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  #1481  
Old 10-09-2012, 01:44 PM
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It is a big deal for me..And why does it need to differentiate it that way?
There will be two different pages..
Prince of Wales
Prince Charles, Prince of Wales (Instead of the present Charles, PoW)
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  #1482  
Old 10-09-2012, 01:51 PM
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I want a full-fledged explanation regarding this..If its already discussed, please lemme know..

See I believe Charles should be referred generally, (not officially) as Prince Charles, The Prince of Wales, right? And similarly, his sister is Princess Anne, The Princess Royal..

But Wikipedia refers them as Charles,Prince of Wales and Anne, Princess Royal..

...

I cannot claim to be 100% certain on this issue, but it has always been my understanding that the difference of styling between Charles and Anne versus Andrew, Philip and other Princes is the following: both Prince Charles and Princess Anne have princely titles (The Prince of Wales and The Princess Royal respectively) that outrank their birth titles of Prince and Princess of the United Kingdom. As with all titles, the highest takes precedence, which is why they are known Charles, The Prince of Wales (or His Royal Highness The Prince of Wales) and Anne, The Princess Royal (or Her Royal Highness The Princess Royal).

Prince Philip, Prince Andrew, Prince William and others do not have Princely titles that outrank their birth (or, in case of Prince Philip, given) titles of Princes, which is why they are known under the more usual format of Prince + Name + Highest available title (e.g. Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh).

Hence, William is currently known as Prince William, Duke of Cambridge. However, if he is invested as The Prince of Wales during the reign of his father, he should come to be known as William, The Prince of Wales.

The same can be said of Felipe, Prince of Asturias (not Prince Felipe, Prince of Asturias). On the other hand, Prince Philippe of Belgium's highest title (the title of an Heir Apparent to the Belgian Throne) is that of a Duke (the Duke of Brabant), which is why his birth title of a Prince is still used, meaning he is styled and titled as Prince Philippe, Duke of Brabant.


I'm sure someone will correct me if my point of view is erroneous.
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  #1483  
Old 10-09-2012, 01:56 PM
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Hmmm..well thought, Artemisia..Looking forward for more discussion on this, hopefully..
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  #1484  
Old 10-09-2012, 02:01 PM
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When in doubt, I trust the official website of the British Monarchy. Royal.gov.uk gives the following:
His Royal Highness Prince Charles Philip Arthur George, Prince of Wales, KG, KT, GCB, OM, AK, QSO, PC, ADC, Earl of Chester, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Baron of Renfrew, Lord of the Isles and Prince and Great Steward of Scotland.
and
(For the heading The Princess Royal) The Princess Royal, ...was baptised Anne Elizabeth Alice Louise at Buckingham Palace on 21 October 1950.

She received the title Princess Royal from The Queen in June 1987; she was previously known as Princess Anne. Her Royal Highness is the seventh holder of the title.

and
(for the heading Duke of York) His Royal Highness The Prince Andrew was created Duke of York, Earl of Inverness and Baron Killyleagh on the occasion of his marriage to Miss Sarah Ferguson on 23 July 1986.
and
(for the heading the Earl of Wessex) Born in 1964, Prince Edward was created The Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn on his marriage in 1999.


It is correct to refer to them as Prince Charles, The Princess Royal, The Duke of York and the Earl of Wessex.


We tend to refer to them as Princes Andrew and Edward and Princess Anne because we knew them that way for years until they were CREATED their current titles. It's habit, IMHO.




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  #1485  
Old 10-09-2012, 02:33 PM
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The first point of your refence clearly states that he should be known as
Prince Charles, Prince of Wales..and not Charles,Prince of Wales
Then it will be similar for Anne also.Princess Anne, Princess Royal..not Anne, Princess Royal..
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  #1486  
Old 10-09-2012, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by vkrish View Post
The first point of your refence clearly states that he should be known as
Prince Charles, Prince of Wales..and not Charles,Prince of Wales
Then it will be similar for Anne also.Princess Anne, Princess Royal..not Anne, Princess Royal..
Not necessarily.
The first point in AdmirerUS's post merely names all of Prince Charles' titles and styles. His birth title of the Prince of the United Kingdom is still his, of course: it's just outranked by a higher-ranking The Prince of Wales. Same for Princess Anne.
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  #1487  
Old 10-09-2012, 02:44 PM
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Then it would have been

His Royal Highness Charles Prince of Wales....etc..etc..etc.. instead of
His Royal Highness Prince Charles Prince of Wales..etc..etc.. as it is in official site
So he should always be Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, with both titles..I guess I m getting obsessed with this..
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  #1488  
Old 10-09-2012, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by vkrish View Post
Then it would have been

His Royal Highness Charles Prince of Wales....etc..etc..etc.. instead of
His Royal Highness Prince Charles Prince of Wales..etc..etc.. as it is in official site
So he should always be Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, with both titles..I guess I m getting obsessed with this..
It's "Prince Charles, Prince of Wales" because his birth title of the Prince of the United Kingdom hasn't gone anywhere. When all his styles and titles are mentioned, it makes sense "Prince Charles" is among them as well. However, when only the highest available title is mentioned, than Charles, Prince of Wales is the more accurate one. Although it's all relative: personally, I'll always call him Prince Charles or Prince Charles, Prince of Wales simply because anything else sounds quite unusual to me.

I had previously mentioned the example of Prince Felipe (or, more accurately, Felipe, Prince of Asturias). When his full titles and styles are listed, he goes as His Royal Highness the Most Serene Infante Don Felipe Juan Pablo Alfonso de Todos los Santos de Borbón y Grecia, Prince of Asturias, Prince of Girona, Prince of Viana, Duke of Montblanc, Count of Cervera and Lord of Balaguer. However, when only the highest (most important) one is listed, then it's Felipe, Prince of Asturias. Substitute "Don" for a "Prince" and you'll get the same picture as with Prince Charles.


This is an interesting question for those who are interested in titles and styling, and I'm sure you'll heard many other opinions on this issue; this is just mine.
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  #1489  
Old 10-09-2012, 03:16 PM
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Sorry - I ommitted - in front of the paragraph with all of Charles styles/titles, the heading for the page at royal.gov is PRINCE OF WALES. That is also the title of his own official web page; he is most correctly first Prince of Wales. I just knew if I took a stab at this instead of leaving it to the pros (Artemisia, Iluvbertie et al) that I would confuse the issue. Sorry.
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  #1490  
Old 10-09-2012, 03:54 PM
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The easiest way to look at it is what titles and styles are various members of the royal family entitled to, whether by birth, succession or grant.

For example, Charles is "HRH The Prince Charles" as a son of The Sovereign. In addition, as the eldest son and heir, he is automatically "The Duke of Cornwall" in England and "The Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Baron of Renfrew, etc." in Scotland. As the heir to the throne, in 1958, he was created "Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester" in Wales by The Queen.

So, they don't lose any titles or styles, but they are generally styled by their highest peerage title, albeit with royal rank as HRH ("HRH The Prince of Wales").
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  #1491  
Old 10-09-2012, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
Sorry to bring up this discussion again, but while writing a blog entry concerning the re-burial of Prince Paul and Princess Olga of Yugoslavia, I came across an interesting information which may have some relevance to Princess Marina's right or lack of thereof to be called "Princess" in Britain as well (not Princess of the United Kingdom but Princess of Greece and Denmark).

When Princess Olga, Marina's sister, married Prince Paul of Yugoslavia, her husband was a mere HH (His Highness), being a member of the cadet line of the Yugoslavian Royal Family. That changed with the new House Law of 1930, which made him a Royal Highness. Olga, however, bore the style of Royal Highness in her personal capacity and her official title was Her Royal Highness Princess Olga of Yugoslavia from the beginning.

To me, that shows that Princesses that marry foreign royals do not lose their birth styles and titles (unless they renounce them).
Its not that she lost the title Princess of Greece and Denmark or ceased to be a Greek HRH, it is just that in Britain in order for a British subject to officialy use and be known by your foreign title you need a Royal Licence and they have not been granted since 1932 ( and licences granted before 1932 were to expire with the death of the then current holder of the title). So Marina when she married, in the UK at least, became HRH The Duchess of Kent. When her son married and she wished to be differentiated from her new daughter in law the Queen gave permission for her to be known as HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent and a few years later gave the same permission for the same reason to Alice Gloucester to be known as HRH Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester. Neither lady was created a UK princess in their own right, it was a courtesy of the Queen but also not an official recognition of a Greek title either. If she had been officially recognizing Marina's Greek title she would have been known in the UK as HRH Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark, Duchess of Kent and Alice may well have been simlpy HRH The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester.
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  #1492  
Old 10-09-2012, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post

I had previously mentioned the example of Prince Felipe (or, more accurately, Felipe, Prince of Asturias). When his full titles and styles are listed, he goes as His Royal Highness the Most Serene Infante Don Felipe Juan Pablo Alfonso de Todos los Santos de Borbón y Grecia, Prince of Asturias, Prince of Girona, Prince of Viana, Duke of Montblanc, Count of Cervera and Lord of Balaguer. However, when only the highest (most important) one is listed, then it's Felipe, Prince of Asturias. Substitute "Don" for a "Prince" and you'll get the same picture as with Prince Charles.

Actuall Felipe ceased to be an Infante when he was created Prince of Asturias.
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  #1493  
Old 10-09-2012, 04:45 PM
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Actuall Felipe ceased to be an Infante when he was created Prince of Asturias.
Which is why I didn't mention "Infante" among Felipe's titles.
I'm aware he was Infante Don Felipe de Borbon y Grecia from his birth until 1977, when he was formally conferred with the title of The Prince of Asturias.

One question though: did he actually lose the title of "Prince of Spain" (or Infante), or it's just not used seeing as he has now higher titles of The Prince of Asturias, The Prince of Girona and The Prince of Viana?
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  #1494  
Old 10-09-2012, 05:01 PM
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Do you think that Zara Phillips could one day be rewarded with a British honours title and become Dame Zara Phillips/Zara Tindall if she continues to be successful in her equestrian career?
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  #1495  
Old 10-09-2012, 05:07 PM
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Do you think that Zara Phillips could one day be rewarded with a British honours title and become Dame Zara Phillips/Zara Tindall if she continues to be successful in her equestrian career?
I don't see why not. Zara has already got OBE so if she wins a gold in Rio, she'll definitely be up for DBE.

Kelly Holmes got DBE for her two Olympic gold medals, I daresay most of London 2012 gold medallists will be similarly rewarded in this year's Honours List, so why not Zara? In fact, I wouldn't be surprised at all if her silver got recognized this year in some way. Not DBE, but CBE could well be on cards.
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  #1496  
Old 10-09-2012, 05:10 PM
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Do you think that Zara Phillips could one day be rewarded with a British honours title and become Dame Zara Phillips/Zara Tindall if she continues to be successful in her equestrian career?
Well she is already an MBE, so yes it is possible she could achieve success as an equestrian/charity leader/sports administrator or some other field and become a Dame or even a life peer at some point in her life. There is certainly nothing that would bar her being recognized for a great achievement or a career of high achievements.
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  #1497  
Old 10-10-2012, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
Which is why I didn't mention "Infante" among Felipe's titles.
I'm aware he was Infante Don Felipe de Borbon y Grecia from his birth until 1977, when he was formally conferred with the title of The Prince of Asturias.

One question though: did he actually lose the title of "Prince of Spain" (or Infante), or it's just not used seeing as he has now higher titles of The Prince of Asturias, The Prince of Girona and The Prince of Viana?
You wrote:
he goes as His Royal Highness the Most Serene Infante Don Felipe Juan Pablo Alfonso de Todos los Santos de Borbón y Grecia, Prince of Asturias, Prince of Girona, Prince of Viana, Duke of Montblanc, Count of Cervera and Lord of Balaguer.

I think he lost it. Ath his Wedding all his Titles where read but Infante was not among them
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  #1498  
Old 10-10-2012, 03:26 AM
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You wrote:
he goes as His Royal Highness the Most Serene Infante Don Felipe Juan Pablo Alfonso de Todos los Santos de Borbón y Grecia, Prince of Asturias, Prince of Girona, Prince of Viana, Duke of Montblanc, Count of Cervera and Lord of Balaguer.

I think he lost it. Ath his Wedding all his Titles where read but Infante was not among them
My apologies.
I concentrated on "Don" (which immediately precedes his name, and not Infante).

According to Wikipedia: "Rarely used, the Prince's style and title in full is: His Royal Highness the Most Serene Infante Don Felipe Juan Pablo Alfonso de Todos los Santos de Borbón y Grecia, Prince of Asturias, Prince of Girona, Prince of Viana, Duke of Montblanc, Count of Cervera and Lord of Balaguer."

At the same time, the page dedicated to Prince Felipe's titles and styles does not mention "Infante" among them. According to that article, his official title is "His Royal Highness Prince Felipe Juan Pablo Alfonso de Todos los Santos, Prince of Asturias," Prince of Girona, Prince of Viana, Duke of Montblanc, Count of Cervera and Lord ofBalaguer." It's not the full official title though, so I'd assume Infante is still somewhere there.

I checked the official website of the Spanish Royal Family (in English and Spanish) but there is pretty much no information on Felipe's titles bar the shortest official version. I still don't see why he would lose the title of Infante though.

Again, according to Wikipedia:
Quote:
In the Royal Family the style of Infante is reserved for the children of the Monarch and the heir apparent (Infantes by birth). The current Infante of Spain (by birth) is Infante Felipe, Prince of Asturias (note: as heir apparent to the Spanish throne, he is normally styled as HRH The Prince of Asturias).
Interestingly though, the Spanish version of the article directly contradicts the English version and states that the title "Infante" is reserved for the children of the Monarch and the heir apparent (but not the heir apparent himself who enjoys the higher title of a Prince - Prince of Asturias), and others whom the King will see fit to invest with the title. According to the Spanish version, the only Infante right now is Carlos of the Two Sicilies, Duke of Calabria.
Quote:
Por nacimiento, los hijos primogénitos de los reyes nacían infantes como sus hermanos, pero era en el momento de su designación como herederos por las Cortes cuando se convertían en Príncipes de Asturias.

From birth, the first-born sons of the Kings are Infantes as their brothers, but when they are appointed the Heir (apparent) by the Cortes, they become the Princes of Asturias
Go figure!
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  #1499  
Old 10-10-2012, 04:03 AM
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My apologies.
I concentrated on "Don" (which immediately precedes his name, and not Infante).

According to Wikipedia: "Rarely used, the Prince's style and title in full is: His Royal Highness the Most Serene Infante Don Felipe Juan Pablo Alfonso de Todos los Santos de Borbón y Grecia, Prince of Asturias, Prince of Girona, Prince of Viana, Duke of Montblanc, Count of Cervera and Lord of Balaguer."

At the same time, the page dedicated to Prince Felipe's titles and styles does not mention "Infante" among them. According to that article, his official title is "His Royal Highness Prince Felipe Juan Pablo Alfonso de Todos los Santos, Prince of Asturias," Prince of Girona, Prince of Viana, Duke of Montblanc, Count of Cervera and Lord ofBalaguer." It's not the full official title though, so I'd assume Infante is still somewhere there.

I checked the official website of the Spanish Royal Family (in English and Spanish) but there is pretty much no information on Felipe's titles bar the shortest official version. I still don't see why he would lose the title of Infante though.

Again, according to Wikipedia:
Interestingly though, the Spanish version of the article directly contradicts the English version and states that the title "Infante" is reserved for the children of the Monarch and the heir apparent (but not the heir apparent himself who enjoys the higher title of a Prince - Prince of Asturias), and others whom the King will see fit to invest with the title. According to the Spanish version, the only Infante right now is Carlos of the Two Sicilies, Duke of Calabria.


Go figure!
I think it is in the Royal Decree about Royal Titles from 1987 that cjildren of the King and the Prince of Asturias are /Infante/Infanta with the exception of the Prince of Asturias but can't find it online at the moment.
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  #1500  
Old 10-10-2012, 10:45 AM
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As for the question of Charles' style... He is formally His Royal Highness The Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, etc., etc. The most appropriate form of referring to him is IMO The Prince of Wales, simply because he is the current holder of that title. The same's with his sister, who is the only Princess Royal in the realm. Charles, Prince of Wales, Prince Charles, Prince Charles, Prince of Wales or The Prince of Wales, it's all appropriate forms of styling him because we all know who's that man. It is widely used in the media and among the people. But the Court uses The Prince of Wales, The Duchess of Cornwall, The Queen, The Duke of Kent (not Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall, Queen Elizabeth II, Prince Edward, Duke of Kent) styles only, with an exception for Charles, when reffered to as the Duke of Rothesay, his top Scottish peerage, after using his name and title of Prince (it is then The Prince Charles, Duke of Rothesay).

As for Marina's titles and style...did she lose her title and style in Greece and Denmark when married a foreign royal? Did she lost her status as a dynast of the Greek and Danish Royal Houses? She became a British subject and her style and titles in there were a question of local practice, that's obvious, but what about abroad and especially in her homeland and the home country of her Royal house?
The Queen's decision to allow her to be officially styled as Princess Marina (she was probably popularly known as a Princess in her own right already) did not formally recognise her foreign titles in the UK. The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester was born styled a Lady and was also given the same courtesy as her in law, a born Royal Princess Marina.
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