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  #1441  
Old 10-05-2012, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HRHThePrince
Did King George VI have a reason for withholding the title of a British prince from Philip? He renounced his princely Greek title.
He believed Philip should be a royal Duke, but not a Prince of the UK, because he wanted The Princess Elizabeth to have precedence as the heiress presumptive. The Queen rectified this in 1957, even though Philip didn't particularly care about it.
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  #1442  
Old 10-05-2012, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by HRHThePrince View Post
So once it was clarified why didn't George VI issue new letters patent correcting his mistake. It seems it was intentional. I read in a book that Earl Mountbatten asked George to create Philip a prince & he refused.... a refusal he also gave when Philip wanted to first court Elizabeth. Again, courtiers did not think he was good enough for her. Whose to say he probably withheld the title of Prince of the UK because he wasn't sure if the marriage would last?
I doubt there was even the thought in his head that the marriage wouldn't last. There was absolutely no way the Queen would have divorced, even if the marriage was unhappy, which thankfully it isn't.

It's probably more that there was no precedent for bestowing that title upon him.
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  #1443  
Old 10-05-2012, 11:14 PM
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She would've had precedence over Philip regardless as she was the heiress presumptive to the British Throne. Though Philip was an extended member of the Royal Family by blood, he was only an immediate member through marriage. Gentlemen whether a prince or not who marry British princesses do not gain precedence through their wives. Their precedence is decided by will of the Sovereign under a Royal Warrant of Precedence.
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  #1444  
Old 10-06-2012, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Prince Philip was already a British subject because of the Sophia Naturalization Act. Many people are of the belief that Philip did not give up his Greek and Danish titles,because there is no paper trail to prove he did.
Prince Philip, his children and male-line grandchildren are Princes/Princesses of Greece and Denmark, in addition to any other titles they may hold.
If I'm wrong then someone show me proof he renounced his Danish and Greeks titles.

There is no paper trail as such although supposedly there is a letter from Philip to the King of Greece to which the King agreed with Philip renouncing his Greek and Danish titles.

However is and his descendents ceased to be Princes/Princess of Denmark under the 1953 Danish constitution which limited that right to descendents of a later King than Christian IX and they also ceased to be Princes of Greece when the Greeks became a republic.
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  #1445  
Old 10-06-2012, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
There is no paper trail as such although supposedly there is a letter from Philip to the King of Greece to which the King agreed with Philip renouncing his Greek and Danish titles.

However is and his descendents ceased to be Princes/Princess of Denmark under the 1953 Danish constitution which limited that right to descendents of a later King than Christian IX and they also ceased to be Princes of Greece when the Greeks became a republic.
I stand corrected. Did the 1953 Danish Constitution limit succession to the Danish throne or the right to be called Princes of Greece and Denmark?
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  #1446  
Old 10-06-2012, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
By LP of 1947 Lt Sir Philip Mountbatten was granted the style of Royal Highness, and he was created Duke of Edinburgh the following day. He was in the anomalous position of being a Royal Highness but not a Prince, although the normal association of the two styles led to some confusion on the matter. Garter stated that "I believe he remains a Prince of Greece and Denmark though naturalized here." (Garter, 19 Dec 1947 LC0 6/3677).
And what about this statement from Garter where he states "I believe he remains a Prince of Greece and Denmark though naturalized here." although I guess that is before 1953.
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  #1447  
Old 10-06-2012, 07:39 AM
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You truly know your styles and titles Iluvbertie
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  #1448  
Old 10-06-2012, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
I stand corrected. Did the 1953 Danish Constitution limit succession to the Danish throne or the right to be called Princes of Greece and Denmark?
Basically Prince of Greece and Denmark is a Greek title so changes in Denmark have no effect on its usage. The 1953 Constitution did remove the Greeks from succession to the Danish throne. Even the children of Queen Anne Marie do not have succession rights in Denmark.
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  #1449  
Old 10-06-2012, 09:23 PM
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New topic. During the brief time that Elizabeth II was crowned, the Queen Mother was the Queen Dowager, and Queen Mary was still alive, what was Queen Mary's title?
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  #1450  
Old 10-06-2012, 09:29 PM
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Her Majesty Queen Mary.

The Queen Mother was Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Dowager/The Queen Mother or both.

The Queen was simply Her Majesty The Queen.
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  #1451  
Old 10-07-2012, 03:02 PM
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Where can I view the actual LP that created Prince William , Duke of Cambridge?
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  #1452  
Old 10-07-2012, 03:24 PM
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I don't think you can; this is the only thing I found with the 'announcement' Titles announced for Prince William and Catherine Middleton
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  #1453  
Old 10-07-2012, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by padams2359 View Post
New topic. During the brief time that Elizabeth II was crowned, the Queen Mother was the Queen Dowager, and Queen Mary was still alive, what was Queen Mary's title?
She was just Queen Mary, during the reigns of both her husband,sons and granddaughter.. She was nowhere referred as Queen Mother. I have seen several videos on Youtube and even British Pathe. Even in George V and Mary: Royals who rescued monarchy..she was just referred to as Queen Mary while referring to her actions during Abdication crisis and her stay at Badminton during WWII.
Just now I googled "Queen Mary's death 1953" and "George VI death 1952"..and searched several pages..not even a single one mentioned her as Queen Mother/Grandmother.

The term Queen Mother was started immediately after Goerge VI died, and Princess Elizabeth's decision to keep her 1st name as regnal name.
One is Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother
Other is Queen Elizabeth II
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  #1454  
Old 10-07-2012, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Where can I view the actual LP that created Prince William , Duke of Cambridge?
As Lumutqueen said, just an announcement has been made..but Wiki gives a complete proforma of how the LP of creating a Duke maybe..


ELIZABETH THE SECOND by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Our other Realms and Territories Queen Head of the Commonwealth Defender of the Faith To all Lords Spiritual and Temporal and all other Our Subjects whatsoever to whom these Presents shall come Greeting Know Ye that We of Our especial grace certain knowledge and mere motion do by these Presents advance create and prefer Our:
"Our right trusty and right entirely beloved grandson Prince William of Wales KG"to the state degree style dignity title and honour of
DUKE OF CAMBRIDGE. And for Us Our heirs and successors do appoint give and grant unto him the said name state degree style dignity title and honour of Duke of and by these Presents do dignify invest and ennoble him by girding him with a sword and putting a cap of honour and a coronet of gold on his head and by giving into his hand a rod of gold [or, if the grant is to a woman, "dignify invest and really ennoble her with such name state degree title and honour of Duchess of "] to have and to hold the said name state degree style dignity title and honour of Duke of unto him and the heirs male of his body lawfully begotten and to be begotten. Willing and by these Presents granting for Us Our heirs and successors that he and his heirs male aforesaid and every of them successively may have hold and possess a seat place and voice in the Parliaments and Public Assemblies and Councils of Us Our heirs and successors within Our United Kingdom amongst the Dukes And also that he and his heirs male aforesaid successively may enjoy and use all the rights privileges pre-eminences immunities and advantages to the degree of a Duke duly and of right belonging which Dukes of Our United Kingdom have heretofore used and enjoyed or as they do at present use and enjoy.
In Witness whereof We have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent. WITNESS Ourself at Westminster the day of ?? April in the year 2011 of Our Reign”


Tried to fill as much as I can... Not sure bout date..same or a few days earlier..
Similar but slightly different for creating Earl and Baron..
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  #1455  
Old 10-07-2012, 04:03 PM
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The reason why Queen Mary was never called Queen Mother or Queen Dowager or, for that matter, Queen Consort is because those additions are not used on daily basis. A Queen Consort or Queen Regnant is referred to as Her Majesty The Queen, while a Queen Dowager or Queen Mother - Her Majesty Queen Name.

The sole reason why Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother actually did use the addition is because she shared the same name with her daughter; to avoid any confusion between two Queens Elizabeth, the mother of Elizabeth II was referred to as Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother.

However, Queen Mary was indeed a Queen Consort during the reign of George V, a Queen Mother during the reigns of Edward VIII and George VI, and a Queen Dowager during the reign of Elizabeth II.


Just to clarify what is the distinction between different types of Queens:

- Queen Regnant is a female Sovereign who inherited the Throne from the previous Monarch. She reigns in her own right. Elizabeth II is a Queen Regnant.
- Queen Consort is the wife of a Sovereign. She does not reign and was not next in the Line of Succession. The Duchesses of Cornwall and Cambridge will be Queens Consort.
- Queen Mother is a widowed Queen Consort who is the mother of the current Monarch. Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother was a Queen Mother during the reign of Elizabeth II. Queen Mary was a Queen Mother during the reigns of Edward VIII and George VI, and Queen Alexandra was a Queen Mother during the reign of George V.
- Queen Dowager is a widowed Queen Consort who is not the mother of the current Monarch. Upon Elizabeth II's accession to the Throne, Queen Mary ceased to be Queen Mother (as she was only grandmother, not mother, of the current Monarch) and became Queen Dowager.

Those titles are automatic but almost never used, Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother being one of the few exceptions.
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  #1456  
Old 10-07-2012, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Where can I view the actual LP that created Prince William , Duke of Cambridge?
As others have noted, the original Letters Patent are not in public domain. However, all announcements on new titles (whether for members of the Royal Family, non-royal hereditary peerages or life peerages) are made through the Crown Office, House of Lords.

The Duke of Cambridge title announcement read:
Quote:
Crown Office
House of Lords, London SW1A 0PW
26 May 2011

In accordance with the direction of HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN Letters
Patent have passed the Great Seal of the Realm dated the 26 May
2011 granting unto Her Majesty’s Grandson, His Royal Highness
Prince William Arthur Philip Louis of Wales, K.G., and the heirs male
of his body lawfully begotten the dignities of Baron Carrickfergus,
Earl of Strathearn, and Duke of Cambridge.

C I P Denyer
Deputy Clerk of the Crown
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  #1457  
Old 10-07-2012, 04:21 PM
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Ok and since this is probably the first time in British history that the Queen Dowager and Queen Regnant have same name, this term has come to prominence for the first time..

Now I started wondering isnt it weird to name her after mother, grandmother, great-granmother..in a row..with mother's as 1st name..as if there is no other name..Do you kno any1 else who have their 1st names same as their mother's first? Oh the Victorias..lol pretty weird actually..lol..no offence..
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  #1458  
Old 10-07-2012, 04:29 PM
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Dukes of the Blood are styled, most High, most Mighty, and Illustrious Princes. Non-Royal Dukes are usually styled by the King or Queen our Right Trusty and Right entirely Beloved Cousin, and when of the Privy Council, then with the Addition of Counsellors. I should add non-royal Dukes are also styled Your Grace; and styled, Most High, Potent, and Noble Prince in formal writing and address.

If William is styled most High, most Mighty, and Illustrious Prince, would Catherine be styled most High, most Mighty, and Illustrious Princess?
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  #1459  
Old 10-07-2012, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
The reason why Queen Mary was never called Queen Mother or Queen Dowager....
She was called both, though not popularly. I have a special edition of the Illustrated London News on the death of George VI and Queen Mary is referred to by both titles as well as the usual "Queen Mary". There is an element of literary affectation where "Queen Mother" is used in a domestic sense while "Queen Dowager" serves to emphasise the remote and stately.

I have a book titled "Our Ambassador King - His Majesty King Edward VIII's Life of Devotion and Service as Prince of Wales" (1936) which is basically unreadable and may well have been picked up by the North Koreans and used as a template for the propaganda that endlessly extols the superhuman virtues of the Great Leader-Dear Leader-Supreme Leader. Sorry, I digress. In the book, Queen Mary is referred to as "Queen Mother" a couple of times and in "King Edward VIII - His Life and Reign" (1937) both "Queen Mother" and "Queen Dowager" appear, but more often than not Queen Mary is simply "Queen Mary".
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  #1460  
Old 10-07-2012, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vkrish View Post
Ok and since this is probably the first time in British history that the Queen Dowager and Queen Regnant have same name, this term has come to prominence for the first time..
That is my undestanding.

Quote:
Now I started wondering isnt it weird to name her after mother, grandmother, great-granmother..in a row..with mother's as 1st name..as if there is no other name..Do you kno any1 else who have their 1st names same as their mother's first? pretty weird actually..lol..no offence..no lesse majeste..
Remember at the time Elizabeth II was born, it was not expected she would ever ascend to the Throne. Firstly, because the Duke and Duchess of York might have still have sons (who would be ahead of Elizabeth in the Line of Succession), and secondly because the Duke of York had an elder brother who was expected to marry and produce heirs to the throne.
It was not at all unusual at the time for children to share their parents' first names and since no one could predict that in future there could be a case of two Queens Elizabeth, there was no reason why the little Princess couldn't be named after her mother.

As for how usual it was, as I said, it was not at all unusual. In fact, many English and British Princesses had been named after their mothers.
Here are but a few of them:

- Princess Matilda (daughter of William the Conqueror)
Named after her mother, Matilda of Flanders.

- Eleanor of England, Queen of Castile (daughter of Henry II of England)
Named after her mother, Eleanor of Aquitaine. The name was very new and might have even originated with Eleanor of Aquitaine who was named after her own mother (her mother's name was Auenor and the little girl was named Alienor, Latin for "the other Aenor"). Incidentally, Eleanor of England herself had a daughter called Eleanor (or rather, Leonor) who went on to (breifly) become Queen of Aragon through her marriage to James I of Aragon.

- Isabella of England (daughter of John, King of England)
Named after Isabella of Angouleme. Isabella of Angouleme had another daughter named Isabella (Isabella de Lusignan) from her marriage to Hugh X de Lusignan.

- Eleanor of England (daughter of Edward I of England)
Named after her mother, Eleanor of Castile.

- Elizabeth of York (daughter of Edward IV of England)
Named after her mother, Elizabeth Woodville.

- Elizabeth Tudor (daughter of Henry VII of England)
Named after her mother, Elizabeth of York.

- Henrietta of England, Duchess of Orleans (daughter of Charles I of England)
Named after her mother, Henrietta Marie of France.

- Princess Caroline of Great Britain (daughter of George II)
Named after her mother, Caroline of Ansbach.

- Charlotte, Princess Royal (daughter of George III)
Named after her mother, Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz.

- Victoria, Princess Royal (daughter of Queen Victoria)
Named after her mother, Queen Victoria.

- Mary, Princess Royal (daughter of George V)
Named after her mother, Mary of Teck.


In some cases, the Princesses named after their mothers were first-born children (such as Victoria, Princess Royal) and, unlike the present Queen, had very real chances of one day ascending to the Throne.
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