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  #1401  
Old 10-04-2012, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by HRHThePrince View Post
I think Prince Charles is only concerned with keeping funds in his pocket... and that is the real reason of why he wants a slimmed down Royal Family. The less duties performed by royals the less he has to repay the Treasury. And I believe in Williams reign Princesses Beatrice & Eugenie will perform royal duties. Just think about it... the Gloucesters & Kents are getting older. William & Harry's children won't even be of age... there gonna need a pair of extra hands. And like Prince Andrew was saying, they're the only Princesses of their generation. I don't see the reason of why Charles wants to exclude them...
No, Charles is concerned with ensuring that the monarchy survives over the next 20-30 years. He wants to be able to hand over the reins to his son with the 'Firm' in rude health. Part of this is in acknowledging that the British people DO NOT want to have to be paying to secure anything other than the most senior royals. When the BRF are having to justify every penny they spend, to be ever more transparent with their finances, and frankly face several potentially very lean years as the British state tries to dig itself out of near insolvency, the BRF are going to have to demonstrate more and more value for money.

Unfortunately, this is very likely to mean that in the decades ahead, the future sovereigns just are not going to be able to justify bankrolling relatives who are not in close proximity to the throne in the way that the Queen has. Ask the British people if they want Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie performing royal duties and I'd bet the answer would be a resounding 'no'.
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  #1402  
Old 10-05-2012, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by EIIR View Post
What about the Order of Merit? When did Charles receive his OM?
Charles received his Order of the Merit in 2002, so I strongly doubt William will be invested any time soon even though there is currently one vacant position.

The Order of Merit is usually given in recognition of distinguished service in the armed forces, or for contribution to art, literature. Only three royals - the Queen, Prince Philip and Prince Charles - are currently members of the Order. It is is limited to 24 people from the Commonwealth Realms, plus honorary members (the latter consisting of only one person, Nelson Mandela). There are only 23 members right now so in theory, William could become member of the Order of Merit at any time, but as I've already mentioned, I strongly doubt that's on the cards.
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  #1403  
Old 10-05-2012, 03:12 AM
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I guess Prince Harry won't be invested as anything until Charles is king.
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  #1404  
Old 10-05-2012, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
I maintain that LPs are only needed for the creation of peerages. All other styles and titles, including prince/ss can bestowed by warrant, press release or verbal declaration. Princess Alice was style as a princess without LPs as was the Queen Mother on her death
Princess Alice was never a true Princess in her own right.
When Prince Henry, Duke of Gloucester died, Alice got the Queen's permission to use the the title and style Her Royal HIghness Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester, instead of Her Royal Highness The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester. Princess Alice followed the example of her sister-in-law, Princess Marina, who also didn't want to be known as the Dowager Duchess; the difference, however, was that Marina was a Princess (of Greece and Denmark) from birth, while Alice was not.

Alice was allowed to be known as Princess Alice as a courtesy from the Queen, who felt that, as a wife (widow, by the time) of a British Prince, there were no obstacles for the Duchess to use the title.However, again, Alice was never legally a Princess since she wasn't born one (like Marina) or created a Princess by Letters Parent.


The Queen Mother was never, ever a Princess in her own right. She was Lady Bows-Lyon from 1904 to 1923, The Duchess of York from 1923 to 1936, The Queen (Consort) from 1936 to 1952 and The Queen Mother from 1952 to 2002. The last title is automatic for a Dowager Queen Consort who is also the mother of the present Monarch, so no Letters Patent were indeed required. For instance, Queen Mary was The Queen Mother from 1936 to 1952 (during the reigns of Edward VIII and George VI). Usually, the additions "Consort", "Dowager" or "Mother" are not used and all four types of Queens (Queen Regnant, Queen Consort, Queen Mother and Queen Dowager) are simply known as Her Majesty Queen Name.

The only reason Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother actually used the addition was to avoid any confusion with her daughter, also Queen Elizabeth.
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  #1405  
Old 10-05-2012, 10:10 AM
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I maintain that LPs are only required for the creation of peerages. All other styles and titles, including prince/ss can bestowed by warrant, press release or verbal declaration. Princess Alice (Dowager Duchess of Gloucester ) was style as a princess without LPs as was the Queen Mother on her death
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  #1406  
Old 10-05-2012, 10:11 AM
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My point is they were both style as princesses without the need for LPs. HM's will and pleasure was all that was required.
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  #1407  
Old 10-05-2012, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
Princess Alice was never a true Princess in her own right.
When Prince Henry, Duke of Gloucester died, Alice got the Queen's permission to use the the title and style Her Royal HIghness Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester, instead of Her Royal Highness The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester. Princess Alice followed the example of her sister-in-law, Princess Marina, who also didn't want to be known as the Dowager Duchess; the difference, however, was that Marina was a Princess (of Greece and Denmark) from birth, while Alice was not.

Alice was allowed to be known as Princess Alice as a courtesy from the Queen, who felt that, as a wife (widow, by the time) of a British Prince, there were no obstacles for the Duchess to use the title.However, again, Alice was never legally a Princess since she wasn't born one (like Marina) or created a Princess by Letters Parent.


The Queen Mother was never, ever a Princess in her own right. She was Lady Bows-Lyon from 1904 to 1923, The Duchess of York from 1923 to 1936, The Queen (Consort) from 1936 to 1952 and The Queen Mother from 1952 to 2002. The last title is automatic for a Dowager Queen Consort who is also the mother of the present Monarch, so no Letters Patent were indeed required. For instance, Queen Mary was The Queen Mother from 1936 to 1952 (during the reigns of Edward VIII and George VI). Usually, the additions "Consort", "Dowager" or "Mother" are not used and all four types of Queens (Queen Regnant, Queen Consort, Queen Mother and Queen Dowager) are simply known as Her Majesty Queen Name.

The only reason Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother actually used the addition was to avoid any confusion with her daughter, also Queen Elizabeth.
So you appear to be saying that LPs are not needed to create the style and titles of (Prince/ss) other than peerages or maybe I'm missing something.
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  #1408  
Old 10-05-2012, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
Princess Alice was never a true Princess in her own right.
When Prince Henry, Duke of Gloucester died, Alice got the Queen's permission to use the the title and style Her Royal HIghness Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester, instead of Her Royal Highness The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester. Princess Alice followed the example of her sister-in-law, Princess Marina, who also didn't want to be known as the Dowager Duchess; the difference, however, was that Marina was a Princess (of Greece and Denmark) from birth, while Alice was not.

Alice was allowed to be known as Princess Alice as a courtesy from the Queen, who felt that, as a wife (widow, by the time) of a British Prince, there were no obstacles for the Duchess to use the title.However, again, Alice was never legally a Princess since she wasn't born one (like Marina) or created a Princess by Letters Parent.


The Queen Mother was never, ever a Princess in her own right. She was Lady Bows-Lyon from 1904 to 1923, The Duchess of York from 1923 to 1936, The Queen (Consort) from 1936 to 1952 and The Queen Mother from 1952 to 2002. The last title is automatic for a Dowager Queen Consort who is also the mother of the present Monarch, so no Letters Patent were indeed required. For instance, Queen Mary was The Queen Mother from 1936 to 1952 (during the reigns of Edward VIII and George VI). Usually, the additions "Consort", "Dowager" or "Mother" are not used and all four types of Queens (Queen Regnant, Queen Consort, Queen Mother and Queen Dowager) are simply known as Her Majesty Queen Name.

The only reason Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother actually used the addition was to avoid any confusion with her daughter, also Queen Elizabeth.
Princess Marina's title of Princess of Greece and Denmark had no status in the UK so her styling as Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent was exactly the same as Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester. It was merely a courtesy granted by the Queen to her aunts. You will note that with her husband she took the time to actually create him a Prince of the United Kingdom since her father had merely granted him the style of HRH with the title of Duke of Edinburgh.
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  #1409  
Old 10-05-2012, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
So you appear to be saying that LPs are not needed to create the style and titles of (Prince/ss) other than peerages or maybe I'm missing something.
What I'm saying is that the titles of Princes and Princesses don't need to be created at all: they are automatic.
However, whenever they do need to be created (for those who are not otherwise entitled to it), then Letters Patent would be needed.
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  #1410  
Old 10-05-2012, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Princess Marina's title of Princess of Greece and Denmark had no status in the UK so her styling as Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent was exactly the same as Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester. It was merely a courtesy granted by the Queen to her aunts. You will note that with her husband she took the time to actually create him a Prince of the United Kingdom since her father had merely granted him the style of HRH with the title of Duke of Edinburgh.
I have to disagree with you, NGalitzine.
Princess Marina did become Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Kent upon her marriage. However, she also remained a Princess of Greece and Denmark as she was born one. Thus, upon her elder son's wedding she simply reverted to her titles by birth.

Of course, her decision to be known as Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent instead of the traditional The Dowager Duchess of Kent still needed approval from the Queen, which was dully granted in 1961, just before the current Duke and Duchess of Kent's marriage.

Prince Philip is a different case: he relinquished all his foreign titles and styles (unlike Marina, who never did that), so had to be created a Prince anew.
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  #1411  
Old 10-05-2012, 11:43 AM
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Investitures for Prince Harry is coming no doubt about it.
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  #1412  
Old 10-05-2012, 11:49 AM
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Investitures for Prince Harry is coming no doubt about it.
During the reign of King Charles - undoubtedly so.
During the reign of Queen Elizabeth? Unlikely.

He'll almost certainly not be invested as Knight of the Order of Thistle; although William and Charles are members of the Order, neither Prince Andrew, nor Prince Edward are, so it's unlikely the Queen will invest her younger grandson ahead of her own sons.

Order of the Garter is technically possible but not probable. William was invested to signify his role as Heir to the Throne, so there is no reason for Harry to be created a Royal Knight. Besides, I'm sure Prince Charles would like to invest at least one of his sons during his own reign.

Order of Bath, Order of Merit, Royal Victorian Order and others are somewhat unlikely too. If I'm not mistaken, Harry already has the Queen's Family Order * - which is pretty much all he can expect until his father is King.


* My mistake, Prince Harry of course doesn't have the Family Order, which is for women-only. He has Jubilee medals. Thanks to NGalitzine for the correction.
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  #1413  
Old 10-05-2012, 11:51 AM
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Investitures for Prince Harry is coming no doubt about it.
Anne , Andrew and Edward were all in their 40s before the were created Knights of Garter. Charles as Prince of Wales was created in 1958 (age 10)
I don't think Henry will be invested until Charles is KIng, IMO.
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  #1414  
Old 10-05-2012, 11:59 AM
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Foreign titles have no status in the UK and any use of them in the UK required a royal warrant. Marina may never have given up her maiden titles but they had no status in the UK. If Marina had simply reverted to her maiden titles she would have been HRH Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark, Duchess of Kent. While I am sure HM took into consideration Marinas former status, I maintain that in the UK her usage of "Princess" was the same as for Alice, merely a social courtesy because no woman wants to be known as a Dowager, not a recognotion of her Greek titles.
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  #1415  
Old 10-05-2012, 12:05 PM
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Well, at the moment Prince Henry have The Queen's Golden Jubilee Medal and Diamond Jubilee Medal. Those medals are just to mark the years of The Queen's reign.

I think with Harry with the years of Harry's service to Her Majesty on representing her and serving in Afghanistan, an honour from The Queen is coming his way. I really have no doubt about that. There will be honours for Charles to give his sons when he come to the throne. The biggest one under Charles's reign will be investing his heir, The Duke of Cambridge, as The Prince of Wales.

The Royal Family Order of Queen Elizabeth II is only for female members of the royal family. I think that's one of the first that's going to awarded to HRH The Duchess of Cambridge at some point.
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  #1416  
Old 10-05-2012, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
If I'm not mistaken, Harry already has the Queen's Family Order
What order would that be? As far as i know the Royal Family order is restricted to women. Right now Harry I think only has the Golden and Diamond Jubilee Medals and the Afghanistan service medal.

HM started her younger sons off as CVO and then a number of years later promoted them to KCVO and then GCVO.

I can see her giving Harry the CVO but higher orders waiting until his fathers accession.
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  #1417  
Old 10-05-2012, 12:09 PM
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What order would that be? As far as i know the Royal Family order is restricted to women. Right now Harry I think only has the Golden and Diamond Jubilee Medals and the Afghanistan service medal.
My mistake, thanks for corrected.
I meant the Jubilee Medal, not Family Order (which is indeed for woman only).
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  #1418  
Old 10-05-2012, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
What order would that be? As far as i know the Royal Family order is restricted to women. Right now Harry I think only has the Golden and Diamond Jubilee Medals and the Afghanistan service medal.

HM started her younger sons off as CVO and then a number of years later promoted them to KCVO and then GCVO.

I can see her giving Harry the CVO but higher orders waiting until his fathers accession.
You're correct. Royal Family Orders are for titled women or other women in extraordinary circumstances.
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  #1419  
Old 10-05-2012, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Foreign titles have no status in the UK and any use of them in the UK required a royal warrant. Marina may never have given up her maiden titles but they had no status in the UK. If Marina had simply reverted to her maiden titles she would have been HRH Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark, Duchess of Kent. While I am sure HM took into consideration Marinas former status, I maintain that in the UK her usage of "Princess" was the same as for Alice, merely a social courtesy because no woman wants to be known as a Dowager, not a recognotion of her Greek titles.
Marina didn't use the title Princess Marina of the United Kingdom (to which she was not entitled), just Her Royal Highness Princess Marina - title and style she was entitled to from birth. At least, that's my opinion on this matter, although I certainly respect your viewpoint as well.
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  #1420  
Old 10-05-2012, 12:12 PM
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The only honour I can see Henry receiving during HM reign and provided he marries is a peerage, IMO
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