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  #1321  
Old 07-08-2012, 07:01 PM
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To be succinct, "of X" means the holder of the title has (or had) territories in X, came from X, or was strongly associated with X. Last name as a title (like Earl Spencer) means that the original last name was incorporated into his title.

For instance, the first Earl Spencer was the son of Honourable John Spencer; thus, Spencer was his surname before he was elevated to the rank of an Earl. Initially, he was created Baron Spencer of Althorp (Spencer still being his last name, not title, at the point), and then George III created him Viscount Althorp and Earl Spencer.

The "of" indicates a place, sometimes territorial domain and/or the place the holder of the title originated from or was strongly associated with. For instance Marquesses and later Dukes of Buckingham originated from Buckingham and/or owned territories in Buckinghamshire, the Duke of York (such as Richard III) usually had power over that region, etc. In times, the titles remained but the lands were gone, so "of X" became pretty meaningless.


There is no difference in ranking or precedence - just difference of wording and/or in history of the title. Ranking of titles depends on the peerage in which they were created. In order of precedence, those peerages are:
- Peerages of the Kingdom of England (in order of creation)
- Peerages of the Kingdom of Scotland (in order of creation)
- Peerages of the Kingdom of Great Britain (in order of creation)
- Peerages of the Kingdom of Ireland (in order of creation)
- Peerages of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
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  #1322  
Old 07-08-2012, 07:14 PM
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As always, thank you for the response and the detailed explanation, Artemisia.
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  #1323  
Old 07-08-2012, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post

With respect, Iluvbertie, while a Royal Highness is a style, a Prince/Princess is very much a title.
Prince/Princess is a style in the UK, not a title. Princes and princesses hold royal rank by virtue of their relationship to The Sovereign, but remain commoners unless granted a Peerage. At that point, they are titled by their Peerage.
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  #1324  
Old 07-08-2012, 10:47 PM
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HRH is the style. Prince of the United Kingdom is a title. It is not a peerage but it is a title just as Prince of Wales is a title but not a peerage.
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  #1325  
Old 07-08-2012, 10:53 PM
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Prince or Princess is a style as it isn't inheritable, and is held by commoners. A title is held by a peer of the realm - princes and princesses aren't peers of the realm. Prince of Wales is a special title but not a peerage, but attached to it is Earl of Chester which is a peerage.
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  #1326  
Old 07-08-2012, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
HRH is the style. Prince of the United Kingdom is a title. It is not a peerage but it is a title just as Prince of Wales is a title but not a peerage.
They are both styles governed by the will of The Sovereign for members of the royal family in descent and succession to the throne. It is a Germanic practice brought to Britain in 1714 by the Hanovers.

Anyone who is not The Sovereign or a Peer has no title and is a commoner.
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  #1327  
Old 07-08-2012, 11:00 PM
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According to the letters patent "Prince" is a titular dignity, which I would define as a title. HRH is the style, much like your garden variety duke enjoys the style of His Grace or the Aga Khan enjoys the style of HH.
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  #1328  
Old 07-09-2012, 04:02 PM
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That is what I always believed to be true as well.
The fact "prince" isn't an inheritable title doesn't say much; life peerages can not be inherited either, and yet they are definitely titles.

For instance, this is what the Official website of the British Monarchy has to say about the Earl of Wessex' titles and styles:
Quote:
His Royal Highness was born with the title Prince Edward, as he is a son of The Sovereign. He was created The Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn on his marriage in 1999; at the same time it was announced that His Royal Highness will eventually succeed to the title of The Duke of Edinburgh.
In every single page, whether on the BRF website, the PoW website or the much-maligned Wikipedia, Prince and Princess are named as titles.
Styles designate the status - Imperial, Royal, Serene, Illustrious (etc) Highness.
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  #1329  
Old 07-09-2012, 04:04 PM
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That was my belief, too.
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  #1330  
Old 07-09-2012, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine
Well Charles and Anne were born HRH and Prince and Princess because of letters patent issued by their grandfather George VI.
Just checking with you! When it is said they were made HRH and Prince and Princess by the Queen's father does that not mean it is set and they are those titles because he made them so not because their mother became Queen?
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  #1331  
Old 07-09-2012, 04:40 PM
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Even if George VI hadn't issued Letters Patent granting all (future) children of the Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh the style of Royal Highness and the title of British Prince/Princess, they would automatically have them the moment their mother became Queen.

According to Letters Patent 1917, only the following people have the right to the style of Royal Highness, and the title of British Prince or Princess:
- Sons of the Sovereign
- Daughters of the Sovereign
- Male-line grandchildren of the Sovereign
- The eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales
- Wives of the British Princes

When Charles and Anne were born, their mother was still Heiress Presumptive to the Throne; as female-line grandchildren of the Sovereign, they were not eligible to have any styles or titles but those they could inherit from their father. Thus, Prince Charles would have, under normal circumstances, been Charles Mountbatten, Earl of Merioneth, and Anne - The Lady Anne Mountbatten. To avoid the situation when the children of the future Queen would be "mere" Lords and Ladies, George VI issued Letters Patent 1948 granting the children of Princess Elizabeth and the Duke of Edinburgh princely titles and the style Royal Highness.

Prince Andrew and Prince Edward would have been Princes and Royal Highnesses anyway, even if the Letters Patent hadn't been issued, as they were born during their mother's reign (the Sovereign's sons).
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  #1332  
Old 07-09-2012, 05:16 PM
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The Letters Patent of 1917 limits the style and rank of HRH Prince/Princess to the children of The Sovereign, the male-line grandchildren and the eldest son of the eldest son of The Prince of Wales. Grandchildren of sons of The Sovereign are styled as the children of a Duke ("Lord/Lady Windsor").

The status of wives is not spelled out implicitly, which raised questions later when George VI asked the Lord Chancellor and Home Secretary to tender advice as to whether Wallis Simpson had the right to automatically become Her Royal Highness The Princess Edward upon marriage to the former King.

The conclusion in 1937 was a wife automatically takes the style and title of her husband upon marriage in common law, but when it came to royal rank, The Sovereign can bestow or deny the style of HRH Prince/Princess at any time as the fount of honour.
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  #1333  
Old 07-09-2012, 07:22 PM
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Are Lords and Ladies like the children of HM's cousins (like Lord Frederick and Lady Gabriella Windsor) styled His/Her Highness Lord/Lady, the Lord/Lady or just Lord/Lady *insert name here*?.
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  #1334  
Old 07-09-2012, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia View Post
Are Lords and Ladies like the children of HM's cousins (like Lord Frederick and Lady Gabriella Windsor) styled His/Her Highness Lord/Lady, the Lord/Lady or just Lord/Lady *insert name here*?.
In Britain, the style HH (His/Her Highness) is very rarely used, and practically never for members of the British Royal Family, including extended members.
Lord Frederick and Lady Gabriella are thus styled simply as The Lord Frederick Windsor and The Lady Gabriella Windsor, with no additional styles or titles.

The same is true for other members of the extended royal family, unless they are entitled to certain styles as male line grandchildren of the Sovereign or the eldest sons of the Peers (the latter use their fathers' second most important title as their courtesy styles). For instance, the son of the Duke of Gloucester is not a Royal Highness (as a great-grandchild, not a grandchild, of a Sovereign); however, as his father's eldest son, he is styled as Earl Ulster, while his own son, Xan Richard Windsor, is styled as Lord Culloden (the Duke of Gloucester's second and third most important titles).
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  #1335  
Old 07-28-2012, 07:09 PM
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I have a question. I know Prince Andrews daughters Beatrice and Eugenie are Princesses. How come Princess Anne's children Zara and Peter do not possess titles?
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  #1336  
Old 07-28-2012, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Victoria
I have a question. I know Prince Andrews daughters Beatrice and Eugenie are Princesses. How come Princess Anne's children Zara and Peter do not possess titles?

Princess Anne turned down the offer for titles for them. Anne technically couldn't pass on titles to them, but The Queen offered titles, (don't know if it was lord/lady or whatever) :)
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  #1337  
Old 07-28-2012, 07:46 PM
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IIRC, a title was offered to Zara and Peter's father, which is the only way the children would have been born titled. But, Princess Anne and Mr. Phillips decided against it, opting for a different kind of life for their children.

I do not know for certain that HM has offered another time, to bestow titles on the children - I think not, but someone more knowledgeable will come along and confirm or correct what I just said.
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  #1338  
Old 07-28-2012, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Penelope

Princess Anne turned down the offer for titles for them. Anne technically couldn't pass on titles to them, but The Queen offered titles, (don't know if it was lord/lady or whatever) :)
So could she not pass a title because only a male royal can bestow one or is it based simply on Anne's choosing to go the different route. I was always kind of confused by her being referred to as Princess Royal.
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  #1339  
Old 07-28-2012, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKaimi
IIRC, a title was offered to Zara and Peter's father, which is the only way the children would have been born titled. But, Princess Anne and Mr. Phillips decided against it, opting for a different kind of life for their children.

I do not know for certain that HM has offered another time, to bestow titles on the children - I think not, but someone more knowledgeable will come along and confirm or correct what I just said.
I appreciate all of the answers. Always been intrigued by the royal family.
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  #1340  
Old 07-28-2012, 10:31 PM
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"Princess Royal" is a courtesy title bestowed by British monarchs on their eldest daughters. While certainly an honour, it does not carry any particular or additional significance apart from the title itself.
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