, issue 30428, Dec. 14, 1917, p. 2.)
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  #1503  
Old 10-11-2012, 04:04 PM
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So basically your 'style and titular dignity' is whatever HM decides and is not dependent on LP. The Queen as fount of all honour is allowed this royal prerogative. I can elaborate but this a the simple explanation. An example would be during the HM the Queen Mum's funeral she was styled Princess Elizabeth by Garter King of Arms solely by the will and pleasure of the Queen.
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  #1504  
Old 10-11-2012, 04:42 PM
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Not exactly. The style and rank of HRH Prince/Princess is entirely within the gift of The Sovereign and is regulated by the 1917 Letters Patent. Variations thereof are at the will of The Sovereign and these changes are also marked by Letters Patent.

For example, the 1937 Letters Patent of George VI provided the future wife and children of The Duke of Windsor would not share his royal rank. The 1996 Letters Patent of Elizabeth II provided that former wives of sons or male-line grandsons of The Sovereign would not be entitled to hold the rank of HRH upon divorce.

Allowing Marina and Alice to assume the royal style using their names was a courtesy from The Queen, but it was not necessary to issue Letters Patent. They were already Princesses of the UK by marriage ("HRH The Princess George" and "HRH The Princess Henry") and remained so as widows.

The Queen Mother was a dowager queen in her own right and the recital of all her honours and titles at her funeral included "Princess Elizabeth", which again is perfectly appropriate because she became a Princess when she married The Duke of York in 1923.
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  #1505  
Old 10-11-2012, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
Not exactly. The style and rank of HRH Prince/Princess is entirely within the gift of The Sovereign and is regulated by the 1917 Letters Patent. Variations thereof are at the will of The Sovereign and these changes are also marked by Letters Patent.

For example, the 1937 Letters Patent of George VI provided the future wife and children of The Duke of Windsor would not share his royal rank. The 1986 Letters Patent of Elizabeth II provided that former wives of sons or male-line grandsons of The Sovereign would not be entitled to hold the rank of HRH upon divorce.

Allowing Marina and Alice to assume the royal style using their names was a courtesy from The Queen, but it was not necessary to issue Letters Patent. They were already Princesses of the UK by marriage ("HRH The Princess George" and "HRH The Princess Henry") and remained so as widows.

The Queen Mother was a dowager queen in her own right and the recital of all her honours and titles at her funeral included "Princess Elizabeth", which again is perfectly appropriate because she became a Princess when she married The Duke of York in 1923.
No additions to your excellent post, just one thing: the Queen's Letters Patent on former wives of British Princes was issued in 1996, not 1986.
I know it was almost certainly a typo, just a heads up.
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  #1506  
Old 10-11-2012, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post

Allowing Marina and Alice to assume the royal style using their names was a courtesy from The Queen, but it was not necessary to issue Letters Patent. They were already Princesses of the UK by marriage ("HRH The Princess George" and "HRH The Princess Henry") and remained so as widows.

The Queen Mother was a dowager queen in her own right and the recital of all her honours and titles at her funeral included "Princess Elizabeth", which again is perfectly appropriate because she became a Princess when she married The Duke of York in 1923.
People are seemingly contradicting themselves. LP are needed UNLESS it is a courtesy from the Queen. All royal styles and titles are courtesies from HM and she can change or revoke them at any time. The former Duchess of York and future Queen of the UK was never "Princess Elisabeth" but HM wanted her styled as such at the funeral. Again allowing Marina and Alice to assume the royal style using their names was a courtesy from The Queen, but it was not necessary to issue Letters Patent. And as people on these forums often get corrected for calling Kate, Princess Catherine , there is a difference of princess by 'blood' and by marriage.
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  #1507  
Old 10-11-2012, 06:34 PM
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If the Queen actually granted Marina and Alice the title of British Princesses in their own right, Letters Patent would have been required.
Allowing them to use the titles by courtesy did not require Letters Patent. Marina and Alice used the titles without actually having the right to them, simply because the Monarch allowed that.
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  #1508  
Old 10-11-2012, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post


If the Queen actually granted Marina and Alice the title of British Princesses in their own right, Letters Patent would have been required.
Allowing them to use the titles by courtesy did not require Letters Patent. Marina and Alice used the titles without actually having the right to them, simply because the Monarch allowed that.
Is one's style whatever the sovereign chooses to instruct her subjects on how a certain individual shall be called? I needed to brush up on my British law because outside of the creation of a Peer, HM's will and pleasure regarding royal styles and titles can be announced whatever way she chooses. HM can announce tomorrow that the Duchess of Cornwall is to be henceforth styled 'Princess Camilla' without LP and that would have full and 'legal' effect.
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  #1509  
Old 10-11-2012, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl

Is one's style whatever the sovereign chooses to instruct her subjects on how a certain individual shall be called? I needed to brush up on my British law because outside of the creation of a Peer, HM's will and pleasure regarding royal styles and titles can be announced whatever way she chooses. HM can announce tomorrow that the Duchess of Cornwall is to be henceforth styled 'Princess Camilla' without LP and that would have full and 'legal' effect.
Yes, that's correct. But again, Camilla is the wife of a son of The Sovereign and is already a Princess. The use of the style is traditionally with reference to their husband's name, but The Sovereign can grant the courtesy at any time if they chose to do so. It doesn't change the fact they are Princesses by marriage, not in their own right.
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  #1510  
Old 10-11-2012, 11:59 PM
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Camilla & Catherine are Princess of the United Kingdom by marriage, not in their own right though.
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  #1511  
Old 10-12-2012, 02:03 AM
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According to British law, princesses of other Royal Houses loose their Royal styles and titles once they become British subjects. It didn't matter with Marian, as she became a British HRH on her marriage, but her cousin Ekaterina of Greece and Denmark lost her title on marrying a British commoner and was granted the right to the style of the daughter of a duke, thus became Lady Katherine Brandram with a British passport.
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  #1512  
Old 10-12-2012, 03:21 AM
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If Prince Charles died before coming king, will Prince Andrew automatically become Duke of Cornwall as the eldest son of the British monarch? I know that Prince William would then be 1st in line of succession as his grandmother's new heir & as a grandson is not eligible to the Dukedom of Cornwall title. However, she could choose to create him The Prince of Wales.
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  #1513  
Old 10-12-2012, 03:27 AM
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The Duke of Cornwall title would merge with the Crown if Charles died. If Charles had no descendants, Andrew would get the title.
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  #1514  
Old 10-12-2012, 04:48 AM
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Duke of Cornwall title

I thought grandsons of the monarch can't inherit the title? King George III was the heir of George II, however he was created Prince of Wales but was ineligible to be Duke of Cornwall.
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  #1515  
Old 10-12-2012, 05:02 AM
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What about Queen Mum's Princess Elizabeth style? I didn't know that... Did the Queen ask to name her late mother like that or it was an invention of the Arms staff? Or maybe it was not an invention but an old custom?
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  #1516  
Old 10-12-2012, 05:04 AM
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I thought grandsons of the monarch can't inherit the title? King George III was the heir of George II, however he was created Prince of Wales but was ineligible to be Duke of Cornwall.
They can't. Like I said if Charles died the title would merge with the crown and it wouldn't be used until William was King (if his first born was a son). William would presumably be created The Prince Of Wales if his grandmother was still Queen.

Andrew wouldn't have the title in any case, he would have to be heir apparent and the eldest son which he wouldn't be.
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  #1517  
Old 10-12-2012, 05:32 AM
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Duke of Cornwall title

So Prince Andrew would lack only 1 eligibility to be Duke of Cornwall which is

Though the new eldest son, he's not the heir apparent to the throne.

And on his fathers death (Charles died before becoming king), Prince William would lack only 1 eligibility to be Duke of Cornwall which is

He's not the eldest son of the Sovereign, only a grandson.

To be Duke of Cornwall you have to be the eldest son of the Sovereign & heir apparent to the throne.
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  #1518  
Old 10-12-2012, 06:09 AM
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All correct.
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  #1519  
Old 10-12-2012, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by kbk
What about Queen Mum's Princess Elizabeth style? I didn't know that... Did the Queen ask to name her late mother like that or it was an invention of the Arms staff? Or maybe it was not an invention but an old custom?
The Queen is fount of all honours and can express her Will in terms of her mother's style and title without question. Since her two aunts were allowed the style of Princess using their Christian names as widows, it would be logical her mother was referred to similarly at her funeral.
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  #1520  
Old 10-12-2012, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Kataryn
According to British law, princesses of other Royal Houses loose their Royal styles and titles once they become British subjects. It didn't matter with Marian, as she became a British HRH on her marriage, but her cousin Ekaterina of Greece and Denmark lost her title on marrying a British commoner and was granted the right to the style of the daughter of a duke, thus became Lady Katherine Brandram with a British passport.
Foreign royals do not lose their titles if they become British subjects. However, they can only use them if so recognized by The Sovereign, otherwise they are granted another style by Royal Warrant, or in the case of females, simply assume their husband's style and title.
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