The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > British Royals

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #1461  
Old 10-07-2012, 03:40 PM
vkrish's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by padams2359 View Post
New topic. During the brief time that Elizabeth II was crowned, the Queen Mother was the Queen Dowager, and Queen Mary was still alive, what was Queen Mary's title?
She was just Queen Mary, during the reigns of both her husband,sons and granddaughter.. She was nowhere referred as Queen Mother. I have seen several videos on Youtube and even British Pathe. Even in George V and Mary: Royals who rescued monarchy..she was just referred to as Queen Mary while referring to her actions during Abdication crisis and her stay at Badminton during WWII.
Just now I googled "Queen Mary's death 1953" and "George VI death 1952"..and searched several pages..not even a single one mentioned her as Queen Mother/Grandmother.

The term Queen Mother was started immediately after Goerge VI died, and Princess Elizabeth's decision to keep her 1st name as regnal name.
One is Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother
Other is Queen Elizabeth II
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #1462  
Old 10-07-2012, 03:55 PM
vkrish's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Where can I view the actual LP that created Prince William , Duke of Cambridge?
As Lumutqueen said, just an announcement has been made..but Wiki gives a complete proforma of how the LP of creating a Duke maybe..


ELIZABETH THE SECOND by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Our other Realms and Territories Queen Head of the Commonwealth Defender of the Faith To all Lords Spiritual and Temporal and all other Our Subjects whatsoever to whom these Presents shall come Greeting Know Ye that We of Our especial grace certain knowledge and mere motion do by these Presents advance create and prefer Our:
"Our right trusty and right entirely beloved grandson Prince William of Wales KG"to the state degree style dignity title and honour of
DUKE OF CAMBRIDGE. And for Us Our heirs and successors do appoint give and grant unto him the said name state degree style dignity title and honour of Duke of and by these Presents do dignify invest and ennoble him by girding him with a sword and putting a cap of honour and a coronet of gold on his head and by giving into his hand a rod of gold [or, if the grant is to a woman, "dignify invest and really ennoble her with such name state degree title and honour of Duchess of "] to have and to hold the said name state degree style dignity title and honour of Duke of unto him and the heirs male of his body lawfully begotten and to be begotten. Willing and by these Presents granting for Us Our heirs and successors that he and his heirs male aforesaid and every of them successively may have hold and possess a seat place and voice in the Parliaments and Public Assemblies and Councils of Us Our heirs and successors within Our United Kingdom amongst the Dukes And also that he and his heirs male aforesaid successively may enjoy and use all the rights privileges pre-eminences immunities and advantages to the degree of a Duke duly and of right belonging which Dukes of Our United Kingdom have heretofore used and enjoyed or as they do at present use and enjoy.
In Witness whereof We have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent. WITNESS Ourself at Westminster the day of ?? April in the year 2011 of Our Reign”


Tried to fill as much as I can... Not sure bout date..same or a few days earlier..
Similar but slightly different for creating Earl and Baron..
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #1463  
Old 10-07-2012, 04:03 PM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,424
The reason why Queen Mary was never called Queen Mother or Queen Dowager or, for that matter, Queen Consort is because those additions are not used on daily basis. A Queen Consort or Queen Regnant is referred to as Her Majesty The Queen, while a Queen Dowager or Queen Mother - Her Majesty Queen Name.

The sole reason why Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother actually did use the addition is because she shared the same name with her daughter; to avoid any confusion between two Queens Elizabeth, the mother of Elizabeth II was referred to as Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother.

However, Queen Mary was indeed a Queen Consort during the reign of George V, a Queen Mother during the reigns of Edward VIII and George VI, and a Queen Dowager during the reign of Elizabeth II.


Just to clarify what is the distinction between different types of Queens:

- Queen Regnant is a female Sovereign who inherited the Throne from the previous Monarch. She reigns in her own right. Elizabeth II is a Queen Regnant.
- Queen Consort is the wife of a Sovereign. She does not reign and was not next in the Line of Succession. The Duchesses of Cornwall and Cambridge will be Queens Consort.
- Queen Mother is a widowed Queen Consort who is the mother of the current Monarch. Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother was a Queen Mother during the reign of Elizabeth II. Queen Mary was a Queen Mother during the reigns of Edward VIII and George VI, and Queen Alexandra was a Queen Mother during the reign of George V.
- Queen Dowager is a widowed Queen Consort who is not the mother of the current Monarch. Upon Elizabeth II's accession to the Throne, Queen Mary ceased to be Queen Mother (as she was only grandmother, not mother, of the current Monarch) and became Queen Dowager.

Those titles are automatic but almost never used, Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother being one of the few exceptions.
Reply With Quote
  #1464  
Old 10-07-2012, 04:10 PM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Where can I view the actual LP that created Prince William , Duke of Cambridge?
As others have noted, the original Letters Patent are not in public domain. However, all announcements on new titles (whether for members of the Royal Family, non-royal hereditary peerages or life peerages) are made through the Crown Office, House of Lords.

The Duke of Cambridge title announcement read:
Quote:
Crown Office
House of Lords, London SW1A 0PW
26 May 2011

In accordance with the direction of HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN Letters
Patent have passed the Great Seal of the Realm dated the 26 May
2011 granting unto Her Majesty’s Grandson, His Royal Highness
Prince William Arthur Philip Louis of Wales, K.G., and the heirs male
of his body lawfully begotten the dignities of Baron Carrickfergus,
Earl of Strathearn, and Duke of Cambridge.

C I P Denyer
Deputy Clerk of the Crown
Reply With Quote
  #1465  
Old 10-07-2012, 04:21 PM
vkrish's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 848
Ok and since this is probably the first time in British history that the Queen Dowager and Queen Regnant have same name, this term has come to prominence for the first time..

Now I started wondering isnt it weird to name her after mother, grandmother, great-granmother..in a row..with mother's as 1st name..as if there is no other name..Do you kno any1 else who have their 1st names same as their mother's first? Oh the Victorias..lol pretty weird actually..lol..no offence..
Reply With Quote
  #1466  
Old 10-07-2012, 04:29 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 1,169
Dukes of the Blood are styled, most High, most Mighty, and Illustrious Princes. Non-Royal Dukes are usually styled by the King or Queen our Right Trusty and Right entirely Beloved Cousin, and when of the Privy Council, then with the Addition of Counsellors. I should add non-royal Dukes are also styled Your Grace; and styled, Most High, Potent, and Noble Prince in formal writing and address.

If William is styled most High, most Mighty, and Illustrious Prince, would Catherine be styled most High, most Mighty, and Illustrious Princess?
Reply With Quote
  #1467  
Old 10-07-2012, 04:51 PM
Warren's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 15,498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
The reason why Queen Mary was never called Queen Mother or Queen Dowager....
She was called both, though not popularly. I have a special edition of the Illustrated London News on the death of George VI and Queen Mary is referred to by both titles as well as the usual "Queen Mary". There is an element of literary affectation where "Queen Mother" is used in a domestic sense while "Queen Dowager" serves to emphasise the remote and stately.

I have a book titled "Our Ambassador King - His Majesty King Edward VIII's Life of Devotion and Service as Prince of Wales" (1936) which is basically unreadable and may well have been picked up by the North Koreans and used as a template for the propaganda that endlessly extols the superhuman virtues of the Great Leader-Dear Leader-Supreme Leader. Sorry, I digress. In the book, Queen Mary is referred to as "Queen Mother" a couple of times and in "King Edward VIII - His Life and Reign" (1937) both "Queen Mother" and "Queen Dowager" appear, but more often than not Queen Mary is simply "Queen Mary".
__________________
Seeking information? Check out the extensive Royal A-Z
Reply With Quote
  #1468  
Old 10-07-2012, 04:52 PM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,424
Quote:
Originally Posted by vkrish View Post
Ok and since this is probably the first time in British history that the Queen Dowager and Queen Regnant have same name, this term has come to prominence for the first time..
That is my undestanding.

Quote:
Now I started wondering isnt it weird to name her after mother, grandmother, great-granmother..in a row..with mother's as 1st name..as if there is no other name..Do you kno any1 else who have their 1st names same as their mother's first? pretty weird actually..lol..no offence..no lesse majeste..
Remember at the time Elizabeth II was born, it was not expected she would ever ascend to the Throne. Firstly, because the Duke and Duchess of York might have still have sons (who would be ahead of Elizabeth in the Line of Succession), and secondly because the Duke of York had an elder brother who was expected to marry and produce heirs to the throne.
It was not at all unusual at the time for children to share their parents' first names and since no one could predict that in future there could be a case of two Queens Elizabeth, there was no reason why the little Princess couldn't be named after her mother.

As for how usual it was, as I said, it was not at all unusual. In fact, many English and British Princesses had been named after their mothers.
Here are but a few of them:

- Princess Matilda (daughter of William the Conqueror)
Named after her mother, Matilda of Flanders.

- Eleanor of England, Queen of Castile (daughter of Henry II of England)
Named after her mother, Eleanor of Aquitaine. The name was very new and might have even originated with Eleanor of Aquitaine who was named after her own mother (her mother's name was Auenor and the little girl was named Alienor, Latin for "the other Aenor"). Incidentally, Eleanor of England herself had a daughter called Eleanor (or rather, Leonor) who went on to (breifly) become Queen of Aragon through her marriage to James I of Aragon.

- Isabella of England (daughter of John, King of England)
Named after Isabella of Angouleme. Isabella of Angouleme had another daughter named Isabella (Isabella de Lusignan) from her marriage to Hugh X de Lusignan.

- Eleanor of England (daughter of Edward I of England)
Named after her mother, Eleanor of Castile.

- Elizabeth of York (daughter of Edward IV of England)
Named after her mother, Elizabeth Woodville.

- Elizabeth Tudor (daughter of Henry VII of England)
Named after her mother, Elizabeth of York.

- Henrietta of England, Duchess of Orleans (daughter of Charles I of England)
Named after her mother, Henrietta Marie of France.

- Princess Caroline of Great Britain (daughter of George II)
Named after her mother, Caroline of Ansbach.

- Charlotte, Princess Royal (daughter of George III)
Named after her mother, Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz.

- Victoria, Princess Royal (daughter of Queen Victoria)
Named after her mother, Queen Victoria.

- Mary, Princess Royal (daughter of George V)
Named after her mother, Mary of Teck.


In some cases, the Princesses named after their mothers were first-born children (such as Victoria, Princess Royal) and, unlike the present Queen, had very real chances of one day ascending to the Throne.
Reply With Quote
  #1469  
Old 10-07-2012, 04:54 PM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren View Post
She was called both, though not popularly. I have a special edition of the Illustrated London News on the death of George VI and Queen Mary is referred to by both titles as well as the usual "Queen Mary". There is an element of literary affectation where "Queen Mother" is used in a domestic sense while "Queen Dowager" serves to emphasise the remote and stately.

I have a book titled "Our Ambassador King - His Majesty King Edward VIII's Life of Devotion and Service as Prince of Wales" (1936) which is basically unreadable and may well have been picked up by the North Koreans and used as a template for the propaganda that endlessly extols the superhuman virtues of the Great Leader-Dear Leader-Supreme Leader. Sorry, I digress. In the book, Queen Mary is referred to as "Queen Mother" a couple of times and in "King Edward VIII - His Life and Reign" (1937) both "Queen Mother" and "Queen Dowager" appear, but more often than not Queen Mary is simply "Queen Mary".
LOVE your digression.
I haven't read the book and wasn't aware Mary has actually been referred to as Queen Mother or Queen Dowager somewhere, so thanks a lot for the heads up.
Reply With Quote
  #1470  
Old 10-07-2012, 05:44 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 4,607
This discussion is really interesting and has made me think on just how beloved Queen Elizabeth, Queen Mother was. Growing up and hearing about her, I have to say that for the most part she was affectionately called the Queen Mum. This carried over into my family life where the matriarch of my mother's family was know by all as "Mum".
__________________
“We live in a world where we have to hide to make love, while violence is practiced in broad daylight.”
~~~ John Lennon ~~~
Reply With Quote
  #1471  
Old 10-07-2012, 06:17 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl
Dukes of the Blood are styled, most High, most Mighty, and Illustrious Princes...
Well, that is a very formal manner of address that is rarely used except in certain declarations and recital. The appropriate form of address is Your Grace for non-royal dukes, and Your Royal Highness for royal dukes. The same applies to their wives.

The only exception, of course, was for The Duchess of Windsor. She was addressed as Your Grace due to the 1937 Letters Patent of George VI limiting royal rank to The Duke alone.
Reply With Quote
  #1472  
Old 10-07-2012, 11:31 PM
LauraS3514's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: San Jose, CA, United States
Posts: 261
In the list of princesses named after their mothers Artemisia listed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post

- Mary, Princess Royal (daughter of George V)
Named after her mother, Mary of Teck.
The Princess Royal, Countess of Harewood was christened "Victoria Alexandra Alice Mary", but just as her oldest brother was known as "David" instead of "Edward" in the family, she was always called by the last of her names, and used "Mary" instead of "Victoria" when she entered public life - as did her mother, "Victoria Mary Augusta Louise Olga Pauline Claudine Agnes" who was always privately called "May".
Reply With Quote
  #1473  
Old 10-07-2012, 11:44 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Hamilton, Canada
Posts: 485
Wow, that's a lot of names, I always thought she was just Victoria Mary!
Reply With Quote
  #1474  
Old 10-08-2012, 10:31 AM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,424
Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraS3514 View Post
...The Princess Royal, Countess of Harewood was christened "Victoria Alexandra Alice Mary"...
Thanks for pointing that out, Laura!
I've completely forgotten May was christened Victoria Alexandra Alice Mary because she has never really been called anything but Mary.
Reply With Quote
  #1475  
Old 10-08-2012, 12:03 PM
Zonk's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere in, United States
Posts: 10,662
It's easy to forget that the Victoria and Albert's original plan was for all their female descendants to have Victoria somewhere in their name and Albert in the name for their male descendants. No matter what the parents thought! I believe Edward VII nipped that in the bud with either Louise or Maud but that was after he named his daughter Victoria and his son Albert Victor. Even George V is George Frederick Ernest Albert.
__________________
.

Reply With Quote
  #1476  
Old 10-08-2012, 12:13 PM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,424
Edward VII didn't dare to oppose his formidable mother's wishes.
Both Maud and Louise had "Victoria" as one of their names: they were christened as Maud Charlotte Mary Victoria and Louise Victoria Alexandra Dagmar.
Reply With Quote
  #1477  
Old 10-08-2012, 01:15 PM
vkrish's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 848
There is a page in Yvonne's Royalty, about how Queen Victoria interfered in the naming of each and every one of her descendants, especially her insistence on having Albert/ Victoria as one of the names..But even the Prince and Princess of Wales took her for a ride in this matter..It is understandable that younger generations will not have the patience to heed to the aged granny obsessed with breeding, lineage and naming..
Reply With Quote
  #1478  
Old 10-08-2012, 02:24 PM
Warren's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 15,498

Queen Victoria was certainly "obsessed" with the names of her descendants (and physical appearances, especially of babies, but she was no different to her contemporaries on that score). However, the same can't be said for her attitude to "breeding" and lineage. She was much more relaxed about such matters than her Continental cousins who initially sniggered at Princess May of Teck for being a Serene Highness from a morganatic branch of the Württembergs. They were equally unimpressed by Princess Louise's marriage to John Campbell, Marquess of Lorne, Victoria's championing of the (morganatic) Battenbergs including Prince Alexander's aborted romance with her granddaughter Victoria of Prussia, and Princess Beatrice's marriage to Alexander's brother Prince Henry.
__________________
Seeking information? Check out the extensive Royal A-Z
Reply With Quote
  #1479  
Old 10-08-2012, 02:35 PM
vkrish's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 848
Oh..all thats a lot of info for me..And I used the word 'obsessed' in a lighter vein..And I do think those were the only things she showed some real interest in during her post-Albert mourning perod..And of course that has made her 'grandmother of Europe'..And I hardly know about her contemporary European royals..
Reply With Quote
  #1480  
Old 10-08-2012, 03:18 PM
Warren's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 15,498

Queen Victoria had a multi-faceted personality and she cannot be pigeon-holed. The first decoration she awarded at the start of her reign was to the Jewish innkeeper of the seaside house where she had spent some holidays with her mother. That was a deliberate act. She became increasingly stubborn in rejecting advice to dispense with the Munshi because she objected to the racial and religious bigotry displayed by some courtiers (and members of her own family). She considered many of her German relations to be insufferable snobs in their attitudes to what was an "eligible" marriage. And so on.

In short, Queen Victoria cannot be portrayed in black and white.
.
__________________

__________________
Seeking information? Check out the extensive Royal A-Z
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
british royal family, consort, spouse, styles and titles


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children Aussie Princess Prince Harry and Prince William 1115 01-14-2015 03:50 PM
Questions About [non-British] Styles and Titles Lord Sosnowitz Royal Ceremony and Protocol 729 10-09-2014 04:24 PM
Diana's Styles and Titles florawindsor Diana, Princess of Wales (1961-1997) 573 11-14-2013 11:59 AM
Styles and Titles Nahla10 Ruling Family of Dubai 36 08-08-2013 12:05 PM
Abdication Beatrix and Inauguration WA: Titles, Names, Succession, Precedence Princess Robijn King Willem-Alexander and Queen Máxima and family 67 05-24-2013 03:14 PM




Popular Tags
abdication belgium best outfit brussels carl philip chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events death fashion fashion poll funeral infanta leonor infanta sofia jordan king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander letizia margrethe ii maxima nobility official visit oranje-nassau photo shoot picture of the week poland president gauck president hollande president komorowski prince carl philip prince daniel prince henrik prince of wales princess charlene princess claire princess madeleine princess mary princess mette-marit princess of asturias queen fabiola queen letizia queen letizia daytime fashion queen letizia fashion queen letizia style queen mathilde queen maxima queen maxima fashion queen maxima style queen paola queen rania queen silvia queen sonja royal fashion sofia hellqvist spain state visit stockholm sweden the hague visit wedding willem-alexander


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:39 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2015
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]