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  #1401  
Old 10-04-2012, 03:26 AM
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As I understand it when the title Princess Royal is given to a oldest daughter the title is hers as long as she lives, while the title prince(ss) of Wales merges with the throne when the person carrying the title becomes monarch. Unless there are changes made regarding the title Princess Royal, a female monarch who has been given that title before becoming monarch will not be able to give a non-firstborn daughter or granddaughter the title Princess Royal.
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  #1402  
Old 10-04-2012, 05:36 AM
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I don't think that either Andrew or Edward will get the Thistle unless the Queen gives it to them as I don't see Charles giving any honours to any of his siblings. I like Charles but it is clear that he isn't that close to his brothers and really I don't see him wanting to give them any honours at all. I can see him wanting them to be phased out of the public life altogether and only appear at really big family affairs, although he will ensure that they won't be left with no income or anything like that.

I don't even think they will continue going to Sandringham for Christmas once Charles is King.
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  #1403  
Old 10-04-2012, 05:59 AM
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My gut feeling is William will be invested during HM reign, sooner rather than later. as ministerial advice is required, David Cameroon would most certainly approve. I get the feeling the Duke of York and the Earl of Wessex will not be invested a KTs

The Monarchy Today > Queen and public > Honours > Order of the Bath
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  #1404  
Old 10-04-2012, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by PssKatie View Post
I don't believe William is able to receive the Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath. In order to receive this honour a person must be an Air Vice Marshal in the RAF. William, as a Flight Lieutenant, isn't eligible for any honours within the Bath, as Companions must hold at least the rank of Squadron Leader in the RAF.
The Bath is not only awarded for military service. It is also awarded for civil service. Rules for awarding to the royals don't necessarily follow the rules for mere mortals. When Charles became Grand Master of the order and GCB he was still a young naval Lieutenant while Vice Admiral Sir Tim Laurence is a CB. Robert Fellows is a KCB as a result of his being a former Private Secretary to The Queen.
I just cannot see any necessity to load more honours on William, at least before he becomes the heir, unless he were to succeed one of his relatives as Grand Master of one of the orders of knighthood.
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  #1405  
Old 10-04-2012, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
The Bath is not only awarded for military service. It is also awarded for civil service. Rules for awarding to the royals don't necessarily follow the rules for mere mortals. When Charles became Grand Master of the order and GCB he was still a young naval Lieutenant while Vice Admiral Sir Tim Laurence is a CB. Robert Fellows is a KCB as a result of his being a former Private Secretary to The Queen.
I just cannot see any necessity to load more honours on William, at least before he becomes the heir, unless he were to succeed one of his relatives as Grand Master of one of the orders of knighthood.
I agree with you here on this point. I would really doubt that there will be any more honors bestowed on William until at least he is a full time working royal for a few years at least. If not then, perhaps after Charles becomes King.
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  #1406  
Old 10-04-2012, 03:16 PM
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What about the Order of Merit? When did Charles receive his OM?
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  #1407  
Old 10-04-2012, 03:27 PM
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I think Prince Charles is only concerned with keeping funds in his pocket... and that is the real reason of why he wants a slimmed down Royal Family. The less duties performed by royals the less he has to repay the Treasury. And I believe in Williams reign Princesses Beatrice & Eugenie will perform royal duties. Just think about it... the Gloucesters & Kents are getting older. William & Harry's children won't even be of age... there gonna need a pair of extra hands. And like Prince Andrew was saying, they're the only Princesses of their generation. I don't see the reason of why Charles wants to exclude them...
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  #1408  
Old 10-04-2012, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
I don't think that either Andrew or Edward will get the Thistle unless the Queen gives it to them as I don't see Charles giving any honours to any of his siblings. I like Charles but it is clear that he isn't that close to his brothers and really I don't see him wanting to give them any honours at all. I can see him wanting them to be phased out of the public life altogether and only appear at really big family affairs, although he will ensure that they won't be left with no income or anything like that.

I don't even think they will continue going to Sandringham for Christmas once Charles is King.
I do not agree with you. You just cannot say Prince Charles is not close to them so he wont give them titles and phase them out (1st of all how can we say he is not close to them..Should he hug them and put a broad plastic smile in front of media..OK leav it)..Such things are not done solely on monarch's preferences or instincts..Several factors are considered..such as the public standing of the person concerned, and more important, the necessity to increase the public standing of the person concerned..Do you seriously think Queen is close to Charles/Anne than Andrew/Edward to make them KT? Does any1 on TRF think so?
You just see..so much media coverage was given and many people (not ones on TRF) noticed Order of Thistle for 1st time, cos William was given..What would have happend if Andrew was given..forget any positive coverage..If at all they covered, they would have dug up all the nonsonse, and Sarah would have gone to oprah and cried for not inviting her..No one would care for Queen or Thistle. And for Edward it would be just a small column..I am not de-meaning them..I respect Prince Edward especially for his silent work..but thats the way monarchy works..pump the future ones and the central line..
Actually Princess Anne was lucky to get(earn) the "hard-working royal" image well in advance (before new-generation-surge). Otherwise even she might have been left out.
Wat u say
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  #1409  
Old 10-04-2012, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by HRHThePrince View Post
I think Prince Charles is only concerned with keeping funds in his pocket... and that is the real reason of why he wants a slimmed down Royal Family. The less duties performed by royals the less he has to repay the Treasury. And I believe in Williams reign Princesses Beatrice & Eugenie will perform royal duties. Just think about it... the Gloucesters & Kents are getting older. William & Harry's children won't even be of age... there gonna need a pair of extra hands. And like Prince Andrew was saying, they're the only Princesses of their generation. I don't see the reason of why Charles wants to exclude them...
No, Charles is concerned with ensuring that the monarchy survives over the next 20-30 years. He wants to be able to hand over the reins to his son with the 'Firm' in rude health. Part of this is in acknowledging that the British people DO NOT want to have to be paying to secure anything other than the most senior royals. When the BRF are having to justify every penny they spend, to be ever more transparent with their finances, and frankly face several potentially very lean years as the British state tries to dig itself out of near insolvency, the BRF are going to have to demonstrate more and more value for money.

Unfortunately, this is very likely to mean that in the decades ahead, the future sovereigns just are not going to be able to justify bankrolling relatives who are not in close proximity to the throne in the way that the Queen has. Ask the British people if they want Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie performing royal duties and I'd bet the answer would be a resounding 'no'.
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  #1410  
Old 10-05-2012, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EIIR View Post
What about the Order of Merit? When did Charles receive his OM?
Charles received his Order of the Merit in 2002, so I strongly doubt William will be invested any time soon even though there is currently one vacant position.

The Order of Merit is usually given in recognition of distinguished service in the armed forces, or for contribution to art, literature. Only three royals - the Queen, Prince Philip and Prince Charles - are currently members of the Order. It is is limited to 24 people from the Commonwealth Realms, plus honorary members (the latter consisting of only one person, Nelson Mandela). There are only 23 members right now so in theory, William could become member of the Order of Merit at any time, but as I've already mentioned, I strongly doubt that's on the cards.
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  #1411  
Old 10-05-2012, 03:12 AM
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I guess Prince Harry won't be invested as anything until Charles is king.
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  #1412  
Old 10-05-2012, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
I maintain that LPs are only needed for the creation of peerages. All other styles and titles, including prince/ss can bestowed by warrant, press release or verbal declaration. Princess Alice was style as a princess without LPs as was the Queen Mother on her death
Princess Alice was never a true Princess in her own right.
When Prince Henry, Duke of Gloucester died, Alice got the Queen's permission to use the the title and style Her Royal HIghness Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester, instead of Her Royal Highness The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester. Princess Alice followed the example of her sister-in-law, Princess Marina, who also didn't want to be known as the Dowager Duchess; the difference, however, was that Marina was a Princess (of Greece and Denmark) from birth, while Alice was not.

Alice was allowed to be known as Princess Alice as a courtesy from the Queen, who felt that, as a wife (widow, by the time) of a British Prince, there were no obstacles for the Duchess to use the title.However, again, Alice was never legally a Princess since she wasn't born one (like Marina) or created a Princess by Letters Parent.


The Queen Mother was never, ever a Princess in her own right. She was Lady Bows-Lyon from 1904 to 1923, The Duchess of York from 1923 to 1936, The Queen (Consort) from 1936 to 1952 and The Queen Mother from 1952 to 2002. The last title is automatic for a Dowager Queen Consort who is also the mother of the present Monarch, so no Letters Patent were indeed required. For instance, Queen Mary was The Queen Mother from 1936 to 1952 (during the reigns of Edward VIII and George VI). Usually, the additions "Consort", "Dowager" or "Mother" are not used and all four types of Queens (Queen Regnant, Queen Consort, Queen Mother and Queen Dowager) are simply known as Her Majesty Queen Name.

The only reason Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother actually used the addition was to avoid any confusion with her daughter, also Queen Elizabeth.
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  #1413  
Old 10-05-2012, 10:10 AM
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I maintain that LPs are only required for the creation of peerages. All other styles and titles, including prince/ss can bestowed by warrant, press release or verbal declaration. Princess Alice (Dowager Duchess of Gloucester ) was style as a princess without LPs as was the Queen Mother on her death
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  #1414  
Old 10-05-2012, 10:11 AM
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My point is they were both style as princesses without the need for LPs. HM's will and pleasure was all that was required.
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  #1415  
Old 10-05-2012, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
Princess Alice was never a true Princess in her own right.
When Prince Henry, Duke of Gloucester died, Alice got the Queen's permission to use the the title and style Her Royal HIghness Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester, instead of Her Royal Highness The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester. Princess Alice followed the example of her sister-in-law, Princess Marina, who also didn't want to be known as the Dowager Duchess; the difference, however, was that Marina was a Princess (of Greece and Denmark) from birth, while Alice was not.

Alice was allowed to be known as Princess Alice as a courtesy from the Queen, who felt that, as a wife (widow, by the time) of a British Prince, there were no obstacles for the Duchess to use the title.However, again, Alice was never legally a Princess since she wasn't born one (like Marina) or created a Princess by Letters Parent.


The Queen Mother was never, ever a Princess in her own right. She was Lady Bows-Lyon from 1904 to 1923, The Duchess of York from 1923 to 1936, The Queen (Consort) from 1936 to 1952 and The Queen Mother from 1952 to 2002. The last title is automatic for a Dowager Queen Consort who is also the mother of the present Monarch, so no Letters Patent were indeed required. For instance, Queen Mary was The Queen Mother from 1936 to 1952 (during the reigns of Edward VIII and George VI). Usually, the additions "Consort", "Dowager" or "Mother" are not used and all four types of Queens (Queen Regnant, Queen Consort, Queen Mother and Queen Dowager) are simply known as Her Majesty Queen Name.

The only reason Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother actually used the addition was to avoid any confusion with her daughter, also Queen Elizabeth.
So you appear to be saying that LPs are not needed to create the style and titles of (Prince/ss) other than peerages or maybe I'm missing something.
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  #1416  
Old 10-05-2012, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
Princess Alice was never a true Princess in her own right.
When Prince Henry, Duke of Gloucester died, Alice got the Queen's permission to use the the title and style Her Royal HIghness Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester, instead of Her Royal Highness The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester. Princess Alice followed the example of her sister-in-law, Princess Marina, who also didn't want to be known as the Dowager Duchess; the difference, however, was that Marina was a Princess (of Greece and Denmark) from birth, while Alice was not.

Alice was allowed to be known as Princess Alice as a courtesy from the Queen, who felt that, as a wife (widow, by the time) of a British Prince, there were no obstacles for the Duchess to use the title.However, again, Alice was never legally a Princess since she wasn't born one (like Marina) or created a Princess by Letters Parent.


The Queen Mother was never, ever a Princess in her own right. She was Lady Bows-Lyon from 1904 to 1923, The Duchess of York from 1923 to 1936, The Queen (Consort) from 1936 to 1952 and The Queen Mother from 1952 to 2002. The last title is automatic for a Dowager Queen Consort who is also the mother of the present Monarch, so no Letters Patent were indeed required. For instance, Queen Mary was The Queen Mother from 1936 to 1952 (during the reigns of Edward VIII and George VI). Usually, the additions "Consort", "Dowager" or "Mother" are not used and all four types of Queens (Queen Regnant, Queen Consort, Queen Mother and Queen Dowager) are simply known as Her Majesty Queen Name.

The only reason Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother actually used the addition was to avoid any confusion with her daughter, also Queen Elizabeth.
Princess Marina's title of Princess of Greece and Denmark had no status in the UK so her styling as Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent was exactly the same as Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester. It was merely a courtesy granted by the Queen to her aunts. You will note that with her husband she took the time to actually create him a Prince of the United Kingdom since her father had merely granted him the style of HRH with the title of Duke of Edinburgh.
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  #1417  
Old 10-05-2012, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
So you appear to be saying that LPs are not needed to create the style and titles of (Prince/ss) other than peerages or maybe I'm missing something.
What I'm saying is that the titles of Princes and Princesses don't need to be created at all: they are automatic.
However, whenever they do need to be created (for those who are not otherwise entitled to it), then Letters Patent would be needed.
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  #1418  
Old 10-05-2012, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Princess Marina's title of Princess of Greece and Denmark had no status in the UK so her styling as Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent was exactly the same as Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester. It was merely a courtesy granted by the Queen to her aunts. You will note that with her husband she took the time to actually create him a Prince of the United Kingdom since her father had merely granted him the style of HRH with the title of Duke of Edinburgh.
I have to disagree with you, NGalitzine.
Princess Marina did become Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Kent upon her marriage. However, she also remained a Princess of Greece and Denmark as she was born one. Thus, upon her elder son's wedding she simply reverted to her titles by birth.

Of course, her decision to be known as Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent instead of the traditional The Dowager Duchess of Kent still needed approval from the Queen, which was dully granted in 1961, just before the current Duke and Duchess of Kent's marriage.

Prince Philip is a different case: he relinquished all his foreign titles and styles (unlike Marina, who never did that), so had to be created a Prince anew.
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  #1419  
Old 10-05-2012, 11:43 AM
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Investitures for Prince Harry is coming no doubt about it.
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  #1420  
Old 10-05-2012, 11:49 AM
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Investitures for Prince Harry is coming no doubt about it.
During the reign of King Charles - undoubtedly so.
During the reign of Queen Elizabeth? Unlikely.

He'll almost certainly not be invested as Knight of the Order of Thistle; although William and Charles are members of the Order, neither Prince Andrew, nor Prince Edward are, so it's unlikely the Queen will invest her younger grandson ahead of her own sons.

Order of the Garter is technically possible but not probable. William was invested to signify his role as Heir to the Throne, so there is no reason for Harry to be created a Royal Knight. Besides, I'm sure Prince Charles would like to invest at least one of his sons during his own reign.

Order of Bath, Order of Merit, Royal Victorian Order and others are somewhat unlikely too. If I'm not mistaken, Harry already has the Queen's Family Order * - which is pretty much all he can expect until his father is King.


* My mistake, Prince Harry of course doesn't have the Family Order, which is for women-only. He has Jubilee medals. Thanks to NGalitzine for the correction.
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