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  #1461  
Old 10-07-2012, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Warren View Post
She was called both, though not popularly. I have a special edition of the Illustrated London News on the death of George VI and Queen Mary is referred to by both titles as well as the usual "Queen Mary". There is an element of literary affectation where "Queen Mother" is used in a domestic sense while "Queen Dowager" serves to emphasise the remote and stately.

I have a book titled "Our Ambassador King - His Majesty King Edward VIII's Life of Devotion and Service as Prince of Wales" (1936) which is basically unreadable and may well have been picked up by the North Koreans and used as a template for the propaganda that endlessly extols the superhuman virtues of the Great Leader-Dear Leader-Supreme Leader. Sorry, I digress. In the book, Queen Mary is referred to as "Queen Mother" a couple of times and in "King Edward VIII - His Life and Reign" (1937) both "Queen Mother" and "Queen Dowager" appear, but more often than not Queen Mary is simply "Queen Mary".
LOVE your digression.
I haven't read the book and wasn't aware Mary has actually been referred to as Queen Mother or Queen Dowager somewhere, so thanks a lot for the heads up.
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  #1462  
Old 10-07-2012, 05:44 PM
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This discussion is really interesting and has made me think on just how beloved Queen Elizabeth, Queen Mother was. Growing up and hearing about her, I have to say that for the most part she was affectionately called the Queen Mum. This carried over into my family life where the matriarch of my mother's family was know by all as "Mum".
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  #1463  
Old 10-07-2012, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl
Dukes of the Blood are styled, most High, most Mighty, and Illustrious Princes...
Well, that is a very formal manner of address that is rarely used except in certain declarations and recital. The appropriate form of address is Your Grace for non-royal dukes, and Your Royal Highness for royal dukes. The same applies to their wives.

The only exception, of course, was for The Duchess of Windsor. She was addressed as Your Grace due to the 1937 Letters Patent of George VI limiting royal rank to The Duke alone.
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  #1464  
Old 10-07-2012, 11:31 PM
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In the list of princesses named after their mothers Artemisia listed
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post

- Mary, Princess Royal (daughter of George V)
Named after her mother, Mary of Teck.
The Princess Royal, Countess of Harewood was christened "Victoria Alexandra Alice Mary", but just as her oldest brother was known as "David" instead of "Edward" in the family, she was always called by the last of her names, and used "Mary" instead of "Victoria" when she entered public life - as did her mother, "Victoria Mary Augusta Louise Olga Pauline Claudine Agnes" who was always privately called "May".
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  #1465  
Old 10-07-2012, 11:44 PM
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Wow, that's a lot of names, I always thought she was just Victoria Mary!
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  #1466  
Old 10-08-2012, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by LauraS3514 View Post
...The Princess Royal, Countess of Harewood was christened "Victoria Alexandra Alice Mary"...
Thanks for pointing that out, Laura!
I've completely forgotten May was christened Victoria Alexandra Alice Mary because she has never really been called anything but Mary.
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  #1467  
Old 10-08-2012, 12:03 PM
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It's easy to forget that the Victoria and Albert's original plan was for all their female descendants to have Victoria somewhere in their name and Albert in the name for their male descendants. No matter what the parents thought! I believe Edward VII nipped that in the bud with either Louise or Maud but that was after he named his daughter Victoria and his son Albert Victor. Even George V is George Frederick Ernest Albert.
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  #1468  
Old 10-08-2012, 12:13 PM
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Edward VII didn't dare to oppose his formidable mother's wishes.
Both Maud and Louise had "Victoria" as one of their names: they were christened as Maud Charlotte Mary Victoria and Louise Victoria Alexandra Dagmar.
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  #1469  
Old 10-08-2012, 01:15 PM
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There is a page in Yvonne's Royalty, about how Queen Victoria interfered in the naming of each and every one of her descendants, especially her insistence on having Albert/ Victoria as one of the names..But even the Prince and Princess of Wales took her for a ride in this matter..It is understandable that younger generations will not have the patience to heed to the aged granny obsessed with breeding, lineage and naming..
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  #1470  
Old 10-08-2012, 02:24 PM
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Queen Victoria was certainly "obsessed" with the names of her descendants (and physical appearances, especially of babies, but she was no different to her contemporaries on that score). However, the same can't be said for her attitude to "breeding" and lineage. She was much more relaxed about such matters than her Continental cousins who initially sniggered at Princess May of Teck for being a Serene Highness from a morganatic branch of the Württembergs. They were equally unimpressed by Princess Louise's marriage to John Campbell, Marquess of Lorne, Victoria's championing of the (morganatic) Battenbergs including Prince Alexander's aborted romance with her granddaughter Victoria of Prussia, and Princess Beatrice's marriage to Alexander's brother Prince Henry.
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  #1471  
Old 10-08-2012, 02:35 PM
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Oh..all thats a lot of info for me..And I used the word 'obsessed' in a lighter vein..And I do think those were the only things she showed some real interest in during her post-Albert mourning perod..And of course that has made her 'grandmother of Europe'..And I hardly know about her contemporary European royals..
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  #1472  
Old 10-08-2012, 03:18 PM
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Queen Victoria had a multi-faceted personality and she cannot be pigeon-holed. The first decoration she awarded at the start of her reign was to the Jewish innkeeper of the seaside house where she had spent some holidays with her mother. That was a deliberate act. She became increasingly stubborn in rejecting advice to dispense with the Munshi because she objected to the racial and religious bigotry displayed by some courtiers (and members of her own family). She considered many of her German relations to be insufferable snobs in their attitudes to what was an "eligible" marriage. And so on.

In short, Queen Victoria cannot be portrayed in black and white.
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  #1473  
Old 10-08-2012, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Warren View Post

Queen Victoria had a multi-faceted personality and she cannot be pigeon-holed. The first decoration she awarded at the start of her reign was to the Jewish innkeeper of the seaside house where she had spent some holidays with her mother. That was a deliberate act. She became increasingly stubborn in rejecting advice to dispense with the Munshi because she objected to the racial and religious bigotry displayed by some courtiers (and members of her own family). She considered many of her German relations to be insufferable snobs in their attitudes to what was an "eligible" marriage. And so on.

In short, Queen Victoria cannot be portrayed in black and white.
.
Indeed, she did not take kindly to petty German princes telling the Doyenne of Sovereigns who was fit to marry into her family.
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  #1474  
Old 10-08-2012, 03:50 PM
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I like the fact that after Edward VII, many of the family chose to ignore Victoria's wish to have her name in her descendants (only Eugenie in the immediate line up have the name Victoria). It wasn't right of Victoria to ask that, nor was it right to say they had to have Albert in their name. I know it is only 1 name, and most of the Royals have 4 names, it was quite righteous of Victoria. It would appear that although she was a good Monarch, she was frightfully demanding of her family. Is is true that Alexandra lied to Victoria about when he babies were due, so Victoria was not there for any of the births, hence why her children were reportedly "premature"?

Regarding styles of members of the family, why was Angus Ogilvy a "Sir"? I understand he was the second son of an Earl, so he should have been The Hon. When he was made a "Sir"? Was it when he became a Knight Commander of the Royal Victorian Order or before?
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  #1475  
Old 10-08-2012, 04:10 PM
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Regarding styles of members of the family, why was Angus Ogilvy a "Sir"? I understand he was the second son of an Earl, so he should have been The Hon. When he was made a "Sir"? Was it when he became a Knight Commander of the Royal Victorian Order or before?
He became Sir when he became a Knight Commander of the Royal Victorian Order: Angus Ogilvy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  #1476  
Old 10-08-2012, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Molly2101 View Post
although she was a good Monarch, she was frightfully demanding of her family.
In my opinion, as her reign went on, Queen Victoria was quite self assured about what she could/should demand of anyone. To include the family names centuries into the future.

We simply cannot judge her by current standards, except to assuage our own values. Different times mean different values.
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  #1477  
Old 10-09-2012, 03:22 AM
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Foreign titles held by British subjects have no status in the UK and would require a royal licence to be officially recognized in the UK. No royal licence has been granted to a British subject to allow the use of a foreign title since 1932. Marina was a British subject.
Sorry to bring up this discussion again, but while writing a blog entry concerning the re-burial of Prince Paul and Princess Olga of Yugoslavia, I came across an interesting information which may have some relevance to Princess Marina's right or lack of thereof to be called "Princess" in Britain as well (not Princess of the United Kingdom but Princess of Greece and Denmark).

When Princess Olga, Marina's sister, married Prince Paul of Yugoslavia, her husband was a mere HH (His Highness), being a member of the cadet line of the Yugoslavian Royal Family. That changed with the new House Law of 1930, which made him a Royal Highness. Olga, however, bore the style of Royal Highness in her personal capacity and her official title was Her Royal Highness Princess Olga of Yugoslavia from the beginning.

To me, that shows that Princesses that marry foreign royals do not lose their birth styles and titles (unless they renounce them).
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  #1478  
Old 10-09-2012, 03:55 AM
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The difference is that Marina became an English subject. That included different rules then i.e. marrying into the Royal family of Yugoslavia and it has nothing to do with her sister keeping her HRH after marriage. However, foreign Princesses marrying into the British Royal family didn't loose their titles. It's a matter of styling.
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  #1479  
Old 10-09-2012, 12:09 PM
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Regarding naming of Prince Charles and Princess Anne..

I want a full-fledged explanation regarding this..If its already discussed, please lemme know..

See I believe Charles should be referred generally, (not officially) as Prince Charles, The Prince of Wales, right? And similarly, his sister is Princess Anne, The Princess Royal..

But Wikipedia refers them as Charles,Prince of Wales and Anne, Princess Royal..
It seems to me they are like some courtesy titles (like Sarah,Duchess of York). Prince Charles was born Prince Charles, and will be the same for his entire life (till accession).The title Prince of Wales came in middle.Why should we omit 'Prince' in his original name? Similarly for Anne..
But then they dont follow the same for others..The same Wiki refers Andrew as Prince Andrew, Duke of York, and Edward as Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex etc..(very rightly). The only discrimination is for Charles and Anne..

After giving a good thought, I thought of a possible reason..
Apparently, some wise bird at Wiki thought they are saving a lot of time and space by avoiding to repeat the word "Prince" or "Princess' twice..
So Charles and Anne are 'stripped' of their birth titles..and philip, Edward, Andrew, are all retained, as they dont have Prince/Princess in their titles..

I do not find this correct in anyway..Thye should be Prince Charles, The Prince of Wales and Princess Anne, The Princess Royal..
What do you guys say..(Just google PC/PA.. and see)

But what I found puzzling is..even on TRF..threads are named.."Anne, princess Royal:Current events", "Anne, Princess Royal:Old photos" etc..It should be Princess Anne, The Princess Royal..Please put forward ur views..

PS: I am not bothering about official styling/protocol/court circulars and all..
Its as simple as this:
When you call Philip, Andrew, Edward as
Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh
Prince Andrew, Duke of York etc.
why dont you call Prince Charles, Prince of Wales..Its as simple as that..
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  #1480  
Old 10-09-2012, 01:36 PM
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Wikipedia only does that to differentiate between the page for the current title holder and the page for the title itself. I don't think it's a big deal.
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